Any REALLY GOOD SOLUTION/CEANER-"CLEAN/Remove SHAFT BLUEING????

mortuarymike-nv said:
I do, I think that is exactly what predator saying .

I think cleaning a predator shaft with water will void the warranty .........................

Predators warranty

*WARRANTY INFORMATION
As the manufacturer of the highest quality billiards products on the market today, Predator Products (Predator) is committed to the performance and durability of its products. To protect your investment, Predator offers a Limited Lifetime Warranty against manufacturing defects. If you ever experience a problem that you believe is covered under warranty, please return your product to us and/or email us at Customer Service. Please note that this warranty does not cover problems resulting from wood warping or abuse.
Terms And Conditions. Predator warrants solely to the original purchaser of the product, for as long as he/she may own it, that it shall be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use. This Limited Lifetime Warranty is non-transferrable and does not apply to asserted defects resulting from: (a) normal wear and tear; (b) modification, misuse, abuse or improper maintenance; and/or (c) damage associated with exposure to extreme temperature or humidity.
This Limited Lifetime Warranty applies only to those products purchased from authorized dealers of Predator. Predator shafts designed for Uni-Loc® and Radial® joints are only warranted when coupled with Original Uni-Loc® and Radial® joints.


Predators suggested method of cleaning

Stay Away From Abrasives
Do not use any abrasives on your shaft and stay away from green pads in Pool Rooms. Using abrasives is going to take the diameter of your shaft down and modify the shape of your taper. It may even void the warranty of your Predator shaft if the ferrule or wood diameter falls below 12.25mm for 314 shafts and 11.4mm for Z shafts. Very fine micro papers (1500 grit) or burnishing is about all you need.
________________________________________________________________

Personally I consider all laminated LD shafts as being fragile.
There are allot of things a cue repair person or the owner can do in maintaining these laminated shafts that will void the warranty where on a solid maple shaft it wouldn't .
I am not so sure denatured alcohol will not void the warranty on some of these laminated LD shafts .
Which is one of the fluids I use to clean solid maple shafts.
Makes me wonder if some players who hands sweat a lot isn't the cause of some of these shafts to warp .

I want to do the best possible job on the cue brought into me for repairs and not damage the cue or shaft in the process of repairing it and maintaining it.

Everyone in here needs to be up to date on what will void the warranty on certain shafts and what the best maintenance procedures or what is the recommended factory maintenance procedures for that companies products.
Click to expand...

Again, though, other than your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to and which deserves a measure of credibility because you have always been a solid contributor here and I am in no way denigrating it, is there any actual evidence that laminated are more vulnerable to water than solid? And I mean the way water might be used in cleaning (e.g., a slightly damp Magic Eraser), not putting the shafts in a puddle.

Companies love to have fine sounding warranties with small print exonerating themselves fro responsibility.
 
reason

The Predator warranty is in place partly because they know that people have their cues worked on at shows and tournaments. They know that 90 percent of their cues will be put in a position to void the warranty. So if you're honest with them - they don't have to go good for anything. I haven't had the best luck with them. The water voids the warranty because it causes movement in the wood. When the wood moves - it starts to tear away from the glue at the laminations. Every shaft that has come into my shop with delaminations has had cracks beside the glue line. With every impact - the crack opens and elongates. This problem is magnified by the first 5 inches of the shaft being hollow. When you play draw, or any other English, the strain is focused on one glue line and thin, dry piece of wood with no support behind it, because of the hollow core. I will not buy Predator products anymore.
 
Shaft cleaning

KissedOut said:
Again, though, other than your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to and which deserves a measure of credibility because you have always been a solid contributor here and I am in no way denigrating it, is there any actual evidence that laminated are more vulnerable to water than solid? And I mean the way water might be used in cleaning (e.g., a slightly damp Magic Eraser), not putting the shafts in a puddle.

Companies love to have fine sounding warranties with small print exonerating themselves fro responsibility.
Click to expand...

No I have done zero experiments on Laminated LD shafts to see what will damage them .

Knowing that water might void the customers warranty I have no choice but to not to use water in less I am willing to replace the shaft if it warps or delaminates.

I am sorry, but I am not willing to replace ( any )customers laminated LD shaft that warps or delaminates just because I used water on the shaft to clean it.

