An interesting rule question?

danquixote

danquixote

DanQuixote
Silver Member
Ok myself and a few league players were sitting around BS'ing about league rules and our opinions of same. Most questions had a satisfactory answer but we hit a stumbling block on the designation of group rule for 8 ball play. All agreed that the table was open after the break, and group selection depended upon making a legal hit and pocketing a called ball. The question was then asked....what if I break, look over the table layout, and determine a safety is the best play. I choose to announce my intention thusly....11 ball in the corner pocket for a safety shot, and I proceed to accomplish same. Legal hit on the 11 and it is pocketed where called. Does this fullfill the requirement for group selection and I am now locked into the stripes with my opponent shooting as the table lays....OR..does the calling of a safety play negate the called shot/legal hit requirement for group selection and my opponent is at an open table?

I think it is the latter of the two choices.....but I defer to the combined wisdom of my fellow AZ'ers........Dan
 
danquixote said:
The question was then asked....what if I break, look over the table layout, and determine a safety is the best play. I choose to announce my intention thusly....11 ball in the corner pocket for a safety shot, and I proceed to accomplish same. Legal hit on the 11 and it is pocketed where called.
Click to expand...

There is no need to call the ball (in this case the 11-ball) if you have already called a safety. Once a safety is called, it don't matter how many balls go into a pocket, you give up the table AND it's as if no balls went in, thus it is still an open table (unless of course you were in an APA league).

Maniac
 
it depends on the league rules. in tap, i believe you would be given stripes. the shot you describe is called defense down in tap, and while it is marked as a defense, the pocketed ball still counts.
 
jdxprs said:
it depends on the league rules. in tap, i believe you would be given stripes. the shot you describe is called defense down in tap, and while it is marked as a defense, the pocketed ball still counts.
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Here is the TAP rule. I don't believe it's any different than other leagues.

11
Defensive Shots
A player must call a defensive (or safety) shot when not
attempting to pocket an object ball. To execute a defensive shot the
shooter must make a legal hit. Any ball pocketed after the hit stays
down and the shooter surrenders their shot to their opponent where the
cue ball rests. The opposing player has the right to ask the scorekeeper
to record that shot as a defensive shot. Any disputes should be worked
out by the players first and, if necessary, contact the League Director
for the final say. Not noting a defense shot repeatedly is
unsportsmanlike and disciplinary actions could be taken against that
player. You can call defense down and pocket your ball; however, your
opponent now has command of the table where the cue ball rests.
Defense down must be called prior to the shot and marked on the score
sheet as a (DEF) defensive shot and a dead ball. There is no limit on the
amount o f times a player can call defense/defense down.
Click to expand...
 
danquixote said:
I choose to announce my intention thusly....11 ball in the corner pocket for a safety shot, and I proceed to accomplish same. Legal hit on the 11 and it is pocketed where called.
Click to expand...

Open Table.

It seems pointless if anyone says otherwise - You could call the 11 ball in the side, and then drill the 11 in the corner. Since you did not make the ball in the called pocket no group is determined. Or call the 3 in the side and drill the 11 in the corner - with an open table you can hit any ball but the 8 first and you did not make the 3 so still open.

JonnyB
 
Official BCAPL response

In BCAPL play: the shooter's inning is ended. The table is open. The incoming player accepts the table in position. The pertinent BCAPL rules:

Rule 2.6.1, Establishing Groups

"Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety." (emphasis added)

and an excerpt from the Applied Ruling for "Safety":

Situation 1: Player A calls a ball and pocket, and at the same time calls a safety. Player A completes the shot as intended, pocketing the called ball.

Ruling: Player A's inning is ended. The safety takes precedence over the called shot and is enforced according to the General Rules and specific game rules.

:)
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
tatcat2000 said:
In BCAPL play: the shooter's inning is ended. The table is open. The incoming player accepts the table in position. The pertinent BCAPL rules:

Rule 2.6.1, Establishing Groups

"Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety." (emphasis added)

and an excerpt from the Applied Ruling for "Safety":

Situation 1: Player A calls a ball and pocket, and at the same time calls a safety. Player A completes the shot as intended, pocketing the called ball.

Ruling: Player A's inning is ended. The safety takes precedence over the called shot and is enforced according to the General Rules and specific game rules.

:)
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
Click to expand...

WPA rules same I think.

Just think of it this way. You can never call a safety and call a ball on the same shot.
 
Thank you folks for affirming my judgment on this matter. It was the cause of some heated discussion and the only rule book present was an excerpt from BCA printed in an instruction booklet. Needless to say this small excerpt was not entirely clear on the matter.
 
thanks for the clarifications.

Jude Rosenstock said:
Another way to look at it - you may call a ball or you may call safe. You cannot do both.
Click to expand...

I think this is the best answer to the question.


It seems pointless if anyone says otherwise - You could call the 11 ball in the side, and then drill the 11 in the corner. Since you did not make the ball in the called pocket no group is determined. Or call the 3 in the side and drill the 11 in the corner - with an open table you can hit any ball but the 8 first and you did not make the 3 so still open.
Click to expand...

and this would be the best way to avoid any question about the shot.
 
skor said:
this does not refer to a situation when the table is open.
Click to expand...

You're right but it does give a distinction between calling a ball and calling a safety. Here are the instructions for when the table is open:

If the player pockets a ball on the break, that player continues to shoot until he/she misses or commits a foul. Regardless of which category of balls is made ("low balls" or "high balls"), the table remains "open" until a shooter has completed a skill shot by calling a ball in an assigned pocket. Once this has been accomplished, that category of balls belongs to that shooter for the remainder of the game and the remaining category of balls belongs to the opponent.
Click to expand...

When you combine the two rules, it suggests you cannot call safe and call stripes at the same time. Based on what I see here, the only way it WOULD be allowed is if it were specifically worded in the rules.
 
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