another rules?

alphadog

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Score in the rack is me 12 opp 1. Opp is on 1 foul,scratches on 14th ball>I placed ball in corner pocket,tapped it with my tip,called foul on myself and reminded him he was on "two". He kicked at ball and fouled.15 pt. penalty and rerack he has to break.Question I need answered:does the rack score-12-1 get tallied or is it nullified by the rerack? Thanks, Jack
 
14.1

With Q ball in the kitchen you can;t just put the ball in the pocket and touch it for a foul.You must shoot the Q ball past the head string for a legal shot.--Now if you are good enough or lucky or REYES it can be done.FYI if the Q ball is going into a pocket for a scratch and someone catches it ,that is a major foul 15 ball penalty. practice the 14.1 game is comming back.
 
Hank said:
With Q ball in the kitchen you can;t just put the ball in the pocket and touch it for a foul.You must shoot the Q ball past the head string for a legal shot.--Now if you are good enough or lucky or REYES it can be done.FYI if the Q ball is going into a pocket for a scratch and someone catches it ,that is a major foul 15 ball penalty. practice the 14.1 game is comming back.
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Is this for real?
 
In the Wpa rules for 14.1 look under section 4.9 standard fouls. It will take you to section 6. Look at 6.6 Touched Ball. Read the second sentence and the last sentence. This will take you to 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct. This states that it is a serious foul (unless a referee is present, then it is up to his judgement). Serious foul is located in section 4.11 Serious fouls. The penalty for a serious foul is to deduct 15 points and rerack the balls and have the offending player execute an opening break (two object balls and the cueball to a rail).
This is how I understand the rule to be applied if I am wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

Andy
 
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Has this rule changed,or has my Intenional foul from the kitchen always
been a no-no?
 
Thank you all for educating me .I still have the ? about the rack score in case of the 3 foul rerack? Thanks again Jack.
 
Answer

alphadog said:
Score in the rack is me 12 opp 1. Opp is on 1 foul,scratches on 14th ball>I placed ball in corner pocket,tapped it with my tip,called foul on myself and reminded him he was on "two". He kicked at ball and fouled.15 pt. penalty and rerack he has to break.Question I need answered:does the rack score-12-1 get tallied or is it nullified by the rerack? Thanks, Jack
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Jack, If the score was 12 to 1 your favor and your opponent made a third foul (legal third foul) the score would be 12 to -15 going into the second rack.
 
Demondrew said:
In the Wpa rules for 14.1 look under section 4.9 standard fouls. It will take you to section 6. Look at 6.6 Touched Ball. Read the second sentence and the last sentence. This will take you to 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct. This states that it is a serious foul (unless a referee is present, then it is up to his judgement). Serious foul is located in section 4.11 Serious fouls. The penalty for a serious foul is to deduct 15 points and rerack the balls and have the offending player execute an opening break (two object balls and the cueball to a rail).
This is how I understand the rule to be applied if I am wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

Andy
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Isn't 6.11 (Bad Play from Behind the Head String) more applicable than 6.6 (Touched Ball)? The way I understand it he placed the cue ball legally and played a legal stroke. The problem is that he intentionally didn't cross the head string.



6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String

When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.
Click to expand...
 
Hank said:
With Q ball in the kitchen you can;t just put the ball in the pocket and touch it for a foul.You must shoot the Q ball past the head string for a legal shot.--Now if you are good enough or lucky or REYES it can be done.FYI if the Q ball is going into a pocket for a scratch and someone catches it ,that is a major foul 15 ball penalty. practice the 14.1 game is comming back.
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My bad! I sort of hijacked the thread. Hank said "With Q ball in the kitchen you can;t just put the ball in the pocket and touch it for a foul.You must shoot the Q ball past the head string for a legal shot.--Now if you are good enough or lucky or REYES it can be done.FYI if the Q ball is going into a pocket for a scratch and someone catches it ,that is a major foul 15 ball penalty. practice the 14.1 game is comming back." then Alphadog said "Is this for real?" In my haste I thought he was talking about the rule about catching the cueball on the way into the pocket.

