Anyone else with a 1 of a kind design?

[JimBo]

I agree with you 100% Jim. I feel the same way. I wouldn't sell my playing cue either. The other thing that is bothering me is all the dam CNC work. Where are all the real cuemakers today?
Don

The CNC thing is a real tough debate, maybe better done in it's own thread. But I have always hated rounded points and inlays (when sharp is required) but I think the future is CNC and I think most if not all of today's top guys are using it or will be in the next 5 years, so the thing becomes good -v- bad CNC. Most people who say they don't like CNC really don't understand what it is and how some of what they do like is done with CNC. I still like spliced sharp points, but I also understand the need for CNC work, I know what I like when I see it, how the look is achieved is another thing. But I guess I'd say the days of the Xacto knife are gone so get used to the CNC world, now more then ever designs will matter because everyone can buy the skill. This is also why I put a premium on hand work like Edwin Reyes and Bill Schick's engraving and scrimshaw work.

Jim

 

[Matt_24]

I think when people want to see true one of a kind cues you can look at some of TW's work or Edwin Reyes's work, stuff like that takes the hand of a master to create and most hacks couldn't even begin to understand what went into it let alone copy it.

I guess you didn't read the whole post Matt. To tell you the truth, you are the only person I know who questions Mr. Reyes's work. Tell us what you know that the rest of us don't. I ask this in all sincerity. Caus you is my buddy!!!!!
Purdman
The new Champions in Leesburg will be open soon . Feb. 15 I think. Hot Dang!!!!!

I don't know anything about Edwin Reyes. I was just generally asking why they call him "Master" Bandido instead of Edwin. I hear no one refer to "Master" Schick, or "Master" Searing. That was all. Not questioning anything I know nothing about.

 

[Matt_24]

The CNC thing is a real tough debate, maybe better done in it's own thread. But I have always hated rounded points and inlays (when sharp is required) but I think the future is CNC and I think most if not all of today's top guys are using it or will be in the next 5 years, so the thing becomes good -v- bad CNC. Most people who say they don't like CNC really don't understand what it is and how some of what they do like is done with CNC. I still like spliced sharp points, but I also understand the need for CNC work, I know what I like when I see it, how the look is achieved is another thing. But I guess I'd say the days of the Xacto knife are gone so get used to the CNC world, now more then ever designs will matter because everyone can buy the skill. This is also why I put a premium on hand work like Edwin Reyes and Bill Schick's engraving and scrimshaw work.

Jim

I love Tad Kohara's cues more than any other. Does he do everything by hand or is there some CNC in there? His designs just blow me away, plus I hear his cues hit really well. If I purchased one (regardless of price) I would play with it every chance I got.

Matt

 

[monski]

I couldn't agree more, TW is a man among boys when it comes to what we are talking about here. If the cue doesn't have a "name" then I don't feel it's the 1 of a kind thing we are talking about. Obviously some lines have a name, like Ginacue's Rasputan or Black's Athenian but these cues are mass produced and not 1 of a kinds. Before anyone freaks by mass I mean more then one as far as I know the plans for Atenian is a total of 25 or 30, still a small number (worldwide) when you think about it. But when you consider the number of 1 of a kind unique cues TW has made and how diverse they are you realize how underratted this man is.

Jim

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I was told that the Athenas stopped at 7. Doesn't matter though... your point is clear.

 

[monski]

I don't know anything about Edwin Reyes. I was just generally asking why they call him "Master" Bandido instead of Edwin. I hear no one refer to "Master" Schick, or "Master" Searing. That was all. Not questioning anything I know nothing about.

-------------------
From my standpoint, most of the filipinos who know (clients/friends, "fans") Edwin and openly express extreme appreciation of the cues call him "Master." Its a name that stuck with him. I call him "bossing" (a coined filipino term for "boss"). Outside of that I guess, the rest would call him Ed or Edwin. I don't know the details of how and when and the circumstances for the choice of the term but you must agree that the ERs you've seen are really up there.

 

[JimBo]

-----------

I was told that the Athenas stopped at 7. Doesn't matter though... your point is clear.

