An honest question for pool instructors

[cubc]

Directed more towards the BCA Master instructors and what not.

How many male players have you given lessons to that started out as a C player or worse and are now on the pro tour or a top level competitor in nationwide events like Reno, IPT, US Open, etc.?

Not interested in people already of that status that ask for a lesson or polishing of any sort. Nor am I interested in women players because they generally dont have to be that great to go pro. (dont flame for that. just deal with it). Just interested in c'ish players that have taken the knowledge and catapulted to national level competition.

Thanks,
C

 

[Scott Lee]

I don't know what that has to do with anything,in relation to instruction or learning. However, the list, no matter who you ask, is going to be very short... BTW...you had the opportunity to go ask a BCA Master instructor this question, face to face, right in your own backyard, either of the last two weekends. Why didn't you?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Blackjack]

You probably aren't going to get any instructors to name drop. I have worked with several pros that have come to me to work on various areas of their game. Most of them were referred to me by other players. I have not taken a "C" player and molded them into a professional, however in the past I have worked with an unknown player who catapulted to the world championship and US Open titles. Those victories are not to my credit at all, it is a credit to this player applying all that they had learned from several people along the way. Yes, she's a female player, but if you don't think that she's that good, I'll back her giving you the 7.


There is a big difference between a player coming for one class, then having them riding into the sunset never to be heard from again - compared to coaching and working with a player on a daily basis. Most of the professional / regional tour players I have worked with have stuck around for more than a few hours and a videotape. We follow a carefully planned training program and it is a daily activity, not a one time deal. It is a commitment on both our parts.

I am hearing a lot of complaints from players that are taking one class and expecting to magically play pro speed as a result of what they learned in that one class. It doesn't work that way. The players I work with train with me 5 days a week in a dojo-like setting. I match them up with each other and I create an environment that accurately mimics tournament competition.

Becoming a great player requires a physical, mental, and spiritual commitment. It also requires 110% effort on the part of the coach and the player. If the commitment or effort is non-existent or half assed, you're going to get half assed results. As I said in the other thread, there seems to be this weak ass BS of blaming the instructor when the student doesn't achieve their goals. These players need to wake up and realize that you're going to get out of it what you put into it. These are the same players that refuse to listen, refuse to apply what is learned, and refuse to take responsibility for their own deficiencies. Champions overcome their deficiencies, while losers blame others and point fingers. Expecting to go to an instructor for one class and expecting miracles is not very realistic. I think this is the main problem with the complaints that I hear on the forums.

 

[Scott Lee]

Expecting to go to an instructor for one class and expecting miracles is not very realistic. I think this is the main problem with the complaints that I hear on the forums.

tap, tap, tap. I will add, however, that a good foundation for stroke improvement can be derived from one lesson, provided that you practice what we show you, the way we show you. Developing a more accurate, repeatable stroke enables the player to take advantage of higher degrees of learning, as desribed by David above. Five days a week is highly intensive, but most players could certainly benefit from professional instructional exposure once a week, on an ongoing basis.

For the record, I've taken a beginner (low C, high D) from there to a national title over a 5 yr period...and as mentioned by Blackjack, it was the STUDENT'S hard work and dedication that took them all the way...not anything necessarily specific that I did to assist them in their quest.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[cubc]

BTW...you had the opportunity to go ask a BCA Master instructor this question, face to face, right in your own backyard, either of the last two weekends. Why didn't you?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I actually didnt know until Sunday morning and spoke to him in PM's here. I had league that afternoon and couldnt get away as it was important, but did send him a video of me playing to see what he had in mind to offer and I liked his response so with some notice and planning I may go visit him a day or 2 and see what happens.

The players I work with train with me 5 days a week in a dojo-like setting. I match them up with each other and I create an environment that accurately mimics tournament competition.

Thats actually pretty cool, but I'm sure something like that would cost out the a**. How much would something like that cost though?

