I'm sure of it, provided you don't miscue.jsp said:
any truth to slight elevation on draw shots?
- Thread starter PKM
- Start date
I don't really think it's an apples/oranges comparison. After all, any elevated cue will "squeeze" the CB against the table to some extent. Remember, the CB wants to travel exactly parallel to the direction of the stroke (disregarding squirt). If the cue is elevated, the CB naturally wants to travel down through the table at the extent of the cue elevation. Obviously, the table will impede any vertical movement (below the table surface), but the cue doesn't stop moving in the direction of elevation, and what you get is an increase in cue/CB contact time. But like Bob mentioned...provided you don't miscue.td873 said:
Maximum offset will not change based on masse angle. If you are at 80 degrees and maximum offset, you will be striking the cue ball like this:jsp said:
and not like this:
In the second illustration, the cue ball would be "sqeezed," which is a different shot than we are discussing. Put another way, as you move closer to the center of the ball (i.e., decrease offset shown in illustration 2), you are "squeezing" the cue ball between the tip and the table, which is, indeed, apples and oranges.
My intuitive understanding is that at the maximum offset, at 80 degrees, you will not have a longer contact time, since the cue ball is not being squeezed. Unless, of course, simply having a downward component mandates increased contact time. I believe this is you position.
Taking this one step further implies that the higher downward component of a shot (vector wise) the longer the contact time. If this was so, then a (true) masse shot would have a longer contact time than a top shot, which would have a longer contact time than a center ball shot, which would likewise have a longer contact time than a draw shot. This is so because shooting with top english and a level stroke results in a downward component to the shot. I.e., the cue ball wants to travel through the table. Thus, this should result in a longer contact time as well, since the table is impeding the ball. I'm not sure this happens, and have never given it much thought.
In any event, squeezing the cue ball to impart spin is not an accurate comparison to hitting at a maximum offset - even if the result is the same RPMs.
-td
WesleyW said:
Huge difference between 1 and 1.5 draw distance! By 1 table, do you mean 8 diamonds in length (in other words you can only draw a full table without hitting a rail by placing the OB in the jaws of a corner pocket.)
1.5 table length = TWELVE diamonds of length which is a REALLY sporty stroke!
Regards,
Jim
softshot said:
If I may jump in here...the tip remains in contact with the CB for far less time than the blink of any eye and when the CB is gone...it has no idea and cannot be influenced by the length of your follow through.
However, what a long follow through may do is to ensure that the cue is accelerating when it contacts the CB and THAT is what the CB reacts to i.e. cue speed at the instant of contact.
In the case of a very short follow through...say one inch just to make the point....if you stroke HARD but follow through only an inch, you MUST have decellerated your cue speed before CB contact...or have nearly superhuman timing and strength.
BUT many top players can achieve maximum cue speed with their "normal" follow through which varies but might well be about 3-4 inches measured from the contact side of the CB...for players who do NOT drop their elbows (longer for players who do).
Some players use a "punchy" sort of draw stroke. But IMHO, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a long follow through...as long as you understand that it is maximum cue stick speed...commensurate with accurate delivery of the tip to the lowest possible spot on the CB...that is what imparts maximum spin.
Personally, I have developed both a punchy draw stroke as will as a full follow through stroke (with some elbow drop God help me) because the punch stroke is often REQUIRED when the CB and OB are very close together to avoid double tapping the CB.
Finally, I pay SPECIAL attention to keeping my head/body ROCK steady on any power stroke including a power draw because tip-to-ball contact is SUPER CRITICAL in a power draw and if you move your head/body coming into the CB you will contact the exact lowest spot by accident only.
Regards,
Jim
Regards,
Jim
softshot said:
I didn't suggest that it was necessary. I was only commenting on the other poster's comments.
But, since you bring it up...
1. 3 rail shape going backwards.
2. Powering back into a cluster several diamonds back...the CB doesn't travel a full table but has to have the power to have done so.
3. The same stroke required to draw the CB 8-10 diamonds when it is say, 1 diamond from the OB would be required to draw the CB only say, 5 diamonds if the CB/OB are 5 diamonds apart. (those are just rough values to suggest the point). Again, the CB doesn't move more than a table but the STROKE required would be the same.
4. Check out the youtube of the Cory draw heard around the world! I don't know how many diamonds of draw would have occured had he hit the OB square...but it was A LOT and won the rack for him.
Just to name a few.
I agree with you that the occasions when you would need to move the CB more than 8 diamonds would come up fairly rarely...but the STROKE required to do that comes up more than occasionally.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
Correct
av84fun said:
Correct
av84fun said:
Here is where I see things differently (I am NOT a top pro nor claim to be this is just my experience shooting the way I was taught)
We seem to agree that a cue is either accelerating or decelerating. The cue builds up speed reaches a maximum for a fraction of a second and then starts slowing down.