The original plan was to create 20 of them in clips of 5, with the price going up each batch. Of course with the price being so high I think it was close to impossible to sell all 20. This isn't something that hasn't been tried before, back in the early 90's Tim Scruggs tried the same thing with 2 collectors cues, I think they made it to 13 or so. What Tim also added was that idea hatched more custom orders. People want something special when they spend lots of money and 1 of 20 isn't so special at that price range IMO.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

the original plan was for 25 and while the seven made share the same basic design they are far from identical.

I'm sorry is this how you chose to ignore me???
LOL Hey Jeff you should try to get out of the house more, nevermind e-mails and phone calls, these guys are real nice, down to earth and fun to hang out with. I'm sure once you actually meet one in person you'll get hooked and start going to shows and shops. Shaking hands with the artist who created the item that you love and adore really puts a personal feel with the item and gives a little pride of ownership. I for one love to hear the story of how the cue came to be, unless of course I had a part in that aspect. But I guess e-mails are almost the same thing;-) Of course just my opinon as always.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

i didnt choose to ignore you. you mentioned that i could. you post in the forum why ignore you? i get out of the house just fine. there are other things in the world to do besides posting or billiards. thank you for the suggestion but i'll do as i please.

Jeff I like you, I would never want you to stop posting and go away, you are fun and a breath of fresh air. All I asked was that if you couldn't handle my posts then you should probably just ignore them, your obsession seems to run deep. Also feel free to sit in your house 24 hours a day for all I care, I don't know you and have never met you, I just thought I'd pass along a little advice. I was just trying to share with you, like you share your pics with me, you know the pics that you have no idea about how to take LOL. I know my advice to ignore me is real tough, that's a lot of attention you may miss out on, keep up the good work pal.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

there you go again with obsession. seems that when you dont want a particular poster to make any comments about things you say - you accuse them of being obsessive or stalking you. that way maybe you dont have to deal with them anymore.
you need to get over yourself jim! when would anyone feel the need to obsess over you? LOL

No Jeff I like when people post when it's about the thread, just don't care for posts that add nothing but try to bait me. As far as it being everyone?? Well, I'd say those who ask for pictures of me and ask for my phone number to be extreeeeem. but I guess we have different deffenitions. Keep up the good work, just get over me, that's not a lot to ask is it?? If you behave for a whil I may send you a signed 8x10.

Jim

 

[12squared]

One of a Kind Pictures

Hello All,

I'm enjoying this thread so I thought I'd share a few pictures of a little known cue maker in Northern California, Larry Mohr aka: "Uncle Larry" (sorry about the quality of the pics). I sat down with him about 4+ years ago and we discussed what I like in a cue. "Uncle Larry" came up with the final design and execution. UL has been a machinists for 35+ years and is meticulous about every detail...this shows in his cues.

It has a fully figured birdseye maple forarm with 4 very long even points which consist of 6 recut points in each (24 point cue). He used ebony, maple, bloodwood or paduk, walnut, light brown wood (don't know what), and ebony again for the points. Again, no veneers, all recuts. The buttsleeve is also very interesting. He created a full sleeve of the bloodwood/paduk and created alternating tapered points of maple and walnut; he then cut off the ends and used them for rings on either end of the ebony buttsleeve. Very interesting effect. All rings are UL's signature copper rings surrounded by black. Cream colored Irish linen w/brown specs. Flat faced joint w/ 3/8-10 pin screwing into wood with a stainless steel collar. Thank you "Uncle Larry" for doing such an awesome job designing and making this one-of-a-kind cue.

NOTE: I showed this cue to Ernie Martinez and he said he did a great job and he (Ernie) wouldn't begin making a cue w/6 recut points for less than $2500.

Hope you all enjoy it. Dave

 

[runscott]

Hello All,

I'm enjoying this thread so I thought I'd share a few pictures of a little known cue maker in Northern California, Larry Mohr aka: "Uncle Larry" (sorry about the quality of the pics). I sat down with him about 4+ years ago and we discussed what I like in a cue. "Uncle Larry" came up with the final design and execution. UL has been a machinists for 35+ years and is meticulous about every detail...this shows in his cues.

