I wish I could be there at the BCA show for that but I will not be going this year. Please keep me/us updated on any discussions.
American Pool NEEDS a Real Governing Body
- Thread starter geno
- Start date
I wish I could be there at the BCA show for that but I will not be going this year. Please keep me/us updated on any discussions.
This won't be starting a PTA.... It WILL take alot of money for "Like minded individuals" to take their time and effort to really work at this. They will need to eat for one lol....feed their families rather.... travel expenses (plane tickets, rental cars, hotel expenses)....somebody has to go and wine and dine the "big" sponsors, travel to the tourny's they represent. Six months of meetings with Allen Hopkins about the Expo, Berry Berman about the US Open, Insert name _____ about the DCC, whoever runs the Galveston World Classic and getting Dragon Promotions on board or rather get them to quit! Who in the world is going to pay for all this? Ok... Whoever is going to be in charge can just email Charlie Williams and let him down easy....email Allen and let him know gently that he will now owe dues to the governing body and 30% of his take from the Expo will go to a fund that consists of the US open's 30% and the DCC's 30% because that is what is needed to fund this trainwreck. People who will be running this thing will have to be well educated qualified individuals who probably won't come cheap imo. PR experts need to be hired or (asked to foot their own expenses for the "cause"...yea that will work!) to handle disasters exactly like what we have seen this past week. This isn't an infomercial where you can Get Rich starting your own Billiard Governing Body while living in a 1 bedroom apartment! IT WILL TAKE MONEY!
Maybe you could spare 20k or so for the cause? In reality just donate 1k in this economy....takes money to make money.
Their motives should be suspect.... it is a players union... what else is it? Their motives are for themselves as it it should be. Don't see a problem here really...
WOW, 30% from the promoters of the Expo and Open..... Nobody is calling for all of that or any of that for that matter.
To get this started a few phone calls and/or conference calling will do the trick not 3-6 months of going and talking then more than likely 1 meeting at something like the Open or DCC that most of us attend anyway. You must not have read the other posts or you would have seen references to these costs or lack of costs in them.
For this to work and get started all it needs is an agreement between the parties involved. A simple agreement not a lengthy contract that will require accountants and attorneys. Just a yes I agree and will do X and X is all that it will take.
As far as inside industry sponsorship contracts go. The people involved will have every contact needed to get that part of the project moving. Many of them deal on a day-2-day basis with with inside industry sponsors. I know I do and I know many of my counterparts do as well.
As far as outside industry sponsorships go many of us can do that with the right package to present but if that is not possible or in the best interest there are many PR forms that do this on a percentage basis with no upfront fees to the organizations themselves.
To get this going it really does not have to be that complicated at all.. However, if you or anyone wants to donate 20 or 30K to get the ball rolling I am sure it wouldn't be turned down.....
To get this started a few phone calls and/or conference calling will do the trick not 3-6 months of going and talking then more than likely 1 meeting at something like the Open or DCC that most of us attend anyway. You must not have read the other posts or you would have seen references to these costs or lack of costs in them.
For this to work and get started all it needs is an agreement between the parties involved. A simple agreement not a lengthy contract that will require accountants and attorneys. Just a yes I agree and will do X and X is all that it will take.
As far as inside industry sponsorship contracts go. The people involved will have every contact needed to get that part of the project moving. Many of them deal on a day-2-day basis with with inside industry sponsors. I know I do and I know many of my counterparts do as well.
As far as outside industry sponsorships go many of us can do that with the right package to present but if that is not possible or in the best interest there are many PR forms that do this on a percentage basis with no upfront fees to the organizations themselves.
To get this going it really does not have to be that complicated at all.. However, if you or anyone wants to donate 20 or 30K to get the ball rolling I am sure it wouldn't be turned down.....
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A. Nobody is looking for handouts. That was just in response t0 your earlier post.
B. We have done this already in the test program.
C. It's not that easy to get EVERONE that needs to be involved, involved in this. But once they can all agree that it needs to happen and they want to become involved then 1 meeting and a few handshakes will get the ball rolling.
