Another video from Stan: The How vs. The Why

BC21 said:
Here, you just posted it a few minutes ago. Lol...


"Way to go. By your post above, you just proved that you have been trolling. Your thick and thin is totally different than what you have been claiming it was in the past."

Your turn.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

This is the only time I intend to play your little games. There you go, and it eliminates your one on me as it proves me right. (And this is just from a few threads)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #70

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #67

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #59

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913 post #38

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462834&page=2 post #50

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462320 post #15

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462320 post #22
 
Vorpal Cue said:
I think I see your problem. Your concentrating on the wrong thing. The right angle through the cue stick doesn't mean anything. Think of putting a dot on the CB where the edge of the tip ends at .256. Move your cue so the spot and CCB are on a straight line. Since .256/1.125 =.228, the new angle has increased (or decreased) by the arc sine of .228 or about 13*. I guess 7* is my 'natural' half tip pivot rotation due to how I built my pivoting mechanics.

You're assuming that the pivot is using the V of the bridge as the center of pivot rotation. Mine is more towards the center of the cue stick. The V is only a 'rest' for the stick and not the pivot 'fulcrum'. This has been discussed before but you may not have seen the info.

There's a reason Stan recommends using a half ball pivot in the beginning. It's easier to build and check their accuracy. Get a 15 perspective on a straight in shot and adjust your pivot until you get back to center OB. If you try to use the system without putting in some hours developing and keeping a repeatable pivot you're on a path to frustration.
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I'm measuring the pivot angle from the center of the tip, which for a half-tip pivot (13mm tip) would be 0.256" from CCB. The left edge of the tip is flush with CCB. So if pivoting from right to left, the center of the tip only moves 0.256" to line up with CCB. Like applying a reverse BHE pivot from an offset, starting with the cue stick aligned parallel with the CCB line, half a tip to the right, then rotate it to CCB. This may not be the CTE pivot though.

I do believe I've read that the pivot point should "feel" like it's somewhere behind the bridge. I think Spidey said it should feel closer to your hip. This would make the pivot angle even smaller with only 0.256" movement on the tip end and a pivot point nearly 30" away. I've also read that your bridge hand slides a little as you pivot, which makes sense because the pivot point/fulcrum is somewhere behind the bridge hand. So bridge isn't stable/fixed. Can you see why, with no set or defined pivot point or fixed bridge, I don't see how this process can be called objective?

I'm sure I've got something wrong. It's just not obvious to me. But I appreciate your input. This pic is how I imagine a 1/2 tip pivot from a 1/2 tip offset.

picture.php
 
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Neil said:
This is the only time I intend to play your little games. There you go, and it eliminates your one on me as it proves me right. (And this is just from a few threads)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #70

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #67

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #59

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913 post #38

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462834&page=2 post #50

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462320 post #15

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462320 post #22
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I read the first example you linked, which is supposed to show that I've made a false accusation or made some conflicting comment when compared to my other comments. But it doesn't. I didn't bother going to the other links, but I hope others do so they can see I've been very consistent with my questions and statements. I'll check the other links when I have time. They'll probably be like the first one, where I posted something you disagree with and therefore you are calling false, despite the truthfulness of my comments.
 
can any of you guys post videos of you using your systems to run racks? Making a shot is just part of playing pool, you also have to be able to pull shape as well. That would help most people out I think
 
There is a pattern here. Everytime I write something you don't like, you think it's a false accusation or some sort of slander. So I added my comments to the first few links of "proof" you provided. I don't have time to show the others, but the pattern is consistent, as is my stance on the topic of pivots/thick and thin.

Neil said:
This is the only time I intend to play your little games. There you go, and it eliminates your one on me as it proves me right. (And this is just from a few threads)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #70

Here is what I wrote concerning thick or thin: "The visual lines, perception, shot alignment to CCB, and the effects of a 1/2 tip pivot, are all possible to illustrate on paper. Not the sweep because it's more of a feel -- the player just knows where to sweep from and to in order to adjust for a perfect overcut alignment. Mohrt has already posted that it's a players individual judgement that determines the sweep. That's always been obvious, though never acknowledged until recently. "

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #67

Here is what I wrote concerning thick or thin: "To me, the exact thin or thick sweep is a judgement call/feel based on memory recognition. That would explain the unexplainable, like a feel player not being able to explain how he or she aims, only to say "I just see the shots."