Its a lot easier to look up what the shaft makers cleaning recommendations are follow them and if there is a issue with the shaft make sure its not because I did something that might void the warranty .
 
fine

That's fine. Alcohol is the only approved liquid in Predator's warranty. The Magic Eraser is ok too. They have a stipulated diameter that you cannot turn/reduce a shaft beyond to void the warranty. The Magic Eraser will not take it down that much. You should seal the shaft afterwards though. Renaissance wax is a good choice - or thinned shellac.
 
mortuarymike-nv said:

No I have done zero experiments on Laminated LD shafts to see what will damage them .

Knowing that water might void the customers warranty I have no choice but to not to use water in less I am willing to replace the shaft if it warps or delaminates.

I am sorry, but I am not willing to replace ( any )customers laminated LD shaft that warps or delaminates just because I used water on the shaft to clean it.

Its a lot easier to look up what the shaft makers cleaning recommendations are follow them and if there is a issue with the shaft make sure its not because I did something that might void the warranty .
Click to expand...

I appreciate your answer and from a business point of view it makes complete sense. I'm not sure it bears on the issue as it might apply to a player cleaning their own shaft, but this IS the cuemaker's place and you are undoubtedly wise, as a cuemaker, to not void your customers' warranties.
 
Predator stands out from all other brands, their shafts seems underengineered by design.
I take the time to read the fineprint on Predator products as they have more fine print than most products.
Don`t sand, don`t use abrasives and stay away from solvent based materials and you should be good.
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
http://www.predatorcues.com/technique/

The purpose of burnishing your shaft is to smooth and seal the wood. The more you burnish, the better the finish and, the slicker and more moisture resistant your shaft becomes. Moisture is the #1 enemy of your shaft. It causes the grain to raise and your shaft to warp. To burnish your shaft, use a leather burnisher and avoid abrasives. Sanding your shaft wears it down and makes the wood porous, which allows moisture to penetrate the grain and damage the wood.

I
Click to expand...

MY SHAFTS are coated with a water based sanding sealer. Cleaning with a slightly damp rag or paper towel will not cut the sealer or reach the wood enough to raise the grain. I also use a quick evaporating solvent to clean the shafts of glue residue, this is also after the sanding sealer is applied. Neither harm the shaft. Like Predator shafts one should not use an abrasive on my shafts although 1500 or finer as a final component of cleaning will do little harm. By the way, once the glue for the laminates is dry it is water proof.
For the remarks regarding cracking and the glue line. The glue is stronger than the wood, if the glue line was bad then the shaft would come apart at the glue line. The crack in the wood is a different problem.
 
Laminated Shafts

I just read through all the replies about water on laminated shafts.

I really believe it is no different than a standard one piece shaft. I have yet to hear any good reason or evidence showing it is of any more concern. In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

I saw the warranty concern, but that is in there to give them an out for warranty claims. It does not expressly say to not use water to clean a shaft, or that doing so voids the warranty. On that angle, I would contact a predator rep. The way it is worded is referring to actual water damage to excess water and humidity. Not the little bit of moisture that I am talking about when I clean a shaft.

I actually happen to work in the water damage restoration business. I deal with water and humidity damage everyday. I also have a good background in woodworking and carpentry.

Lets think about this for a minute. Why do they make things out of a laminated wood verses using a single piece of hardwood? What is the reason?

Usually it is due to increased strength and consistency (as well as cost concerns) Think about a shelf. You could make a shelf out of a single piece of maple, or out of a piece of maple plywood. Which is more likely to warp if exposed to water or humidity, one single piece of wood or many layers of wood bonded together? I know I used to make cabinets out of plywood with sold wood doors and drawer fronts. If you know how wood reacts and moves, you would understand that laminated wood is less likely to move or warp.

Predator shafts are made from ten pieces of cross grain matched wedges. If you hold the shaft with the tip facing down, you can imagine ten equal wedges in a circle that is turned down into a shaft.

The reason for this design is for radial consistency.Meaning the flex of the shaft will be more consistent than a standard one piece maple shaft. When using a single piece shaft, if the grain of the shaft is oriented horizontally on one shot, then the cue is rotated and the grain is oriented vertically on the next shot, the flex of the shaft will be different. Predators construction method reduces this quite a bit. This is done for playability reasons.