Why would Allen (who makes upwards to 300 -350k on the expo...guess) get involved when his 18 year running tourny is one of the hottest things going and gets filthy on it doing it himself? Whats his motivation? Why would he spend extra time getting involved when all his time is taken between family, Friends, Expo, playing pool,ect ect. I am not speaking for the man personally I am just stating hypotheticals here. Who and how will you get new advertising? New sponsorships? Valid questions here because apparently according to your previous posts they should fall in line once this is organized. That ain't going to happen.
One huge problem pool has today is the money.... compared to other sports. Where does that money come from? They come from Sponorships.... TV....fans. Well the fans don't pack em in like a nascar race.... you don't see anything remotely pool on TV unless it's Allison Fisher or Trick Shots. The sponsors ain't hacking it apparently (unless your SVB and Cuetech). I can't remember the last time I saw a pool player wearing a SVB or Mika jersey, can you? Look I'm just saying here that pool can be big money and is big money to certain groups and individuals now. They aren't going to "get involved" for the greater good unless there is something in it for them. It has been the history of every organization in pool to date. Greed. Money.
There are several organization models to look at, for establishing a "Governance". Take a look at the P.G.A., the U.S.G.A. or a combination of the two. Then modify everything to fit under that umbrella.
You get rules, regulations, handicaps & so on.... this may be a place to start!
You get rules, regulations, handicaps & so on.... this may be a place to start!
Hypothetically speaking all Allen Hopkins would have to do is say yes to allowing 1 set of rules at his Championship event ( The organizations rules which might already be what he is using) and allow his event to be a part of the organization in the aspect of getting monies/sponsorships from the Organization paid to him for his event and having him display there banners at the event and on his advertising and having him accept players that qualified through the organizations RT system participate in his event. This last part can be done is several ways. The Championship event only takes 64 players and he may agree to open that to 96 or he can say yes, I will accept 16 out of the 64 from the orgs qualifiers. There are many simple and agreeable ways to do this part. The same hold true for the US Open, The Galveston Classic and any other event that chooses to be a part of the system.
It can also work in favor of promoters like Allen if an organization like the BPA is part of the overall system. We can simply say we can Guarantee you 48 Champion players and 16 players that qualified to play in the event and fill your field for you so you don't have to do any work.
Hypothetically speaking of course.
AND regarding your last statement: "They aren't going to "get involved" for the greater good unless there is something in it for them. It has been the history of every organization in pool to date. Greed. Money."
This in itself is very true. But if they open there eyes and see that there bottom line has plummeted over the past 5 or 6 years they will see that being part of this organization has the potential to increase that bottom line instead of taking from it then there greed or want at a free shot will encourage them to join.
Factually speaking, I can guarantee you that most tours or events bottom line has NOT increased in years and unless they do something many are in jeopardy of closing up shop..
Personally speaking, I personally hold more sponsorship contracts than any 5 regional tours combined BUT I as with my competitors have seen a decrease in sponsorships over the years. Not just because of the economy or more competition but mainly because the sponsors have either closed there doors or moved overseas. I would be more that willing to share some of that sponsorship now to gain a shot at the potential of what a system like this can do for me in the future. Not everyone thinks like me but I am here for the long haul and not to just make a quick buck. Thankfully, this line of thinking as allowed me to do what I love to do for the past 20 years and hopefully for the next 20 years to...
It can also work in favor of promoters like Allen if an organization like the BPA is part of the overall system. We can simply say we can Guarantee you 48 Champion players and 16 players that qualified to play in the event and fill your field for you so you don't have to do any work.
Hypothetically speaking of course.
AND regarding your last statement: "They aren't going to "get involved" for the greater good unless there is something in it for them. It has been the history of every organization in pool to date. Greed. Money."
This in itself is very true. But if they open there eyes and see that there bottom line has plummeted over the past 5 or 6 years they will see that being part of this organization has the potential to increase that bottom line instead of taking from it then there greed or want at a free shot will encourage them to join.
Factually speaking, I can guarantee you that most tours or events bottom line has NOT increased in years and unless they do something many are in jeopardy of closing up shop..