I have kind of a chart in my head and a fairly consistent stroke. The chart tells me the the follow through needed to achieve the desired speed and or spin I need for the shot. I have set follow through targets on the line to the center of my ghostball (assuming a center ball hit). If I follow through short I get a base for tight position play in congested areas. If I follow through long I get much increased cue ball velocity and spin. learning that scale for my standard stroke gives me expanded cue ball options.
It works for me.
Softshot..."I have kind of a chart in my head and a fairly consistent stroke. The chart tells me the the follow through needed to achieve the desired speed and or spin I need for the shot. I have set follow through targets on the line to the center of my ghostball (assuming a center ball hit). If I follow through short I get a base for tight position play in congested areas. If I follow through long I get much increased cue ball velocity and spin. learning that scale for my standard stroke gives me expanded cue ball options.
It works for me.
__________________
Gotcha...and that's cool. WHATEVER works...like anyone who thinks that a perfect pendulum stroke is a must has never seen Bustamante play.
The only "issue" and it is not a "criticism" at all, is that the exaggerated follow through that you prefer due to basic body physics, requires a big time shoulder drop.
GOD FORBID that this thread gets into THAT well worn subject but there are some TOP teachers who preach pretty aggressively against a shoulder drop. (less aggressively in some cases if the drop occurs AFTER CB contact and not before).
But if a long follow through is WORKING for you then don't let anyone talk you out of it!
Thanks for your insights.
Jim
It works for me.
__________________
Gotcha...and that's cool. WHATEVER works...like anyone who thinks that a perfect pendulum stroke is a must has never seen Bustamante play.
The only "issue" and it is not a "criticism" at all, is that the exaggerated follow through that you prefer due to basic body physics, requires a big time shoulder drop.
GOD FORBID that this thread gets into THAT well worn subject but there are some TOP teachers who preach pretty aggressively against a shoulder drop. (less aggressively in some cases if the drop occurs AFTER CB contact and not before).
But if a long follow through is WORKING for you then don't let anyone talk you out of it!
Thanks for your insights.
Jim
av84fun said:
Wow your right I see that problem every day LOL
av84fun said:
I can see this having a use but lets be honest that cluster was already there. and if you chose to break it with a power draw off of another ball ... thats poor position play and planning on your part.
av84fun said:
If your shooting clear down the table with the intention of drawing all the way back to where you started. you missed position somewhere along the way.
and you might have a point it can bail you out of a tight spot but truth be told unless it was a missed safety by the other guy. you shouldn't be in that position to begin with.
thanks for the input guys. I'll try to further evaluate and observe both types of draw shots if there is really any significant change in terms of drawing power. but what I really noticed regarding slightly elevated cue to a perfect leveled cue is that in a leveled cue draw, the chances or tendency of a miscue is high compared to a slightly elevated draw shot. in a slighly elevated cue however, the tendency of unwanted english like a masse is higher compared to a perfectly horizontal cue draw, IMO.
before, I really feel that a slight elevation does affect or contribute to a power draw shot. as of the moment, because of this argument, I'm not sure now if there is really a significant effect. due to the fact that the CB is hit with the same speed, same contact point (tip radius to CB), same cue, tip type and size. regardless if the cue is elevated or not. can't wait to do this experiment a.s.a.p.
xcess, If I find out that there is no significant difference, then it's just a matter of preference, habit or familiarity on how to power draw.
before, I really feel that a slight elevation does affect or contribute to a power draw shot. as of the moment, because of this argument, I'm not sure now if there is really a significant effect. due to the fact that the CB is hit with the same speed, same contact point (tip radius to CB), same cue, tip type and size. regardless if the cue is elevated or not. can't wait to do this experiment a.s.a.p.
xcess, If I find out that there is no significant difference, then it's just a matter of preference, habit or familiarity on how to power draw.
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This is not true in any general sense. You'll miscue at exactly the same distance from center either way, so if you're miscueing more with a level cue then you're simply hitting farther offcenter that way. It's your setup and/or stroke that's at fault, not the level cue.
pj
chgo
the follow through is just a psychological thing really. we all know obviously that once the cue ball has been struck what the cue does afterwards has no effect. but playing your shot with a good follow through intended ensures you go through the ball nicely and you arent losing momentum as you strike the ball.
the best analogy i can think of is when a sprinter imagines the finish line to be a couple of metres further back than where the real one is. that way when he crosses the real one he is running at full speed and not slowing down, which he probably would do if he was just aiming for the real line.
hope that makes sense.
the best analogy i can think of is when a sprinter imagines the finish line to be a couple of metres further back than where the real one is. that way when he crosses the real one he is running at full speed and not slowing down, which he probably would do if he was just aiming for the real line.
hope that makes sense.
softshot said:
I'm a fan of the "Underground" and Mike Lowe. I think I know right where Hermies is located. I lived in North Mankato.