In answer to the part of the question on shooting out of the kitchen 6.11 would apply.

Andy
 
Shamos article[photocopied from unknown time-date]

Bob Jewett said:
The corner hook with BIH in the kitchen has never been a part of pool. Here are the World Standardized Rules. I think you'll find quite a few things there that you didn't know were rules but are.
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Recently I have seen a photocopy of a article,by Mike Shamos,which addressed this very subject of a intentional foul with BIH in the kitchen.The article says that the situation came up in world championship match where the incoming player ,with BIH,questioned the ref as to taking fore-mentioned foul.Shamos goes on to say that it is"only a foul",and further states that it was not good that the parties invoved,players and ref, did not know the rule.
I have read the rules and I do agree with 6.11 and believe that as you pointed out this is not "only a foul".I do wonder why such a knowledgeable
writer such as Shamos would write such a article? Is it possible that this foul was once acceptable play?
 
article

Bob Jewett said:
Is there a date on the article?
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Photocopy has no date -You make the call -is possibly name of column?
Frozen Out- is name of article which addresses an event from the 2000
U.S. Straight Pool Open in N.Y. .
I am still trying to find original article!
Thanks.Jack
 
alphadog said:
Photocopy has no date -You make the call -is possibly name of column? Frozen Out- is name of article which addresses an event from the 2000 U.S. Straight Pool Open in N.Y. . I am still trying to find original article!
Thanks.Jack
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That column was in the December 2001 issue of Billiards Digest. I don't think I saw the situation in 2000, but presumably it would have passed fairly quickly.

So now the question is, "Which rules were in effect in the 2000 U.S. 14.1 Open?" Maybe they were the WSR which were accepted in the 1999 General Assembly of the WPA and became effective on January 1st, 2000. In that revision, the following sentence was added to Rule 3.10, Cue Ball in Hand Behind the Headstring:

Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the headstring, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.​

Note that the wording of this rule is broken. It says "or fails" when it should say "and fails."

At 14.1, it is a standard play when you have ball in hand and your opponent is on a foul and you're not and you are looking at a full rack of 15 to lag the cue ball down to the foot rail and back to freeze on the head cushion. It has never, ever been a standard play to freeze the cue ball in a corner hook in this situation. I think you will agree that the corner hook would be a much stronger safety and not the sort of shot that Crane, Mosconi and Caras would have overlooked if it had been permitted as part of the game.

Anyway, according to the above broken wording from 2000, your opponent would have ball in hand for a "lag down and back" safety play rather than having to play from where you lagged the cue ball to.

The current wording for ball in hand play seems to be correct. It is quoted somewhere above.

I don't know which rules were officially in effect in 2000 at the U.S. Open.
 
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

Is this the rule in question on the cornerhook?

Also, since my current exposure to 14.1 consists of individual practice and I don't get a lot of exposure to matchplay, I was curious about another part of this ball in hand rule.

It shows on the chart that if the 15th ball is behind the head string and the cueball ends up in the rack, then you place the cueball on the headspot. In that situation, am I allowed to shoot directly at the 15th ball?
 
Skess said:
... It shows on the chart that if the 15th ball is behind the head string and the cueball ends up in the rack, then you place the cueball on the headspot. In that situation, am I allowed to shoot directly at the 15th ball?
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Since there is no stated restriction on your options in this situation, you are permitted to take any normal shot. If you were not permitted to shoot at the lone object ball, it would make a lot more sense to just give you ball in hand behind the line.
 
I feel like I was screwed now. AlphaDog 3-fouled me with this corner-hook! :p

That's what I get for not knowing the rules!
 
Bob Jewett said:
Since there is no stated restriction on your options in this situation, you are permitted to take any normal shot. If you were not permitted to shoot at the lone object ball, it would make a lot more sense to just give you ball in hand behind the line.
Click to expand...

True...I didn't think of it that way.

Thanks for the help.
 
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