In regards to some female winning and giving me the 7 pm me and lets set the game up. But you 2 have to come to me. I'll use my own money and post up a couple g.

I'm not asking these questions to imply they dont work or anything like that. I'm asking because I'm wondering out of all the people you guys instructed what the % success rate of the players dedication and your instruction has. I know it's easy to place blame in this delicate scenario by saying well they dont practice enough or he didnt teach me well etc. etc.

Marriage has a 10% success rate yet still everyone gets married.

See I still think most of the game is foundation in the beginning and then it's up to the player to learn so many situations to play, adjusting speed to table conditions, and then overcome pressures of gambling / tournaments and all that. But after the initial basics theres little left and for someone to be maybe a c or a b player and getting some lessons and taking off it makes me wonder if thats even possible.

Like I said I'm probably going to meet with pooltchr in charlotte sometime and see what he has to offer in person. Dedication on my part isnt in question here as I play entirely too much. Easily 40 hours a week after working a full time job too, but he sounds like a smart character.

Thanks again for any responses.
C

 

[Blackjack]

Thats actually pretty cool, but I'm sure something like that would cost out the a**. How much would something like that cost though?


C

FWIW, I have special rates when I work with students long term, and it is very affordable. Most of the time when working with long term training, the cost is based on student referral, not cash. That means that the player will refer students to me instead of paying large sums of money.

My classes have always been reasonably priced - and one session from me is still priced under $50.

As far as the woofing, I believe that she goes there once a year for the Carolina Classic. Just show up for the players meeting, ask Peg for the mic and then tell all of the players that they really don't have to be that great to be playing on that tour and that you'll play anybody. You'll either get action, or you'll have to deal with 60+ pissed off women all in the same room gunning for your ass. Nice knowin' ya, pal! lol

Seriously, it is extremely disrespectful to discount the skill of any player at any level, regardless of gender. I have worked extensively with many of the WPBA players, and female players from some of the regional tours. They are all very dedicated and work very hard to improve constantly. As a matter of fact, I have played in Open regional events and lost to some of them - so have many other MALE players. There's no shame in that. The winner of any match is the player that dealt with the layouts better. I always encourage the players that I coach to play in the Open events as much as possible, and many of them have done very well. Gender has nothing to do with it, it comes down to heart and determination, and some of these ladies will catch most male players by surprise.

 

[cubc]

As far as the woofing, I believe that she goes there once a year for the Carolina Classic. Just show up for the players meeting, ask Peg for the mic and then tell all of the players that they really don't have to be that great to be playing on that tour and that you'll play anybody. You'll either get action, or you'll have to deal with 60+ pissed off women all in the same room gunning for your ass. Nice knowin' ya, pal! lol

haha I can barely deal with 1 pissed off girlfriend; I cant imagine dealing with 60+ pissed off women lol.

It's cool you offer sessions like that. Sounds kind of like what happened to me when I was younger but with just good players not instructors.. probably explains my good pattern play but my horridly unspicy chicken wing

 

[Bob Jewett]

... How many male players have you given lessons to that started out as a C player or worse and are now on the pro tour or a top level competitor in nationwide events like Reno, IPT, US Open, etc.? ...

I think to see results like this, you need to look at youth programs. England and Spain both have youth programs that have produced world champions. In the US, there is no equivalent program I know of.

 

[seymore15074]

Guys, I am guessing that the question is "can you estimate a success rate for C students going pro eventually." Meaning, is it 1 out of 10, 1 out of 100, 1 out of 1000, etc...

Rather, everyone is answering questions that were not asked...

EDIT: Oh, it was made more clear a few posts before this.

 

[Bigtruck]

Same reason...

Marriage has a 10% success rate yet still everyone gets married.

I don't know how you came up with this figure, but marriages fail for the same reason many C players never make Pro or even shortstop. Lack of commitment.

Ray

 

[cubc]

I came up with that figure from Wanda Sykes saying that was the percentage and that people still get married, however, if people were on a plane and 10 people were given parachutes and only 1 of them worked would you jump?