In other words, it was done to address the way the wood moves (flexes) upon impact. Likewise, it would also be less likely to move (warp) as a result of water or humidity. Of course, it still will move. If you leave it in a hot and humid environment, it can still warp.

In fact, I recently pulled out a predator cue that I had put away in storage for about 7 years. The butt had actually moved (warped). The shaft was fine. The shaft rolled perfectly straight. When you put it together, you could see the shaft had moved a little and did not roll true. So the larger single piece of wood moved, while the thinner, tapered laminated shaft did not.

I do not see how you can make a case that a laminated shaft is more likely to warp than a non laminated one. Either can warp under the right conditions, but a little moisture in a controlled manner wont do it.

That being said, I have been cleaning my shafts in a similar fashion for over twenty years. No issues from it ever.

I also do burnish the shaft after cleaning as well.
 
agree

I agree with everything you said. The problem arises at the end of the shaft where it is bored approximately 5 inches beyond the ferrule. This is to decrease weight for low deflection. That takes away the stability of the wedges pushing towards each other - thus, weakening the shaft. If it were solid all the way to the end - there would be far fewer problems. But... it would lose it's niche market - low deflection.
 
I agree with poolpro. I have been using water to clean shafts since day 1. I've had no problems with solid maple shafts or laminated shafts. I do have a question for the guys that don't use water. How do you get dings or dents out of the shaft?
 
poolpro said:
I just read through all the replies about water on laminated shafts.

I really believe it is no different than a standard one piece shaft. I have yet to hear any good reason or evidence showing it is of any more concern. In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

I saw the warranty concern, but that is in there to give them an out for warranty claims. It does not expressly say to not use water to clean a shaft, or that doing so voids the warranty. On that angle, I would contact a predator rep. The way it is worded is referring to actual water damage to excess water and humidity. Not the little bit of moisture that I am talking about when I clean a shaft.

I actually happen to work in the water damage restoration business. I deal with water and humidity damage everyday. I also have a good background in woodworking and carpentry.

Lets think about this for a minute. Why do they make things out of a laminated wood verses using a single piece of hardwood? What is the reason?

Usually it is due to increased strength and consistency (as well as cost concerns) Think about a shelf. You could make a shelf out of a single piece of maple, or out of a piece of maple plywood. Which is more likely to warp if exposed to water or humidity, one single piece of wood or many layers of wood bonded together? I know I used to make cabinets out of plywood with sold wood doors and drawer fronts. If you know how wood reacts and moves, you would understand that laminated wood is less likely to move or warp.

Predator shafts are made from ten pieces of cross grain matched wedges. If you hold the shaft with the tip facing down, you can imagine ten equal wedges in a circle that is turned down into a shaft.

The reason for this design is for radial consistency.Meaning the flex of the shaft will be more consistent than a standard one piece maple shaft. When using a single piece shaft, if the grain of the shaft is oriented horizontally on one shot, then the cue is rotated and the grain is oriented vertically on the next shot, the flex of the shaft will be different. Predators construction method reduces this quite a bit. This is done for playability reasons.

In other words, it was done to address the way the wood moves (flexes) upon impact. Likewise, it would also be less likely to move (warp) as a result of water or humidity. Of course, it still will move. If you leave it in a hot and humid environment, it can still warp.

In fact, I recently pulled out a predator cue that I had put away in storage for about 7 years. The butt had actually moved (warped). The shaft was fine. The shaft rolled perfectly straight. When you put it together, you could see the shaft had moved a little and did not roll true. So the larger single piece of wood moved, while the thinner, tapered laminated shaft did not.

I do not see how you can make a case that a laminated shaft is more likely to warp than a non laminated one. Either can warp under the right conditions, but a little moisture in a controlled manner wont do it.

That being said, I have been cleaning my shafts in a similar fashion for over twenty years. No issues from it ever.

I also do burnish the shaft after cleaning as well.
Click to expand...

I totally agree!
 
The glue used for the lamination on the Predator shafts is water soluble. That is why they warn against water.
 
dents

I steam dents out. But I don't use water. I use ammonia. 3 - 4 layers of paper towel or a rag - then heat up an old screwdriver or similar object. Touch the hot steel to the ammonia soaked towel. It steams quicker than water, and dries quicker.
 
An old gunsmithing trick for treating dents in wood stocks is to use a wet patch (cloth) and a soldering iron.
 
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