It has a fully figured birdseye maple forarm with 4 very long even points which consist of 6 recut points in each (24 point cue). He used ebony, maple, bloodwood or paduk, walnut, light brown wood (don't know what), and ebony again for the points. Again, no veneers, all recuts. The buttsleeve is also very interesting. He created a full sleeve of the bloodwood/paduk and created alternating tapered points of maple and walnut; he then cut off the ends and used them for rings on either end of the ebony buttsleeve. Very interesting effect. All rings are UL's signature copper rings surrounded by black. Cream colored Irish linen w/brown specs. Flat faced joint w/ 3/8-10 pin screwing into wood with a stainless steel collar. Thank you "Uncle Larry" for doing such an awesome job designing and making this one-of-a-kind cue.

NOTE: I showed this cue to Ernie Martinez and he said he did a great job and he (Ernie) wouldn't begin making a cue w/6 recut points for less than $2500.

Hope you all enjoy it. Dave

Beautiful cue. Do "recut" and "milled" mean the same thing? Also, is it that much more difficult to do this, as opposed to the traditional veneers? Just asking because I've had opportunities to pick up nice "milled" point cues, but there was a premium attached.

 

[12squared]

Beautiful cue. Do "recut" and "milled" mean the same thing? Also, is it that much more difficult to do this, as opposed to the traditional veneers? Just asking because I've had opportunities to pick up nice "milled" point cues, but there was a premium attached.

Thank you for your compliment. Yes, I believe in this case, the terms "milled" and "recut" points refer to the same thing. On its own, milled is the way the point is installed in the cue (as opposed to spliced), recut refers to milling more than one point into another point. And yes, it is much more difficult to make than veneers. Veneers are attached (glued) to one point prior to installation in the cue, whatever the means of installation (could be spliced or milled). After the veneers are attached, it is considered one point. Also, many of the veneers used are not made of hard wood, they are usually died balsa or other light, easy to work with, lightweight woods. You will also see a seam line from the top of the main point to the top of the veneers. The quality of this seam depends on the cuemaker (Burton Spain, Szamboti are recognized as 2 of the best from the past, but there are many of todays cuemakers that are awesome). Recut points have no seam.

Recut points means that more than one point is recut (milled) into another point. This could be 2, 3, 4, 5 or in this case 6 recut points making up each point. Much more work is involved plus the recuts typically are made of different types of hard wood. The premium you pay is because of the cost of the woods (sometimes exotic) used and the additional time needed to mill each point separately. In the case of this Uncle Larry cue, it truly is a 24-point cue even though it appears to be a 4 pointer.

Hope this helps.

Dave

 

[12squared]

hadnt heard the phrase "fully figured birdseye" but i think it applies to this cue! very nice!

thanks. I visited your website and I must say you really have a nice collection.

 

[jmwcues]

Jimbo, I also like TW's cues. My only problem with him was when he said,
" anyone who buys one of my cues to play with is buying it for the wrong reason ". Doesn't make much sense to me. Could you elaborate on this for me?
Purdman

Purdman,

I asked him that very question in person at last year's collector's show. He informed me that he did not say that and he was not happy about being misquoted. He does do some incredible stuff!

Jim W.

 

[jmwcues]

Jeff,

Originality of design is only one aspect of a piece of art. The execution of design is an additional consideration. How to make a sculpture from a photograph or painting is not an easy task. There are only so many shapes that can be effectively used in a cue's design and the way they are used together can make a cue tasteful and pleasing to the eye or completely hideous to the viewer. Some cuemakers have a special talent when it comes to figuring that out. However they can't always execute what is inside their mind as well as some others who may not posess the artistic ability. When you have both abilities in one cuemaker...well, that's what makes them great in my opinion. I have seen beautiful intricate designs, but if you look closely the workmanship is substandard. I have seen simple for point cues, not really original, but done flawlessly. Which is better? If you get the whole package in one cue, then you got somethin'!

Jim

 

[merylane]

hey big jim!
being your up to 16 posts now i'm going to have to strip you of your "lurker" status.
i think thomas wayne does some nice stuff as well. prices it very nicely too!
but like in art (yes bruin - comparing to art again) the more unconventional the work the smaller the audience. and a lot of people talk about his originality. but most of what i have seen (have not seen all his cues) is more just transferring established designs or forms from another source to cues. even his cue at west palm, the design was taken from a tie. maybe he designed the tie? i dont know. if not - i would hardly call that original design.
as far as originality of design i have seen a lot more from richard black than thomas wayne. i think wayne is more hype than substance

wow someone with his own mind...... cha-ching.....

