# Any reference points for 2 rail position

#### lfigueroa

##### AzB Silver Member
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Lou
Let’s agree to disagree
For sure feel comes into playing pool because we are not robots
Just like an adjustment is necessary if the table plays “ short” or “ long “
And for speed control
But playing by the numbers gives me a great guideline for where the cue ball is going
As for hopes book it is full of errors
There are much better system references available

The point wasn't about the book, merely the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the diamonds.

Instead of paying attention to the diamonds you might try just observing how the balls behave when you change variables like CB hit, speed, and elevation.

Lou Figueroa

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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The point wasn't about the book, merely the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the diamonds.

Instead of paying attention to the diamonds you might try just observing how the balls behave when you change variables like CB hit, speed, and elevation.

Lou Figueroa
I think the various systems can provide a framework for position practice, but mostly I agree with Lou.

As an example, consider the shot below with two-cushion position. From this position, you should be able to put the cue ball anywhere on the line between the two side pockets going two rails. While the "Plus 2" system may help with some of the shots, it won't apply to the shots where you have no side spin or even reverse. The main thing to learn is the angle you can achieve into the first cushion with draw/follow and second in importance is how you can change the angles with side.

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#### sparkle84

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the location on that first rail is pretty definable, but I'm not so sure about the real angle. When doubling the same pocket the ob is going into then I'm typically going to be hitting firm with some inside. So I'll be traveling along the tangent line for bit before the follow kicks in. For the precision I'd like to get on the final resting place of the cb I'm not sure I can predict that angle with enough precision. I'd have to give it more of a try and see.

This is the shot that I said let's put aside in my first post due to the multitude of variables. Seeing as you brought it up....
Typically you'll encounter this shot in 14.1 when you got bad position on the key ball.
Original plan was to come off the long rail out towards the middle for the BS but you end up with the opposite angle.
I'm not saying not to practice this shot but I am saying that it's impossible to stand back and consciously try in a measurable way to predict the point on / or angle into the short rail. Ultimately it's all feel so the more you do it the better you'll get.
A very smooth pure stroke is essential here and the OB going into the outside (short rail side) of the pocket helps.
One good thing is there's a decent amount of margin for error, all things considered.

#### sparkle84

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dan is addressing two-rail position plays, not kicks, and that there that is feel.

As to the diamonds,

Feel is better than a system because you have to instantaneously adapt each shot to the specific location of the balls and the condition of the table. Robert Byrnes's "McGoorty The Story of a Billiard Bum"" is one of the great books on billiards. Here's a story from it on Willie Hoppe:

#####
“In Hoppe’s book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to the Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the system. He looked up at me and said, “You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.’

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me the book and say, ‘Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.’

‘My boy,’ I say, ‘it can’t be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.’

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn’t need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue a little and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? f*ck the system.’”
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Lou Figueroa

Nice post Lou. Like Bob, I largely agree with the feel aspect.
That said, I do think diamond systems are useful at times. I'm a better pool player but did achieve a degree of proficiency in 3C back in the day. Hi run is 12. Played in the same room as Carlos Hallon, Dick Reid and Larry Johnson.
From talking to them and others I'd submit that the majority of top 3C players know and use diamond systems.
They'll use them to plot their path around the table and feed their brain with info but when they get down to shoot "feel" takes over.
It's the same with pool. You look the table over and feed your brain with info which might include consideration of a diamond system. But when you go to shoot all that better be forgotten or you won't get too far in this game.
You'll learn a little about systems playing 3C but more importantly you'll get a better grasp of what you've alluded to here, an awareness of speed and varying hits on the CB to produce certain results.
Thanks again to Dan for the question. What makes pool so complicated and wonderful is you could write a book on his question alone.

#### lfigueroa

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the various systems can provide a framework for position practice, but mostly I agree with Lou.

As an example, consider the shot below with two-cushion position. From this position, you should be able to put the cue ball anywhere on the line between the two side pockets going two rails. While the "Plus 2" system may help with some of the shots, it won't apply to the shots where you have no side spin or even reverse. The main thing to learn is the angle you can achieve into the first cushion with draw/follow and second in importance is how you can change the angles with side.

Bob, I think there are some diamond things to use going to the "outside" of a shot.

But Dan also asked about going "inside" around the pocket being used and I think for those all bets are off when it comes to the diamonds.

Lou Figueroa

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#### lfigueroa

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice post Lou. Like Bob, I largely agree with the feel aspect.
That said, I do think diamond systems are useful at times. I'm a better pool player but did achieve a degree of proficiency in 3C back in the day. Hi run is 12. Played in the same room as Carlos Hallon, Dick Reid and Larry Johnson.
From talking to them and others I'd submit that the majority of top 3C players know and use diamond systems.
They'll use them to plot their path around the table and feed their brain with info but when they get down to shoot "feel" takes over.
It's the same with pool. You look the table over and feed your brain with info which might include consideration of a diamond system. But when you go to shoot all that better be forgotten or you won't get too far in this game.
You'll learn a little about systems playing 3C but more importantly you'll get a better grasp of what you've alluded to here, an awareness of speed and varying hits on the CB to produce certain results.
Thanks again to Dan for the question. What makes pool so complicated and wonderful is you could write a book on his question alone.

