An unusual foul called on me, anyone know this rule?
- Thread starter koston08
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av84fun said:
Just to add to this, a clicking sound can also come from the tip and ferrule coming apart in the middle. It looks ok but there is a definite "tink" sound when you hit a ball. If you can't find the problem pull that tip off and more times than not you'll see a bare spot in the center where the glue came apart from the ferrule and tip.
MULLY
mullyman said:
me either... you can get just as much or more ferrule to cue ball contact on a vertical jump shot as you can on a horizontal one. but one is legal and the other is not....
a good lawyer could make the case that all jump shots should be illegal based on the precedent of the scoop shot ruling.
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radge69 said:
the jump shot period is for players who can't kick...
this is one of the few places in the rules where you are NOT allowed to stroke the cue normally...if you stroke the cue normally it is a foul but to jack way up and stroke the cue abnormally is legal... that seems counter intuitive to me.. I have tried the scoop jump a few times while practicing alone... and to me it is less predictable than a vertical cue jump shot.. shooting badly isn't illegal in most circumstances...why is this one specific???...
a legal jump shot forces the player to maintain tip to cue ball contact for far longer than in any other shot... in fact the same time of tip to ball contact in any other shot is a foul under the push shot rules..
the jump shot rules don't add up compared with all the rest of the rules..
stroke the cue abnormally... maintain longer than accepted tip to ball contact... and you have made a legal jump shot
stroke the cue normally.. maintain acceptable tip to ball contact time.. and you have fouled..
I"m lost.... I really want to know the reasons behind this..
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av84fun said:
I don't know if sound works, either. Those phenolic tips make a miscue-like sound. Seriously, it drives me nuts whenever my opponent jumps with one. Let's get rid of phenolic tips before we resort to sound to determine fouls.
Jude Rosenstock said:
Phenolic tips have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Plus, on jump shots, if there is a miscue, the jump is not likely to succeed so the opponent is going to get BIH anyway.
Breaking is a different issue but I rarely see miscues on the break with any tip.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
My point in bringing it up has to do with using sound as a reference. Phenolic tips make a miscue-like sound even though the hit was perfectly square. Hence, sound can be misleading. If you standardize equipment to a point where all sound the same, then and only then will you have grounds for an argument for using sound.
softshot said:
Probably the same reason why soccer players aren't allowed to pick up the ball with their hands and throw it into the goal. The scoop jump accomplishes a shooter's objective by using an "illegal" portion of the equipment, the ferrule, as opposed to a "legal" piece of equipment, the cue tip.
I guess the rules just have to draw a line somewhere on what you can touch the cue ball with, and most players probably agree that requiring the cue tip to hit the ball is a good place to draw that line.
Jude Rosenstock said:
Jude, playing cues...as opposed to jump or break cues...are sufficiently standardized so that the clicking sound is definitive of ferrule/shaft contact.
This thread has nothing to do with a shot re: which a phenolic tip would be used and so the dynamics of playing cues are germane and phenolic tips are irrelavent.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
No, I think the moment you begin to argue sound should be used to determine fouls is the moment we should discuss the sounds generated from a phenolic tip. Are you suggesting we create a rule that would apply only when a phenolic tip ISN'T used? Phenolic tips are used during the course of a game and miscues can happen at any time.
av84fun said:
Also, please show me the "standards" for playing cues that would yield similar sounds.
Jude Rosenstock said:
Jude.......if a player does not have a cue in his hand with a phenolic tip on it then the sound that might be made by a phenolic tip has NOTHING to do with calling a foul!!!
There are SEVERAL rules that recognize the impossibility of SEEING a foul.
Good hits...frozen ball fouls and other types of double taps are examples where being able to SEE the foul is deemed impossible...and so OTHER means of detecting the foul are used...ball behavior for example.
Re: you other post concerning cue tip standards, I know of no playing cue tip in common usage that clicks when it strikes a cue ball. Do you?
Nor am I aware of any playing cue that does not emit a clicking should when its shaft or ferrule contacts the cue ball with the normal stroking speeds. Do you?
Regards,
Jim
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av84fun said:
Jim, you have to admit there are no standards about tips. Second, just recognize the simple truth that phenolic tips are used in standard play. At the very least, jump cues have them and there is nothing to stop a player from using one all the time. Since they make a very miscue-like sound, the miscue sound itself is no longer reliable.
Back to the point of all this - you're NEVER going to get a foul call on a miscue (unless the person is jumping). Never, ever, never. If you think you're right, you are only setting yourself up for lots of aggrevation.
Calling fouls based on sound is ridiculous. Where will the absurdity end?
Re scooping the cue ball over a blocking ball, I believe that the significant difference between it and a legal jump shot is the stroke. The stroke on a legal jump shot is a straight-line motion along the axis of the cue... as is every other "legal" stroke. The scoop shot is not in a straight line motion along the axis of the cue.
Re scooping the cue ball over a blocking ball, I believe that the significant difference between it and a legal jump shot is the stroke. The stroke on a legal jump shot is a straight-line motion along the axis of the cue... as is every other "legal" stroke. The scoop shot is not in a straight line motion along the axis of the cue.
Actually, as defined in the rules, a scoop shot can be a straight-line motion. See Rule 8.18. I think Dr. Dave probably has an article about this.cigardave said:
JoeyA said:
In BCA and ACS this shot you describe would absolutely be a foul. You are intentionally causing the cueball to rise by striking it below the center line. It does not matter if you are attempting to jump an impeding ball.
In the original post, it would NOT be a foul because it was done on accident.
.
Yes there is...It's called IQ. Can you cite one single professional player who uses a phenolic tip on his or her normal playing cue? Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
It is not NECESSARILY a foul to muscue on a jump shot is it?
Show me where I stated that I think that fouls on miscues would ever be implemented.
Jim
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yes there is...It's called IQ. Can you cite one single professional player who uses a phenolic tip on his or her normal playing cue? Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
It is not NECESSARILY a foul to muscue on a jump shot is it?
Show me where I stated that I think that fouls on miscues would ever be implemented.
Jim