Personally speaking, I personally hold more sponsorship contracts than any 5 regional tours combined BUT I as with my competitors have seen a decrease in sponsorships over the years. Not just because of the economy or more competition but mainly because the sponsors have either closed there doors or moved overseas. I would be more that willing to share some of that sponsorship now to gain a shot at the potential of what a system like this can do for me in the future. Not everyone thinks like me but I am here for the long haul and not to just make a quick buck. Thankfully, this line of thinking as allowed me to do what I love to do for the past 20 years and hopefully for the next 20 years to...
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I understand your thinking of a few conference calls and meeting to "get started". This may be true.
Hypothetically speaking of course.... once this thing takes off and a year down the road there is a "GB" and it is the final word in US Billiards, who runs it full time? Who will be the Spokesperson? The "commish" per say. Most Regional APA owners do it full time that I know of. I may be wrong here but if it is a full time job running an APA Region then how can running the "GB" of US Billiards be part time? One of your earlier posts made sense about Budweiser for instance sponsoring 2,000,000 for 1100 regional events, 12 national events and 4 TV events... ect ect. With that being said.... getting that together will take more then a few conference calls and hand shakes and promises. It will take a full time group of dedicated individuals getting paid to direct this. It will take lawyers and contracts being signed and alot of money transfering hands on behalf of the one and only "GB". This is a great concept, however my earlier post translates to this and are valid questions about where the money will come from getting all of this together and seen through the way it should be. It won't be cheap and the start up costs to get this vision to come to fruition will take a good bit of money as I originally stated imo.
Thank you for answering my question about Hopkins and the expo btw. One question I have from that however is promising him a set number of pro pool players with big names would take contract agreements between the GB and the ABP would it not? With that being said it would truely be the governing body of pool and the end all be all of US billiards basically. Dragon promotions would go belly up and the like would they not?
I don't see how this would affect Dragon Promotions in any way as most of there events are overseas. Again the start-up money isn't needed for the organization to run. Who would be in charge? IDK but maybe the creator and or a board. BIG Contracts, again as I mentioned PR companies do this all the time for a percentage of the contract so no need for funds for this. Lawyers for contracts??? If it gets there I am sure many of the BOD's or the president or even myself would put up the dough to make sure this happens especially since the money will be there to repay it once the contract is signed. I have done several large contracts and never needed a lawyer but again the most I ever got at 1 time was an agreement for 1 million.
Things like this is what took place in most majpr professional sports with a recognized professional tour/league, strong sponsership, and a strong fanbase.
The PGA absorbed alot of independent events and merged everything together to become what it is today, the NHL merged with other proffesoinal leagues to become the single clear premier professional hockey league in North America.
No sport can, or has ever prospered by being a non-connected cluster of individual events. Sports only excell when they finally figure out that they need to come together, merge together resources, marketing budjets, sponsership deals, ect...
It is WAY cheaper to advertise a tour and the 8 events on that tour then it is for 8 different individuals to market each tournament individually. It is way Cheaper for a tour with multiple events to buy tables for their tour and a truck to move then and transport those tables to multiple events each year then for a single event to attempt to buy/rent tables for a single event once a year. It is WAY cheaper to get those 8 people at the table to chip in $1000 for a top quality website with a total of $8 worth of polish on it then it is for each of those guys to go and spend $2000 of there own money building their own website that looks like it is worth the 1/4 of the tour website, since it is.
This is nothing new, it is not groundbreaking, it is common sense. I would love to see Mark Griffin, Barry Herman, Greag Sullivan, Mike Zuglan, Mike Janis, and any other people who are putting out quality events in the pool world get together and have a non-decision casual opening meeting that as much a meet and greet where something like this is brought out on the table anc chatted about. No votes, no trying to move forward in that first meet, simple say heya guys, do you think we might actually do ok working together? And how could we do this in a way that benefits us all, gets the fans more interested in the sport, gives the pros a better and legit professional pool circuit in the USA, and perhaps one day work towards a true professional tour in the distance future if it is possible.
Sposers, the real sponsers you need, are alot more likely to let you in the door and listen if you are going into a meeting speaking for 8 other experienced pool promotors and offering them more then a 1 week commitment where you will put up a banner. You need to offer them the official softdring sponser of the 2016(because this is gonna take time) season and tour, their banners will be up in all 8 events, deals will be made that their product will be the only cola sold on premisis in each event (and other coke products like Sprite, their bottled watter, ect..) Furthmore they are going to get front page of the website advertisement that everyoe who visits the websites will see, and this is excellent because oiut website cost $8000 to get that built and it has built in scoring updates, video interviews, and the best part, live converage from the event streamed by TAR who have exclusive right to film all of the events in this organization through a jenerous profit sharing deal on PPV sales and DvD sales.