It was just too funny.

 

[teebee]

I don't understand the attitude of many pool players towards teachers. It seems that they are not secure enough in their skills to admit that they could be improved by coaching.
Tiger Woods is constantly fine tuning his fundamentals with the help of teachers he could beat without effort. It seems to me thet If pool players (evan good pool players - Which I am not), took this same attitude they would be far ahead.

 

[JoeyA]

I don't understand the attitude of many pool players towards teachers. It seems that they are not secure enough in their skills to admit that they could be improved by coaching.
Tiger Woods is constantly fine tuning his fundamentals with the help of teachers he could beat without effort. It seems to me thet If pool players (evan good pool players - Which I am not), took this same attitude they would be far ahead.

While I think pool instructors are needed in the pool world, I don't think you can equate the "teachers" that help Tiger Woods with his game and most of the pool instructors that teach pool. The "teachers" that work with Tiger are or have been world class and professional players themselves.

JoeyA

 

[Blackjack]

While I think pool instructors are needed in the pool world, I don't think you can equate the "teachers" that help Tiger Woods with his game and most of the pool instructors that teach pool. The "teachers" that work with Tiger are or have been world class and professional players themselves.

JoeyA

... and if 99% of these "world class players" would get off of their asses and give back to the sport, then maybe that would change. I wouldn't advise holding your breath waiting for that to happen, so in the meantime - we're all that pool has.

 

[seymore15074]

While I think pool instructors are needed in the pool world, I don't think you can equate the "teachers" that help Tiger Woods with his game and most of the pool instructors that teach pool. The "teachers" that work with Tiger are or have been world class and professional players themselves.

JoeyA

Woot!

I always have such a hard time giving rep because there are only like 5 people that ever get it from me...we shouldn't have to spread rep to the rest...

 

[BPG24]

I don't understand the attitude of many pool players towards teachers. It seems that they are not secure enough in their skills to admit that they could be improved by coaching.
Tiger Woods is constantly fine tuning his fundamentals with the help of teachers he could beat without effort. It seems to me thet If pool players (evan good pool players - Which I am not), took this same attitude they would be far ahead.

I'm not sure comparing Pool and Golf is a very good example here....
Golf has soooo many more variables to master in order to become great..
Single digit handicappers will understand exactly what I mean...

 

[teebee]

Nearly none of the great golf "pros" / teachers are or have been world class players. They are good players but great teacers/coaches. Teachers come in all levels of skill like every occupation. The pro at my local golf course will not be giving Tiger lessons soon but he is a good teacher. I can't believe pool doesn't have some great teachers capable of helping evan the most talented player excel.

 

[JoeyA]

... and if 99% of these "world class players" would get off of their asses and give back to the sport, then maybe that would change. I wouldn't advise holding your breath waiting for that to happen, so in the meantime - we're all that pool has.

Blackjack, you're doing your part and my hats off to ya my man. Maybe Shane will show us how to give back to the sport. We'll see. Have to give him more than a couple of weeks. He's probably resting for the thrilla in Manila.

I think Mike Howerton and Jerry Forsythe should do one of those LONG --AZB TV .com instructional videos with Shane. The people who want to see that happen can refer to particular shots that they saw at the Open or other places and ask Shane about his thoughts. Most people that want to learn how to play poolbetter want to know what the top players are thinking when they are planning a game plan.

How close are you to Tampa?
JoeyA

 

[Blackjack]

Joey
I'm about an hour out of Tampa.

FWIW, just because someone is a great player, does not necessarily make them a great teacher. For example...Guys like Hal Mix and Gene Nagy have spread their knowledge to some of the best players we've seen. Nick Varner was probably a much better player than Hal, but Hal's influence was what helped Nick raise his game up a few notches in the late 1980's.

 

[randyg]

Yes, I'm a BCA Master Instructor and the answer to your question is:

I usually don't get any "C" Players in school. Many pros but few C's.....SPF=randyg