Anybody have any insight into this shot?

[alstl]

You can hit this shot hard and keep the cue ball up at the same rail as the object ball. Does anybody have any detailed information about this shot: How close to the rail the object ball needs to be, the angle for which it will or won't work, what type of english is needed, etc?

CueTable Help

 

[jay helfert]

You can hit this shot hard and keep the cue ball up at the same rail as the object ball. Does anybody have any detailed information about this shot: How close to the rail the object ball needs to be, the angle for which it will or won't work, what type of english is needed, etc?

CueTable Help

Hit high center ball with some velocity. It's basically a force follow shot. You can definitely "kill" the cue ball close to the end rail this way. Just takes a little practice to get the hang of it. I'd say this shot can be successfully made with the object ball up to a foot off the end rail. It cannot be too severe a cut shot, perhaps up to about a 30% angle is okay. These are both just guesstimates on my part.

 

[StrokeofLuck]

What Jay said... put a good follow stroke on it and good cloth makes a difference too.

I remember when I learned how to do this about 25 years ago, we were playing a team barbox tourney and this shot came up, last ball before the 8. The table was rolling pretty true and I probably could have slow rolled it for shape but I was feeling pretty good, a little cocky and had been practicing this, so I pound whitey with top and didn't put a very good stroke on it and the cueball went the length of table twice and left me straight on the 8 :grin: just got there in a roundabout way.

Everyone was kind of looking at me like why'd he hit that so hard and I was like, "what?" :wink:

 

[greyghost]

if you watch beginer and intermediate players shoot you will find that this shot comes up often. Except they want the CB to go back up table, so they put Follow on it. Instead of the ball coming back up table it force follows right back to the rail it just hit. See it all the time, and they have no idea what just happened.

its a good shot to know,
Grey Ghost

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

...snip...

its a good shot to know,
Grey Ghost

Great question. Great example that separates lil ones from semi-lil-ones.

 

[3RAILKICK]

Pop it hard stun speed

with top right trying to get back down table to the end rail about even with the 9ball. It'll stop pretty good. Hit it real good and cb loops back and follows into the corner where 9ball was made. That will make your head hurt. One of those 'unintended consequences' shots that sometimes comes in handy.

I'm sure you've seen the Efren video clip where he uses this shot to get shape on the second of 3 balls lined up to the same corner all within about 2 1/2 diamonds of the corner. There he was creating a cb direction change for shape, not a full blown "top stop".

I don't know why the cb does this-I just know I have to find a different way to get back down table-a little cut/low running english if available.

Fun shot-sometimes useful.

3railkick

 

[mdavis228]

You can do a lot of useful things with this action. The rather full impact with the OB, & then the rail, kill most of the linear velocity of the CB, but most of it's spin velocity is retained. When the OB is very near a rail, really extreme CB action can occur & be used.

 

[greyghost]

with top right trying to get back down table to the end rail about even with the 9ball. It'll stop pretty good. Hit it real good and cb loops back and follows into the corner where 9ball was made. That will make your head hurt. One of those 'unintended consequences' shots that sometimes comes in handy.

I'm sure you've seen the Efren video clip where he uses this shot to get shape on the second of 3 balls lined up to the same corner all within about 2 1/2 diamonds of the corner. There he was creating a cb direction change for shape, not a full blown "top stop".

I don't know why the cb does this-I just know I have to find a different way to get back down table-a little cut/low running english if available.

Fun shot-sometimes useful.

3railkick

if you want to come back down table just hit the CB in the center and cut it a little thinner depending on the angle and loretta will come right back to you no english necessary.

Thats why I gave the example I did, you would think that follow would bring it back down table, with a firm stroke it only forces it back into the same rail.

Just like when your trying to kick safe. If the obj ball is a couple balls distance from the rail you are kicking then hit the CB with follow and it will stay right next to the rail after it hits the OB, while the OB will go downtable. In this I see the opposite, I see many novices want to stop the CB off the kick and they hit it with draw....which turns into rolling english once it hits the rail. When you got firm high follow coming off the rail the CB actually has backspin in relation to the table.

hope that helps.
Grey GHost

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The idea is to hit the CB hard so it's got lots of forward rotation when it hits the OB, but to hit the OB very full (the fuller the better) so the CB's forward motion is stopped by the OB but it retains forward overspin (it's "peeling out" on the cloth). The CB then follows to the rail under pure topspin power and rebounds slowly enough and with enough remaining overspin to stop it or even return it to the rail (sometimes, on slippery cloth, more than once).

The most common mistakes are (1) to hit the OB with too much cut angle, which doesn't kill enough of the CB's speed, or (2) to try the shot with the OB too far from the end rail, so the forward overspin becomes natural roll by the time the CB reaches the rail and no forward spin remains after rail contact (allowing the CB to rebound away).

pj
chgo

 

[Secaucus Fats]

That's a 'stop and squat' shot. You have to hit the object ball thick and use force follow to leave it burning rubber just off the rail. The first time most players encounter it is by accident when they try to use follow and speed to get the cue ball back down to the other end of the table. It's not a super hard thing to do but it is touchy.

 

[Fastolfe]

I don't know why the cb does this-I just know I have to find a different way to get back down table-a little cut/low running english if available.

It's really quite simple: when you impart top or bottom spin to a cueball, immediately after you hit the ball, the cueball "slides" on the cloth and rotates on itself in the direction you chose (top or bottom spin). Then progressively, that spin gets converted into a forward or backward force because of the friction between the cloth and the ball. When the spin "dies" completely (that is, when the ball finally rolls and spins naturally), the resulting direction of the ball is a combination of the initial forward movement, and the spin-friction-induced movement.

In the case of a simple force-follow of force-draw on a dead straight shot, it's easy to understand: when the cueball hits the object ball, its forward motion is transferred totally to the OB and stops dead. Then the spin-induced force re-accelerates the ball forward or backward. If the object ball is close, the cueball essentially slides and hits it, and most of the spin takes effect after the hit. If the OB is far, most of the spin has already been converted to forward motion, and merged with the cueball's original forward motion. The harder you hit of course, the farther you can slide, and the farther you can "bring the spin".

Easy to understand so far. Difficulties start happening because of spin inertia: if you spin a cueball iin a certain plane, the spin will stay in that plane. So if you hit an object ball 1/2 ball for example with tons of follow, after the hit, the cueball has changed direction 60 degrees. But whatever remains of the spin spins the cueball in the original spin plane, so the ball reaccelerates in the original direction of the shot. After the hit, the spin-induced movement merges gradually with the new direction of travel of the cueball as the spin disappears, that's why you see the cueball curve from 60 degrees off the original direction of travel right after the hit, to something between 60 and 0 degrees after the spin is gone.

Likewise, if you draw, after the hit, the ball still exits the collision 60 degrees from its original direction of travel, but the backspin grabs the cloth in the original direction of travel and gradually reaccelerate the cueball in that direction, so it curves back to you.

So what happens with the OP's shot? the shot is not quite straight in but close, and the OB is close to the rail. If you shoot hard with follow, the cueball slides most of its way to the OB and hits it. Then the cueball transfers most of its forward energy to the OB but not all. It then exits the collision at say, a 80 degrees angle, with slow speed (most of the original forward speed being gone into the OB). Then it gradually re-accelerates in the original direction of the shot. Trouble is, the rail is so close the cueball hits it before all the spin is converted to motion. So the ball rebounds backward, but remember, the spin still tries to move the ball in the original direction of travel. So in the end, when the spin is completely converted to motion, it's fought the backward motion enough to kill all motion altogether, and the ball stops dead near the rail.

Simple eh?