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913&page=2 post #59

Here again is what I wrote concerning thick or thin:. "Ok. I thought recognizing think or thin was something you do by comparing what "looks" right for the shot to what the actual perception is giving you. Some CTE users use the GB or just look at the angle of the shot to do this comparison."


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462913 post #38

And again, concerning thick or thin, I wrote: "I asked Stan this same question about determining thick or thin. He said any player can recognize whether or not the perception is providing a thick or thin CCB alignment. He insisted it was an automatic process, that the player would just know. I suggested they would only know if they were already good shooters, so this determination of thick or thin is based on individual player experience, not on any solid objective criteria."

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462834&page=2 post #50

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462320 post #15

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462320 post #22
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Vorpal Cue said:
I had a bit of trouble with my bridge placement when first starting. I think it was due to my casual placement doing CP aiming. I would move my bridge around and tweak it a little this way and then that... you get the idea. After you do some work on your pivoting and learn CCB it becomes automatic (at least in my case) to put the bridge down. I have my stick over CCB and drop straight down and my hand finds it's position under it. After that, a stroke is just a stroke. I'm using a manual half ball pivot, can't say anything about the sweeps.
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It's great you were able to work it out.

However, the kinds of movements we're talking about changes the alignment of a players setup. Sure, it might get them on the right aiming line but everything from the bridge hand on back has now been shifted and not necessarily for the better. If a player's mechanics are sound, moving things around for the sake of sighting the ball could end up reducing the overall quality of their play.

I know that in my case doing all that sweeping and sliding would be a disaster.

Lou Figueroa
 
eddie0776 said:
can any of you guys post videos of you using your systems to run racks? Making a shot is just part of playing pool, you also have to be able to pull shape as well. That would help most people out I think
Click to expand...


I've asked for this too a couple of times.

Lou Figueroa
 
Vorpal Cue said:
I think I see your problem. Your concentrating on the wrong thing. The right angle through the cue stick doesn't mean anything. Think of putting a dot on the CB where the edge of the tip ends at .256. Move your cue so the spot and CCB are on a straight line. Since .256/1.125 =.228, the new angle has increased (or decreased) by the arc sine of .228 or about 13*. I guess 7* is my 'natural' half tip pivot rotation due to how I built my pivoting mechanics.

You're assuming that the pivot is using the V of the bridge as the center of pivot rotation. Mine is more towards the center of the cue stick. The V is only a 'rest' for the stick and not the pivot 'fulcrum'. This has been discussed before but you may not have seen the info.

There's a reason Stan recommends using a half ball pivot in the beginning. It's easier to build and check their accuracy. Get a 15 perspective on a straight in shot and adjust your pivot until you get back to center OB. If you try to use the system without putting in some hours developing and keeping a repeatable pivot you're on a path to frustration.
Click to expand...


Brian, I would like to add to the above in Bold is that the "V" of the bridge hand will fall down on the table based on the perception line. You will notice when you lay your cue into the "V" that the tip of the cue is not pointing at CCB it will be off by 1/2 to 1 tip. Pivot the cue to CCB pull back the cue and shoot.

What your probably going to experience is that your eyes will want to find a contact point on the object ball and your brain is going to tell you, "something isn't right" :)

All the years that most have been playing, you always laid the "V" of the bridge hand on the shot line. In learning CTE that is not true, the "V" is placed on the perception line and then the cue is pivoted to the shot line (CCB).

Thanks for being patient with trying to figure out CTE.