I occasionally play 3C, particularly when I travel to Mexico, and understand what you're saying.

But bottomline for me -- far from a top line player -- is to go with feel.

Lou Figueroa

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Bob, I think there are some things to used going to the "outside" of a shot.

But Dan also asked about going "inside" around the pocket being used and I think for those all bets are off when it comes to the diamonds.

Lou Figueroa
Well, if you mean a shot like this....

... then I agree that there is no well-known diamond system to handle it. (I can't swear that none of the 2,873 systems in Walt Harris' "Atlases" applies.) You could start to puzzle it out by figuring the path you can get into the first cushion (straight at it) and the maximum angle you can get off the first cushion with lots of side (a little less than 45 degrees) but those parts don't qualify as using the diamonds.

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#### lfigueroa

##### AzB Silver Member
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Well, if you mean a shot like this....

View attachment 555382
... then I agree that there is no well-known diamond system to handle it. (I can't swear that none of the 2,873 systems in Walt Harris' "Atlases" applies.) You could start to puzzle it out by figuring the path you can get into the first cushion (straight at it) and the maximum angle you can get off the first cushion with lots of side (a little more than 45 degrees) but those parts don't qualify as using the diamonds.

Yes, that's the shot I mean.

There are so many variables for that one that it is a shot that takes time to learn given all the options -- but it is invaluable.

Lou Figueroa

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"Duplicate post

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#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
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Well, if you mean a shot like this....

View attachment 555382
... then I agree that there is no well-known diamond system to handle it. (I can't swear that none of the 2,873 systems in Walt Harris' "Atlases" applies.) You could start to puzzle it out by figuring the path you can get into the first cushion (straight at it) and the maximum angle you can get off the first cushion with lots of side (a little less than 45 degrees) but those parts don't qualify as using the diamonds.

There is a Japanese system for that that is helpful

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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There is a Japanese system for that
Does the system require you to know the approach angle to the first cushion?

#### 7stud

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Robert Byrnes's "McGoorty The Story of a Billiard Bum""
Is that the same book as "McGoorty : A Pool Room Hustler" by Robert Byrne?

#### Bob Jewett

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Is that the same book as "McGoorty : A Pool Room Hustler" by Robert Byrne?
Yes, there were four or five editions. The hardback first edition (The Story of a Billiard Bum) does not have pictures, the paperback edition does:

Avoid the Sports Illustrated edition because they left out the pictures at the last minute but left the captions in:

#### Dan White

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ah, Grasshopper, there are no reference points for two-railers.

It's all feel and experience involving where you hit the CB, speed, and even elevation. It's a great shot to have in your arsenal but pretty much like every other shot on a pool table, what you do with the CB is a blend of many factors.

Lou Figueroa

Well that sucks. You're no fun, Lou.

#### Dan White

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, if you mean a shot like this....

View attachment 555382
... then I agree that there is no well-known diamond system to handle it. (I can't swear that none of the 2,873 systems in Walt Harris' "Atlases" applies.) You could start to puzzle it out by figuring the path you can get into the first cushion (straight at it) and the maximum angle you can get off the first cushion with lots of side (a little less than 45 degrees) but those parts don't qualify as using the diamonds.

Bob and Lou: Yes, this is really the shot I had most interest in. Not just for key ball position play, but for really any shot coming around the corner for inside. I could simply set up a reference shot and learn where the cb ends up, but often that only works for a specific shot and does not generalize very well, if you know what I mean.

#### Dan White

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is the shot that I said let's put aside in my first post due to the multitude of variables. Seeing as you brought it up....
Typically you'll encounter this shot in 14.1 when you got bad position on the key ball.
Original plan was to come off the long rail out towards the middle for the BS but you end up with the opposite angle.
I'm not saying not to practice this shot but I am saying that it's impossible to stand back and consciously try in a measurable way to predict the point on / or angle into the short rail. Ultimately it's all feel so the more you do it the better you'll get.
A very smooth pure stroke is essential here and the OB going into the outside (short rail side) of the pocket helps.
One good thing is there's a decent amount of margin for error, all things considered.

I was always unsatisfied with my knowledge of how the cb comes out of that corner. The last time I came around the corner and ruined my break ball I swore that I was going to learn that shot. My first step was to come here and see what people knew about it.

I'm going to spend some time with it and maybe I'll come up with something useful.

#### gerard soriano

##### HIGH RUN STILL TO COME !
Silver Member
i disagree its all feel
the diamond are your friends...let them speak to you[

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#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I could simply set up a reference shot and learn where the cb ends up, but often that only works for a specific shot and does not generalize very well, if you know what I mean.
Especially since the angle into the first rail is so sensitive to things like cut angle, shot speed and the OB's distance from the rail, all of which vary with these shots.

pj
chgo

Silver Member

#### lfigueroa

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob and Lou: Yes, this is really the shot I had most interest in. Not just for key ball position play, but for really any shot coming around the corner for inside. I could simply set up a reference shot and learn where the cb ends up, but often that only works for a specific shot and does not generalize very well, if you know what I mean.

Yes.

That's why I say you have to learn how all the variables come into play. However, Larry has a Japanese system that will help. I hope he explains it to us all.

Lou Figueroa