Am I starting to do B-level things?

[lewdo26]

Forgive me for tooting my horn a little here... But I need you guys' assessment. I've been trying to quantify my improvement in practice. I think it's fair to say that I'm a C player, but I want to know if I'm in the cusp of a quantum leap:

Today I ran 53 balls not in 14.1 but by simply spreading all the balls out. So that is 3 racks and a half.

My high run in straight pool per se is only 27, attributable in part to my not playing the game as much as I should.

I ran a 2 pack (9 ball) on the 9 footers a couple times (no combos), and a 3 pack on the barbox (2 combos) playing this guy for money a little while ago.

I nearly ran a rack of rotation on the barbox too, knocking them in by myself over a few brews, missing the last ball.

I am beating the 8 ball ghost regularly now without the opponent's balls. That is, just stripes or solids and the 8 ball.

I don't play much one pocket unfortunately, so I don't know what my high run could be in that game. Don't really play any banks either.

What do you guys think? Thanks for indulging me...

 

[ccn7]

Sounds very impressive to me. I consider myself a C class players so coming from me maybe its not that impressive to say maybe a A class player. i say as long as the number of balls dropped keep going up your doing a mighty fine job.Keep up the good strokin.

 

[lewdo26]

Sounds very impressive to me. I consider myself a C class players so coming from me maybe its not that impressive to say maybe a A class player. i say as long as the number of balls dropped keep going up your doing a mighty fine job.Keep up the good strokin.

It's definetely not A level! Like, sjm is an A+ class player, and he's come close to running a hundred a few times, and has run an 8 pack, I think. Which is to say, I'm 1/4 the player he is, if that.

But thanks for your input and encouragement, ccn7. Stroke 'em well...

I'm guessing I could become a B player in 2007 (my initial goal was actually 2008) if I put a lot of work in.

 

[Luv2RunOut1]

Thank you for pointing out a very fundamental problem in mens pool. Because we don't have an average like in bowling or golf it is almost impossible to asses with consistency how good a person is. Now we can oh he is good, or really good, or yeah he plays about my speed. But what does that mean? Quantify that with an actual precise definition. Well you can't. The only thing that comes close is accu-stats, but even on the west coast tour I play on, nobody uses that. So we will constantly be in no mans land when it comes to knowing how well we play in relation to others until we can come up with a workable and consistent definition of what exactly constitutes each and every level of play.

 

[Maniac]

Forgive me for tooting my horn a little here... But I need you guys' assessment. I've been trying to quantify my improvement in practice. I think it's fair to say that I'm a C player, but I want to know if I'm in the cusp of a quantum leap:

What do you guys think? Thanks for indulging me...

I think you would kick my rear-end on most given nights. Keep up the improvement. If you're young enough, you've got nowhere to go but uphill.

Maniac

 

[Cory in DC]

Forgive me for tooting my horn a little here... But I need you guys' assessment. I've been trying to quantify my improvement in practice. I think it's fair to say that I'm a C player, but I want to know if I'm in the cusp of a quantum leap:

Today I ran 53 balls not in 14.1 but by simply spreading all the balls out. So that is 3 racks and a half.

My high run in straight pool per se is only 27, attributable in part to my not playing the game as much as I should.

I ran a 2 pack (9 ball) on the 9 footers a couple times (no combos), and a 3 pack on the barbox (2 combos) playing this guy for money a little while ago.

I nearly ran a rack of rotation on the barbox too, knocking them in by myself over a few brews, missing the last ball.

I am beating the 8 ball ghost regularly now without the opponent's balls. That is, just stripes or solids and the 8 ball.

I don't play much one pocket unfortunately, so I don't know what my high run could be in that game. Don't really play any banks either.

What do you guys think? Thanks for indulging me...

You're there, or very close, by my subjective definition of a B player (albeit perhaps on the low end). Even a straight pool run of 27 means you could make a dozen balls, shape the break out shot, and run another dozern or so. Not many C players can maintain that level of consistency for two racks.

Cory

 

[Cornerman]

There are a few grading guides out there, most notably the repost of Bob Campbell's from the All About Pool Magazine.

Here's another guideline for 8-ball.

If you're left a wide open table with most of the balls still there and your opponent thinks:

"he can't get out," - you're in the D range.

"he could get out," - you're in the C range.

"he should get out," - B range.

"he's out," - A range

HTH

Fred

 

[lewdo26]

There are a few grading guides out there, most notably the repost of Bob Campbell's from the All About Pool Magazine.

Here's another guideline for 8-ball.

If you're left a wide open table with most of the balls still there and your opponent thinks:

"he can't get out," - you're in the D range.

"he could get out," - you're in the C range.

"he should get out," - B range.

"he's out," - A range

HTH

Fred

That's an interesting way of rating things... On the 9 footers I'd be between C and B range, I would think. And on the barbox (Valleys with minimumly decent equipment) I fully expect to get out from an open position and from most layouts with only one problem ball with a solution to it. Thanks Fred.