I have held a few Pool Schools in Mankato and will be in Burnsville of Aug 2008 for a wonderful School with Craig and his clients. I stay in Mankato for the entire month of Aug. to golf and socialize. Maybe we can get together and hit a few balls around? Do you golf also? Talk later....SPF=randyg
Patrick Johnson said:
this is just my observation Pat, not just me but most people I play with. definitely there is an error on the stroke, that's why I said tendency, tendency of error that is. observation on the ones with an elevated cue, less tendency of a miscue. again, not just me. or maybe something is just wrong with our style? Maybe. but those are still facts.
I agree with PJ. Maximum offset is close to the miscue limit. Good fundamentals will fix it. I don't suggest taking the shortcut and adding angle to fix a stroke issue.Hail Mary Shot said:this is just my observation Pat, not just me but most people I play with. definitely there is an error on the stroke, that's why I said tendency, tendency of error that is. observation on the ones with an elevated cue, less tendency of a miscue. again, not just me. or maybe something is just wrong with our style? Maybe. but those are still facts.
On another note, when I miscue at maximum draw it's usually because I brush the table with my stick...
I think you are misquoting Scott. He is saying Mike is not the normal player - rather he is the exception. AKA, if everyone could do it, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.BigJohn said:
-td
You're right about this. At "maximum" offset you probably won't get any squeezing effect, because by definition maximum offset is the most extreme point where you hit the CB without miscuing.td873 said:
However, if you are NOT hitting at maximum offset, such as a half or single tip offset, there can be a degree of "squeezing", of course depending on the cue elevation.
Just to back up, my whole explanation about increasing the contact time between cue and CB was to reply to the general statement that jacking up reduces RPMs. I don't think this is generally true, because of the masse/squeeze effect we have been describing. Of course, how much squeezing is a function of not only cue elevation, but tip offset. The amount of squeezing, and also the amount of time the cue remains in contact with the CB, increases as you increase your cue elevation AND decrease your tip offset.
But I agree that for "maximum" tip offset, there probably won't be a substantial difference in contact time between a level cue and a cue that is 15 degrees jacked up. However, if you hit the CB a half tip offset jacked up at 40 degrees, I would argue that not only would the contact time increase (with respect to a half tip offset with a level cue), but so would the RPMs because of the increase contact time.
I appreciate your well-thought out responses.
You probably mean this, but just to be clear I think brushing the table with your stick is an effect of hitting too low, and hitting too low is the cause of your miscue. In other words, brushing the table isn't the cause of the miscue.
pj
chgo
td873 said:To put draw on the cue you have to hit below center. In extreme examples, when shooting jacked up (or angled), your eyes may mislead you into thinking you are hitting the cue ball with the TOP part of the tip when you are actually hitting with the middle or bottom part. That is, when sighting, you think you are aiming correctly, but you end up hitting the cue ball with the middle or bottom part of the tip - which will result in less than favorable results. The trick is aiming a little "lower" than you think you should to get draw.
As a technical matter, when viewing the cue ball from a jacked up position, take the plane intersecting the center of the cue ball. Striking the cue ball above this plane should result in using the bottom part of the tip (because both the tip and the cue ball are curved). The closer to the center plane you get, the closer to using the middle of the tip. And in general play, draw is achieved by hitting with the top of the tip's curved surface below the plane.
Below is a crude MS Paint picture with a more typical scenario. As you can see, sighting down an elevated cue can cause you to perceive that you are hitting lower then you really are. In fact, you might think you are contacting the cue ball in the same place as a level cue (red line), but you might actually be one tip or more above the level cue contact point. As a general proposition, shooting level allows you to hit lower on the cue ball. Sorry for the MS Paint rendition
This is absolutely NOT true (must hit the ball below center to get draw).
Fast Larry was in my house, and I have it on film, where he puts the object ball in the jaws of a corner pocket and the cueball in the jaws of an opposite corner. Then he lines up the blue dot on the cue ball with an exact horizontal position pointing towards the other pocket. He hits down on the cueball, pockets the object ball, and draws the cueball back into the corner it started at. Then he shows you the chalk mark on the blue dot if you are a disbeliever.
I like the low and level Scott Lee taught me, but you will have more miscues with this. IMHO I think the low and level is harder to hit than the chop down draw. However, the chop down draw (slightly elevated butt) is less accurate.
Fast Larry also says that he has seen many many players miscue with the low and level.
Personally, I like the low and level better. I just keep my tip in good shape and I practice it all the time. I also practice the chop down draw. Like one poster said, you need to learn both.