John
 
I know stan can play, but I want to see the followers of these systems that say this system is better than that one. Stan has been playing very well for years before CTE come out. We have seen members banned over and over because of these threads and I would like to see how well they play using these systems. I find that they all have good points and drawbacks. For me if the idea is to make a cinch shot where the main focus is only on making the ball with position not being a big priority then any of the systems are great. But if you have to move the cue ball around the table then there are several new variables that have to be calculated for. This is not disputable by anyone that has been playing for any length of time. I have been playing for 30 years on all of the different type of tables, felts, rails, balls as well as shafts (high deflection and low deflection). You can go to a couple of different pool rooms within 20 miles of each other and the tables will play totally different. So if you use inside English at one room you might get 1/4 inch skid but at the other room it could be 1/2-3/4 inch skid. These are the reasons that people have a hard time with the systems. If you play only center English then these systems will work for you but your chances of running out are over and over are slim. Guys if just using these systems was the key then Stan, Stevie Moore and CJ would never loose a tourney but none of them have won one in quite some time. So lets see how well y'all use these systems running racks.
 
One Pocket John said:
[/B]

Brian, I would like to add to the above in Bold is that the "V" of the bridge hand will fall down on the table based on the perception line. You will notice when you lay your cue into the "V" that the tip of the cue is not pointing at CCB it will be off by 1/2 to 1 tip. Pivot the cue to CCB pull back the cue and shoot.

What your probably going to experience is that your eyes will want to find a contact point on the object ball and your brain is going to tell you, "something isn't right" :)

All the years that most have been playing, you always laid the "V" of the bridge hand on the shot line. In learning CTE that is not true, the "V" is placed on the perception line and then the cue is pivoted to the shot line (CCB).

Thanks for being patient with trying to figure out CTE.

John
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Thank you. This is what I thought based on Stan's masking tape video.
 
BC21 said:
Thank you. This is what I thought based on Stan's masking tape video.
Click to expand...

Good.
This is after you have worked with the manual pivoting for a while.
Now here is the next obstacle you may encounter, coming straight down on center cue ball or sweeping to center cue ball. Man, it took me forever to get this one figured out.

What helped me was a youtube video of an instructor using a ghost ball in conjunction with CTE.

So, after watching the video a few times. I started using my method of aiming (not ghost ball I use the back of OB) and combined it with CTE to determine whether the shot was a thin, thick or right on "A","B" or "C" perception. This worked out real well for me because then I knew whether I should drop straight down or to sweep. For me sweep means that I lead into the shot with my left shoulder. (right handed player)

With your playing ability (feel) and being able to figure things out you should catch on quickly.

I don't use CTE exclusively because I'm comfortable with my style. It is a cool system though.

John :)
 
lfigueroa said:
It's great you were able to work it out.

However, the kinds of movements we're talking about changes the alignment of a players setup. Sure, it might get them on the right aiming line but everything from the bridge hand on back has now been shifted and not necessarily for the better. If a player's mechanics are sound, moving things around for the sake of sighting the ball could end up reducing the overall quality of their play.

I know that in my case doing all that sweeping and sliding would be a disaster.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

You're right, it will be a disaster for a while. It's uncomfortable and cramped at first and it takes some table time to get all the pieces working together. The body motions are different along with the sight picture. I can understand why some players are unwilling to change their style of play. The solution for you is simple: FORGETABOUTIT. If you're not going to work it on the table you'll never understand it.
 
One Pocket John said:
Good.
This is after you have worked with the manual pivoting for a while.
Now here is the next obstacle you may encounter, coming straight down on center cue ball or sweeping to center cue ball. Man, it took me forever to get this one figured out.

What helped me was a youtube video of an instructor using a ghost ball in conjunction with CTE.

So, after watching the video a few times. I started using my method of aiming (not ghost ball I use the back of OB) and combined it with CTE to determine whether the shot was a thin, thick or right on "A","B" or "C" perception. This worked out real well for me because then I knew whether I should drop straight down or to sweep. For me sweep means that I lead into the shot with my left shoulder. (right handed player)

With your playing ability (feel) and being able to figure things out you should catch on quickly.

I don't use CTE exclusively because I'm comfortable with my style. It is a cool system though.

John :)
Click to expand...