 

[jmwcues]

very diplomatic answer "big jim"! 17 posts and you have now definitely been stripped of your lurker status! this opens you up to possible flame attacks
personally, i would always take flawless work over substandard intricate design. i agree the combination would be the best of both worlds but i would not necessarily need intricate work, but would like original work.
you didnt really say but kind of implied that wayne did flawless work. and by flawless i know you don't mean perfect but of a very high standard. am i correct in that assumption?

jeff

Intricacy, I agree, does not necessarily mean attractive. Some of JMcW's stuff is real nice, well executed and not overly intricate and original. Others may jam a bunch of inlays in a cue and charge a premium because of it. The cue may have zero design continuity and flow, but it sells anyway for some unknown reason.

I've only held three TW's and they were very well done.

 

[bruin70]

Thank you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,d is the way the point is installed in the cue (as opposed to spliced), recut refers to milling more than one point into another point. And yes, it is much more difficult to make than veneers.
Dave

i disagree heartlly, dave,,,because there are CLEARLY different degrees of veneered points. there are thos who make 'em great, and there are those who suck. however, i have never seen bad recut points. today,,,,everyone has the machinery to recut points, so it';s no big deal. these machinists can work with tolerances that are 1/1000's mm. recutting points is baby work to them.

but have them do clean veneers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[bruin70]

the criteria to judge a cue changes from one cuemaker to another,,,one artist to another. this is because the standard by which one artist bases his work is different from another's, and must be judged so.

if a director does gritty noir realism, he cannot be judged by the same criteria that one would judge spielberg's fantasy films. and if spielberg injects some unwarranted noir into, say,,,ET the extraterrestrial, well then we can all say he overdosed on stupidity(which can also be called lack of taste)

similiarly, if a cuemaker bases his work on pinpoint minutea and he interjects something out of character, then his cue falls short of a well planned ideal. i would never judge schraeger with the same criteria i use to judge mcworter or gutierrez.

so the flow of a cue, while using both design and craft, can fail if both aspects don't converge fluidly.

there is also something to be said for "clean handcrafted", wherein we tend to forgive for the sake of the pure art of "handwork".

on a broad base, i can say this,,,that with access to today's machinery, the bar has been raised with regards to sharp detail. and therefore i will discount any half assed cue made with such machinery as second rate. it's not enough to be good, if you want to compete.

fortunately for all,, everyone has different tastes. good cuemakers have different points of view. i like richard black. he takes chances and culls his ideas from many sources. clearly he has a few art books at home. ernie is the perfect cuemaker, imo. conservative, yet creative,,,,and SHARP.

 

[12squared]

Point Taken

i disagree heartlly, dave,,,because there are CLEARLY different degrees of veneered points. there are thos who make 'em great, and there are those who suck. however, i have never seen bad recut points. today,,,,everyone has the machinery to recut points, so it';s no big deal. these machinists can work with tolerances that are 1/1000's mm. recutting points is baby work to them.

but have them do clean veneers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Your point is well taken and I agree with your point of view. I am a big fan of traditional points and the aquired skill it takes to do them well. In fact, I was lucky enough to spend a little time with Ernie Martinez, whose point work is amoung the best of the modern cue makers and is in high demand by collectors. He's the one that said he wouldn't attempt to recreate the 6-recuts in each point for less than $2500 because of the extra time although his standard 4 pointer w/4 veneers would sell for about $1500. He said it was as if he would be making a cue with 24 separate points. This was the basis of my answer.

Bruin, I was hoping in my post to not diminish the skill it takes to create great veneered points, only to answer the AZer who wanted clarification between the terms milled and recut. He also asked about why the cue maker was asking a premium for the recut points. Its like quantifying the difference between vaneered points that are milled vs. spliced. They can both look awesome (or bad) but my personal preference is spliced. But you have to admit that recut points take more time and they do use more expensive woods than vaneered points.

Thank you for helping me clarify what was meant to be said.

Dave