Another Bizarre Dennis Moment vs Shane

illegal measuring

I lived and played in the Philippines for 25 years. It does happen often in the Philippines and no one ever says anything about it. I'm sure under the pressure of the moment he just wasn't thinking. Although he has played all over the world, he has played 1000 times more in the Philippines without anyone following rules to the T. It's not acceptable but if you have ever experienced playing in the Philippines it's understandable. It's like calling a charge playing basketball in Harlem. You play the game not rules to the T. Unfortunately a costly mistake.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I don't understand why people think this is so bad - same with measuring to see if a ball will fit through an opening or taking your hand off your cue while measuring an angle or putting a piece of chalk on the rail to mark a target. He still has to hit it, and if he needs that kind of help and you don't, then you'll probably win anyway.

pj
chgo
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When I was a kid, Patrick....small town pool hall...some of us played YMCA
rules....if whitey was close to a rail, you could put the cue butt between
the rail and the cue ball...later on, it was not a foul if whitey didn't go
6 inches...you got to shoot over.
We also played winter rules when we gambled on a golf course.

But when you start competing at a world class level...all that 'bar-rule'
thinking has to go.......
...this aint the APA.

I feel that way about call-shot 10-ball also...bar-rule thinking...:angry:
 
jsp said:
Yes, I understand that explicitly stated rule. That is why I clarified by stating "(while holding on to it)" later in that post.

So why exactly is it allowable as long as the stick is held, given the same goal of aligning a shot? Either way, can it not be argued that the use of the cue is being used "inappropriately" (per 6.16h), since using the cue as an alignment tool isn't the primary function of that piece of equipment?
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The stick can be viewed as an alignment tool on nearly every shot. Some people place it on the table on the intended shot line before getting down into stroking position. Some people place it on the table on the ghost ball - to - OB line of centers before going back to the CB. It is used in all sorts of ways for alignment while it is in hand. Any attempt to rule out such things would be chaotic and/or unenforceable and/or inappropriate. But the rule makers have chosen to disallow using it for alignment if it is not held. That's easy to see and enforce.

Edit: And the stick is even an alignment tool when in full shooting position.
 
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AceAngeles said:
You play the game not rules to the T.
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It's the same old "letter of the law vs. spirit of the law" argument. To me, the spirit of the law here is that you aren't supposed to use any sort of device to help you determine a shot except for the cue stick held in a hand and your own eyes. I suppose there could be an argument made that the "spot on the wall" kicking technique uses something besides the table and balls, and so, should be a foul. That would be a hard one to call, though. ;)
 
AtLarge said:
The stick can be viewed as an alignment tool on nearly every shot. Some people place it on the table on the intended shot line before getting down into stroking position. Some people place it on the table on the ghost ball - to - OB line of centers before going back to the CB. It is used in all sorts of ways for alignment while it is in hand. Any attempt to rule out such things would be chaotic and/or unenforceable and/or inappropriate. But the rule makers have chosen to disallow using it for alignment if it is not held. That's easy to see and enforce.

Edit: And the stick is even an alignment tool when in full shooting position.
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That's a fair enough explanation. Well stated.
 
Cornerman said:
Dennis pleading his case to the other Filipinos. Efren seems to be trying to explain to him what's is what. Ken Shuman now over there basically scoling Dennis.
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Nice updates Fred, thanks!

Dennis seems to very nitty and loves to try to get away with stuff for the quality of player he is. Not calling a clear bad hit vs Dechaine very recently also. Him and Mika need to get some integrity.
 
Cornerman said:
8-7 Shane, Dennis on a tough run.

Dennis grabs a ball out of play (13-ball), puts it on the table and lines up where he needs to line up the cueball for a shot on a troubled pair. Shane asks Dennis to hold on and gets a referee. Shane shows the referee what happened, and the ref calls a foul on Dennis.

Dennis concedes the game and match, hits the tied up balls and storms off.


Freddie <~~~ that's too many, Dennis
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Another form of sharking! Common grow up, kids.
 
Black-Balled said:
What was sharking? Dennis Breaking the rule or Shane pointing out that he did it?
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It might be a good idea for them to officially make it a rule. If the rules are specific enough to state the amount of bridges you can use or how you cant use your stick in certain manners then stating you cant use an aiming device is not out of the question imo.
 
(((Satori))) said:
It might be a good idea for them to officially make it a rule. If the rules are specific enough to state the amount of bridges you can use or how you cant use your stick in certain manners then stating you cant use an aiming device is not out of the question imo.
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I agree. There should be no place for ambiguity in the rulebooks. What the heck does "inappropriately" mean? It's similar to my beef as to what constitutes an "obvious" shot in the call-shot rules.
 
pt109 said:
...when you start competing at a world class level...all that 'bar-rule' thinking has to go.....this aint the APA.
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Funny, that's my point too. I think the small advantages gained by these "illegal" practices are only significant at lower levels of play. They don't matter nearly as much, if at all, to better players.

pj
chgo
 
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Pool is broke. Get rid of the gimmicks, rack shenanigans, jump cues, 1-foul BIH, etc.

No wonder there is such confusion and antics. It isn't pool anymore...it is a CIRCUS.
 
Rules are the rules.

I'm not arguing the point. I agree the rules are the rules but I can understand how the mistake could happen. The same goes for not calling yourself on a foul. In the Philippines games are played for money all the time. It's usually not the players money. There is no good sportsmanship until maybe when the match is over. On the other hand it's like 2 "7s" playing each other in the APA. No one would call the other player for not marking the obvious pocket on the 8 ball and take ball in hand. Maybe Shane should have told Dennis (if they are suppose to be friends) that it's not allowed an if it happened a second time call the foul.
 
jsp said:
I agree. There should be no place for ambiguity in the rulebooks. What the heck does "inappropriately" mean? It's similar to my beef as to what constitutes an "obvious" shot in the call-shot rules.
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So really after circling around, we are back to the key juicy question:
Which is worse move -(A) Alcano calling ref on Shane for not calling 'obvious' 10ball in 2nd MP Cup or (B) Shane calling ref on Dennis for using 'inappropriate' tools in this match ?
 
spartan said:
So really after circling around, we are back to the key juicy question:
Which is worse move -(A) Alcano calling ref on Shane for not calling 'obvious' 10ball in 2nd MP Cup or (B) Shane calling ref on Dennis for using 'inappropriate' tools in this match ?
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They both were correct moves. They followed the rules.
 
HawaiianEye said:
They both were correct moves. They followed the rules.
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Not in this forum. Alcano was called all kinds of names even though it was specifically stated and announced in the players' meeting that the 10 ball MUST be called, at least for that specific tournament.
 
Lets see.
You have one guy who doesn't know the cultural differences in certain actions that inadvertently breaks the rules.
You have one guy who knows the rules but just ignores them, who gets bent out of shape and quits when he gets called on it.
Um, two COMPLETELY different things
 
spartan said:
So really after circling around, we are back to the key juicy question:
Which is worse move -(A) Alcano calling ref on Shane for not calling 'obvious' 10ball in 2nd MP Cup or (B) Shane calling ref on Dennis for using 'inappropriate' tools in this match ?
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I'd be inclined to say that using an out of play ball to determine if a considered shot passes is more of an offense than failing to call an obvious shot.

Both against the rules though.
 
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