 

[lewdo26]

Thank you for pointing out a very fundamental problem in mens pool. Because we don't have an average like in bowling or golf it is almost impossible to asses with consistency how good a person is. Now we can oh he is good, or really good, or yeah he plays about my speed. But what does that mean? Quantify that with an actual precise definition. Well you can't. The only thing that comes close is accu-stats, but even on the west coast tour I play on, nobody uses that. So we will constantly be in no mans land when it comes to knowing how well we play in relation to others until we can come up with a workable and consistent definition of what exactly constitutes each and every level of play.

100% agreed. In chess they have ratings. It's not disputable where you stack up in relation to other players. It lends the game consistency and legitimacy, IMO.

I notice that most of what posters from other parts of the country call a "B" player, here in New York we would call Cs... But even here things are getting watered down, in the tri-state tour for instance... I've seen C+'s that will rarely ever run a rack of 9 ball, and should therefore be D+ or Cs, IMHO.

I like the BD definition, even though still very subjective:

D players won't run a rack of 9 ball;

Cs only one;

Bs 2 or 3 (if I recall correctly);

 

[lewdo26]

Thanks Cory and Maniac for your encouragement.

 

[Gregg]

Rating systems are very subjective.

That said, I think your accomplishments are impressive by my TAP and APA league standards, if that helps.

 

[TATE]

Lewdo, definitely, you're improving. You are getting there. But avoid the temptation to "rank" yourself. It's not about stringing racks or making big runs, or being a "b" player or being an "a" player.

It's all about being the best player that you can be. As a player, you should aspire to the maximum level you can reach. That level will determine how good you will be. If you are lucky, you will never reach that level. You simply won't know exactly how good that is until you try.

Putting yourself in a category is setting yourself up for disappointment. For example, if I think I'm a "B" player and lose to known "C" player, well I might get pretty depressed. I remember a moment when I thought I reached "A" player status when I was about 25. I had a number of runs over 50 balls, and some in the 70's and 80's by then. I didn't really play much 9 ball then. I was spotted the WILD 7, the 8, and the breaks by a good player. He absolutely drilled me. I didn't go into a pool room for 3 months after that. But was I really an "A" player? No. Maybe I was an "A" shooter but not an "A" player. There is a big difference. I choked.

So because I thought myself into a category, I let my ego dictate my thoughts. Now I can lose and walk away from it with a lesson.

Just remember, you will keep getting better and better. When that's no longer the case, that's how good you can be.

Chris

 

[hobokenapa]

It's all about being the best player that you can be. As a player, you should aspire to the maximum level you can reach. That level will determine how good you will be. If you are lucky, you will never reach that level. You simply won't know exactly how good that is until you try.

Exactly. It's all about learning the game then let all the runs/rankings take care of themselves. I'd rather run a bunch of solid 25s and 30s, than a freak run of 50 with nothing else.

Although my rankings haven't changed for a while, and my high run is only six higher than it was two years ago, I knew I'd improved when running 25 was just normal play, I'd lost count of my 30s, and had about a dozen 40s. I can also play much quicker now that I can recognise patterns rather than having to calculate them (it's sort of like memerising your times table when you were a kid as opposed to doing the math in your head). I won a League match 100-25 in 40 mins last week, something impossible just last year.

That is not to say running my first competitive 50 was not a significant achievement. It was. But it is just a measurement, not the substance itself.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You know, some of the best moments I've had in pool happened when I was in the C-class. One of my favorites, I started three consecutive matches in a tournament by breaking and running the first two racks.

Can I do it now? Sure but my judgement is much much better. That is to say, the number of balls/racks you run is not always indicitive of improvement. I understand that you want something to be able to measure yourself but at the same time, you shouldn't be too obsessed with it. Just continue to learn and always try to make the best decisions. If I feel like I played a set without making any mental mistakes, I'm much much happier than if I ran-out half the time. There's just so much luck involved to get that to happen but if you know you did the best with what you were faced with, you have something to be proud of.

Also, don't sweat the ratings systems. They're kinda hogwash, too. Just focus on beating everyone that they put infront of you and let "them" decide what your rating is.

 

[Flex]

If I feel like I played a set without making any mental mistakes, I'm much much happier than if I ran-out half the time. There's just so much luck involved to get that to happen but if you know you did the best with what you were faced with, you have something to be proud of.

Also, don't sweat the ratings systems. They're kinda hogwash, too. Just focus on beating everyone that they put infront of you and let "them" decide what your rating is.

Tap, tap, tap.

 

[sjm]

Not nearly enough information to answer the question here, my friend.

Do you play offense when offense is called for and defense when defense is called for?

How's your defense?

How's your kicking?

Do you have a reasonable command of billiard theory?

How's your speed control?

Do you play with a complete range of strokes? Most C players, in my opinion, use follow, draw and stop only, sometimes with outside english but rarely wityh iniside english. Do you use much inside english? Do you use stun follow, stun, and stun draw? At B level, I see players having a fairly complete set of strokes.