Thanks again. All of this fits right into what I thought. I also ref back of ob (fractional aim points) to determine if the perception looks thin or thick or dead on. I just don't have the time to work with the system in the manner it takes to develop consistency. But that doesn't mean I can't try to figure out why it works when it works and why it doesn't when it doesn't. I'm a puzzle guy. :grin-square:
 
BC21 said:
Thanks again. All of this fits right into what I thought. I also ref back of ob (fractional aim points) to determine if the perception looks thin or thick or dead on. I just don't have the time to work with the system in the manner it takes to develop consistency. But that doesn't mean I can't try to figure out why it works when it works and why it doesn't when it doesn't. I'm a puzzle guy. :grin-square:
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Cool.:)

I'm going to do some research into vision and perception and how the eyes perceive things.

Stan has mentioned that he is trying to get with a university that specializes in visual perception.

I would like to know why it works.

Have fun. :)
Over and Out.

John
 
I dont see how any player isn't sweeping one way or another in the form of a offset. Even with guys like chohan or Domingez who shoot down the line are offset by shifting their head and eye and whole body over the cue and stroking very close to their right pant pocket which i call shooting underneath your girth.....not a knock on chohan being a big boy because oscar is obviously skinny and shoots very similar.

It's like target shooting in a sense but their whole alignment is offset and it's very different from average players but it's a lot more common for good players.

You can spot this set up easily if you notice it's harder to see there grip position as opposed to a Earl strikland set up for instance. This is a very good solve for a right handed player with a very dominant left eye but it also depends on the way your body is built and how your hip pivot's etc etc.

It's not for every player but the point is, most people offset to one degree or another but I agree that someone like lou is as close to target shooting down the line as possible but that's also why he has a very unique head position which is a offset no matter how one slice and dice's it.

Just my opinion but I feel very comfortable with my statements.
 
paultex said:
I dont see how any player isn't sweeping one way or another in the form of a offset. Even with guys like chohan or Domingez who shoot down the line are offset by shifting their head and eye and whole body over the cue and stroking very close to their right pant pocket which i call shooting underneath your girth.....not a knock on chohan being a big boy because oscar is obviously skinny and shoots very similar.

It's like target shooting in a sense but their whole alignment is offset and it's very different from average players but it's a lot more common for good players.

You can spot this set up easily if you notice it's harder to see there grip position as opposed to a Earl strikland set up for instance. This is a very good solve for a right handed player with a very dominant left eye but it also depends on the way your body is built and how your hip pivot's etc etc.

It's not for every player but the point is, most people offset to one degree or another but I agree that someone like lou is as close to target shooting down the line as possible but that's also why he has a very unique head position which is a offset no matter how one slice and dice's it.

Just my opinion but I feel very comfortable with my statements.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by offset? If I shoot left eye dominant, center or right eye behind the shot line where does "offset" come in? The offset I'm aware of is pivoting the cue to the shot line so that the cue is now "offset" to the aim line when you got down on the shot. So for players that don't do that, how do you know they are using some kind of offset?
 
paultex said:
I dont see how any player isn't sweeping one way or another in the form of a offset. Even with guys like chohan or Domingez who shoot down the line are offset by shifting their head and eye and whole body over the cue and stroking very close to their right pant pocket which i call shooting underneath your girth.....not a knock on chohan being a big boy because oscar is obviously skinny and shoots very similar.

It's like target shooting in a sense but their whole alignment is offset and it's very different from average players but it's a lot more common for good players.

You can spot this set up easily if you notice it's harder to see there grip position as opposed to a Earl strikland set up for instance. This is a very good solve for a right handed player with a very dominant left eye but it also depends on the way your body is built and how your hip pivot's etc etc.

It's not for every player but the point is, most people offset to one degree or another but I agree that someone like lou is as close to target shooting down the line as possible but that's also why he has a very unique head position which is a offset no matter how one slice and dice's it.

Just my opinion but I feel very comfortable with my statements.
Click to expand...

The thing is, it's a natural motion for right-handed players to bring their cue in from the left, and left-handed players to bring it in from the right. It absolutely does not mean we are doing some precise pivot sweep directly into the shot line. Stan likes to think all pro players are doing CTE Pro1 and just don't realize it. I think that's a far reach. This sweeping cue motion that nearly 99% or more players use is nothing more than the same sweeping motion a hunter makes when bringing a rifle into the line of site.
 
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