So much stuff can be done if thus acually got off the ground, but this would need a strong willed, charismatic leader who everyone likes, trust, and who holds alot of respect. The events can remain run by their guys, but the guys are going to be in a different world now, Coke needs their banner space, TAR is setting up their camerca for multiple table views, the table setup is going better since it is the same crew who travel the country and set up/tear down the tables at each match.
The opportunities that could be had, for a very cheap expense of a meeting.
Pool needs this, it needs the merging, the absorbing of some smaller stuff, it needs to big 1mion and 1 small things into a far bigger thing with smart people who can then take that bigger things and do it right.
Noone important. Can't do much to help either...just trying to keep the spirits up.
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Yes it was totally my idea and put together by a friend and I.
My dealings with sponsors and failed monies was simply exhausting. I did learn some tricks to get people to answer their phones. oddly it always pissed them off too!
i admit though for 11 years it was fun.
The single governing body sounds ambitious. It might work if everyone in the billiards industry was doing well. But since times are tough and trust is low, I doubt anyone can pull this off.
The ABP is a self governing body, that helps the players identify which tournaments are hazards and risk investments. An overall governing body provides no advantage to what is happening without additional cost or effort.
I think right now your just upset that the players are targeting Barry. It might signal other players to boycott or protest certain policies in other events. Your worried that, well without the players, or the entry fees those events will collapse.
That is the only hot topic now. Aside from that pool and pool players have been through alot, from the euphoric tides of the IPT to shadows of the valley of delayed payment.
At this time there is no need for more organization. Barry seems short handed if he is to negotiate or evade the request for terms set by players. That is the bigger issue. What can Barry do to save his tour? The players gave him one out, but can he find another.
The ABP is a self governing body, that helps the players identify which tournaments are hazards and risk investments. An overall governing body provides no advantage to what is happening without additional cost or effort.
I think right now your just upset that the players are targeting Barry. It might signal other players to boycott or protest certain policies in other events. Your worried that, well without the players, or the entry fees those events will collapse.
That is the only hot topic now. Aside from that pool and pool players have been through alot, from the euphoric tides of the IPT to shadows of the valley of delayed payment.
At this time there is no need for more organization. Barry seems short handed if he is to negotiate or evade the request for terms set by players. That is the bigger issue. What can Barry do to save his tour? The players gave him one out, but can he find another.
We do own a pool hall and do host regional tours.... not sure if that matters though.
I just think there is a lot of talk about top down money.... which I agree is what will take whatever structure is decided upon over the top.... but in the meantime there is a lot of money hiding in the real pool fan base that make up leagues. How much is $1 per player per week? Get a coordinated newsletter into their hands weekly and you can build a bigger national system with a large base THAT ALREADY EXISTS! There is a reason no one knows who the pro players are or how/when they can watch them on streams... it's because no one is telling/educating them that there is a pool world outside of their local pool hall. Get the leagues coordinated in a fashion that doesn't step on their individual toes and the ball WILL roll uphill. And it won't cost a bunch of money..... packets of info are hand delivered to each team captain every week.
And even after re-thinking my baseball analogy.... I still like the 3 tier structure. It provides an upward flow of talent to GROW the sport. By the time a big sponsor steps in, the billiard industry will be primed and ready to capitalize on it and not just fall on it's face (again).
I will not dirty my hat. The idea tossed by Geno is harboring on UNREALISTIC OPTIMISM.
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Most existing tournament promoters or prize fund managers have a hard enough time managing their own budget. I doubt anyone could nominate someone trustworthy and reliable enough to manage a fund used for discretionary purposes.
In the case of player groups, they do nominate someone to manage a fund for multiple purposes. Your suggestions sounds better geared towards creating a room owner fund that can be distributed to various tournaments. But sometimes people just do added money and that requires less micromanagement, it is easier.
Thanks for the info?