Tell me more, sir. To assess your game, I need to know whether you are evolving into a complete player.

 

[lewdo26]

Not nearly enough information to answer the question here, my friend.

Do you play offense when offense is called for and defense when defense is called for?

How's your defense?

How's your kicking?

Do you have a reasonable command of billiard theory?

How's your speed control?

Do you play with a complete range of strokes? Most C players, in my opinion, use follow, draw and stop only, sometimes with outside english but rarely wityh iniside english. Do you use much inside english? Do you use stun follow, stun, and stun draw? At B level, I see players having a fairly complete set of strokes.

Tell me more, sir. To assess your game, I need to know whether you are evolving into a complete player.

sjm, thank you for your thorough and sincere questions.

I can say that my defense and kicking are beneath my offense for sure. I know a couple of billiard systems from reading, watching Accu-stats 3C matches and lessons I took with Ron Vitello, but, to be quite frank, I hardly ever use them in the heat competition. They are not drilled in my head yet. I have made considerable improvement on recognizing which speed to kick at, and, when the kick is easy, which side of the ball I want to hit.

However, I am NOT a mindless player who plays offense when defense is called for. I think this is actually something that I do more judiciously than most C players I see play. And you might not know this, but you're certainly one of my inspirations in that regard. I do practice both safeties and kicking, though not as much as offense.

My speed control is much, much better than it was even 6 months ago. More and more do I hit my target zone. I attribute that to having put some work at a more consistent (and shorter) stroke and pre-shot routine although it needs a whole bunch of work. Oh, and from playing some straight pool with Wayne. I'm also recognizing more quickly when to go long or short, and such.

I do use all the strokes, my inside english not being as developed as it should. But I certainly use it... I also use the stun draw and stun follow strokes because Rolando just drilled them into my game. I'll use all of the above strokes in a given match, with mixed results.

Also, I was by no means implying that I'm a B player at present. I think I might be starting to do B player-like things, which may signify I'm currently making the transition between a C and C+.

 

[lewdo26]

Tate, Hobokenapa, and Jude. I'll keep all of your thoughts in mind. I'm not obsessed with ratings, I guarantee you. But I am a little obsessive about improvement, and by quantifying my drills, and matches against the ghost and stuff, I can get a better sense of my individual learning curve. Recently, I got the sense that I climbed or am about to climb another step of the unending ladder of improvement all of us who love the game aspire toward and it's good to hear the assessment of more accomplished players such as yourselves.

Also, what quantifying a player's improvement does is provide him or her with gradual, concrete and attainable goals. That is what motivates me to practice intelligently rather than just bust a rack of 9 loose and shoot for the hole every time I put my cue together.

P.S. Tate I hear you on the distinction you made between being an A shooter and an A player. I think mental aspects and competitive fortitude is everything in that regard. I'm still a much better player in practice than in competition, but the gap is narrowing, I think because of focusing on process as opposed to results.

 

[sjm]

sjm, thank you for your thorough and sincere questions.

I can say that my defense and kicking are beneath my offense for sure. I know a couple of billiard systems from reading, watching Accu-stats 3C matches and lessons I took with Ron Vitello, but, to be quite frank, I hardly ever use them in the heat competition. They are not drilled in my head yet. I have made considerable improvement on recognizing which speed to kick at, and, when the kick is easy, which side of the ball I want to hit.

However, I am NOT a mindless player who plays offense when defense is called for. I think this is actually something that I do more judiciously than most C players I see play. And you might not know this, but you're certainly one of my inspirations in that regard. I do practice both safeties and kicking, though not as much as offense.

My speed control is much, much better than it was even 6 months ago. More and more do I hit my target zone. I attribute that to having put some work at a more consistent (and shorter) stroke and pre-shot routine although it needs a whole bunch of work. Oh, and from playing some of straight pool with Wayne. I'm also recognizing more quickly when to go long or short, and such.

I do use all the strokes, my inside english not being as developed as it should. But I certainly use it... I also use the stun draw and stun follow strokes because Rolando just drilled them into my game. I'll use all of the above strokes in a given match, with mixed results.

Sounds very promising, my friend. In view of your answers, you are taking steps not only to improve your shot execution but also to broaden your horizons in all facets of the game. HobokenAPA gave you some great advice:

. It's all about learning the game then let all the runs/rankings take care of themselves.

Sounds to me like you are on the right track. Yes, you are starting to do some B-level things.

Let's shoot some together one of these days. Might be fun.

 

[lewdo26]

Sounds very promising, my friend. In view of your answers, you are taking steps not only to improve your shot execution but also to broaden your horizons in all facets of the game. HobokenAPA gave you some great advice:



Sounds to me like you are on the right track. Yes, you are starting to do some B-level things.

Let's shoot some together one of these days. Might be fun.

That would be great. I might play the tournament tomorrow at Amsterdam, girlfriend allowing. Then I guess I'll just follow them downtown. I've been playing mostly in Queens but I miss you guys and will not disappear. Oh, and I still owe you that beer!