Anyone have any information on Babe Cranfield’s 768

[middleofnowhere]

Talk about people doing things in practice. Years ago a friend of mine a pro bowler was matching up with Earl Anthony. We put up $5000 for a three game set with my friend getting 30 pins a game. I think thats what you call it, Im not a bowler. Anthony arrives the night before and is practicing. We are watching and he throws like 25 strikes in a row, maybe more. It was ridiculous he was a machine.

I went home that night figuring my money is gone. The next night though when they played Anthony was great and did win, but it was a nail biter. Turns out with the thirty pins was actually a fair game. Practice and the real thing are different in probably every sport.

 

[wrldpro]

I don't have a citation but my recollection is that he said it in a print interview.

There is also the point that he did quit on at least one 600+ ball run, the one witnessed by Ursitti.

Lou Figueroa

Mosconi ran a 609 and quit without missing and went to dinner and 586 at 66 years old and also quit without missing in which Charlie Ursetti racked the balls for both of these runs. Damn if Mosconi could have ate dinner while playing he might have run 900. Mosconi told me he thought he may have run around 600 or more 4-5 times but didn't have someone keeping the total racks so he lost count.

 

[eg9327]

I played golf for 25 years. In that time I had one hole in one. Unfortunately I was playing alone so it was never recordable. It made me happy and that is all that counts. Point is, a sporting record needs to be properly recordable or it is just funsies.

 

[Saabradio]

A A little off-topic about six years ago and the elderly lady walked into Hippos’s pool room and she was related to babe And went up to Jack, I forgot jacks last name but He always told stories about Bigfoot, he passed away. But she gave him the balls and box with his name on it , that babe play with in Syracuse. Three days later I ask jack how much he wanted , forgot now but it was about 50-80 . Left them over a friends house . I was going to give them to her old Pool Hal, in Syracuse but the closed a couple of years later. Young Vic who ran hippos should remember

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Interesting, I know that Mosconi carried his own set of balls in a carrying case, most likely all the guys did when they were doing exhibition. I know Cranfield’s was particular about the balls he played with, he said as much in one of his books.

 

[rossaroni]

Talk about people doing things in practice. Years ago a friend of mine a pro bowler was matching up with Earl Anthony. We put up $5000 for a three game set with my friend getting 30 pins a game. I think thats what you call it, Im not a bowler. Anthony arrives the night before and is practicing. We are watching and he throws like 25 strikes in a row, maybe more. It was ridiculous he was a machine.

I went home that night figuring my money is gone. The next night though when they played Anthony was great and did win, but it was a nail biter. Turns out with the thirty pins was actually a fair game. Practice and the real thing are different in probably every sport.

Funny, cause they are probably having this same conversation on the bowling forums. “So and so has the record for 14 strikes a row in tournament play.” “Yeah, but the most strikes in a row was when Earl Anthony threw 25 in a row practicing.”

 

[spartan]

I wonder what some people here think is more impressive - the 626 or Mizerak's near stranglehold on the 14.1 US Open in the 70s against guys that were all capable of putting you away if they got an open shot. Hope this makes sense.

Of cos Mizerak titles. Other sports regard titles/ medals higher than freakish endurance records especially those consecutive records like undefeated winning streak run in tennis, basketball or consecutive matches won in club soccer. Doesn't matter how many consecutive games you can win if you cannot win titles.

 

[JusticeNJ]

Of cos Mizerak titles. Other sports regard titles/ medals higher than freakish endurance records especially those consecutive records like undefeated winning streak run in tennis, basketball or consecutive matches won in club soccer. Doesn't matter how many consecutive games you can win if you cannot win titles.

Agreed. Again, not to diminish John's run at all. In my opinion, 4-peating the US Open against the extremely tough fields back then is practically unheard of IMO.

 

[garczar]

I played golf for 25 years. In that time I had one hole in one. Unfortunately I was playing alone so it was never recordable. It made me happy and that is all that counts. Point is, a sporting record needs to be properly recordable or it is just funsies.

One of the greatest golf feats imo was done by Mac O'Grady. He once played in a pro-am and shot 68 right-handed followed by a 69 LEFT-HANDED!! Now THAT is insane.

 

[sjm]

Agreed. Again, not to diminish John's run at all. In my opinion, 4-peating the US Open against the extremely tough fields back then is practically unheard of IMO.

So is one-peating. The US Open 14.1 fields while Mizerak was dominating tended to include over a dozen future hall of famers. Winning it was harder than making a practice run of any length. Four-peating, that is just plain ridiculous.

Personally, I consider John Schmidt's US Open 9-ball title won in 2006 to be a far greater achievement than his 626 ball run. Topping a large, super-elite field, is a very difficult task indeed, one that is primarily the domain of the true giants of the game.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

I agree with sjm winning the US Open is a huge thing. But records will always be what people want to cling to, Chamberlain’s 100 point game in the NBA, Ruth‘s 714 until it was broken by Hank Aaron (people began saying it was because of the short left field fence in Atlanta) then it being broken by Bonds that carried the steroid stigma so many didn’t consider that official either. Dimaggio’s 56 game hitting streak (which is the one that really may not ever be broken but who know Rose came close in the early 70’s with 44) and then there’s John’s recognized 626 surpassing Willie’s 526. There have most likely been higher runs but that‘ been talked to death at this point.

People like numbers, and controversy remains eternal.

 

[sjm]

I agree with sjm winning the US Open is a huge thing. But records will always be what people want to cling to, Chamberlain’s 100 point game in the NBA, Ruth‘s 714 until it was broken by Hank Aaron (people began saying it was because of the short left field fence in Atlanta) then it being broken by Bonds that carried the steroid stigma so many didn’t consider that official either. Dimaggio’s 56 game hitting streak (which is the one that really may not ever be broken but who know Rose came close in the early 70’s with 44) and then there’s John’s recognized 626 surpassing Willie’s 526. There have most likely been higher runs but that‘ been talked to death at this point.

People like numbers, and controversy remains eternal.

Chamberlain, Ruth, Aaron, Bonds, Dimaggio set their records in competition. Someone may well have hit more home runs than Aaron in batting practice, but that's practice, as was John's record. The high run record belongs to Darren Appleton, who ran 200 and out in competition.

Suggesting that people are particularly interested in records achieved in practice in sports is nonsense. Ted St Martin made over 2700 consecutive foul shots in basketball, and yet his name is virtually unknown. If memory serves, the record for consecutive spot shots made is over 2,000. Guess who did it --- I have no idea, because as it occurred in practice, it doesn't matter.

People like numbers in sporting competition. In practice, they're not very interested, and frankly, why would they be?

 

[JusticeNJ]

Chamberlain, Ruth, Aaron, Bonds, Dimaggio set their records in competition. Someone may well have hit more home runs than Aaron in batting practice, but that's practice, as was John's record. The high run record belongs to Darren Appleton, who ran 200 and out in competition.

Suggesting that people are particularly interested in records achieved in practice in sports is nonsense. Ted St Martin made over 2700 consecutive foul shots in basketball, and yet his name is virtually unknown. If memory serves, the record for consecutive spot shots made is over 2,000. Guess who did it --- I have no idea, because as it occurred in practice, it doesn't matter.

People like numbers in sporting competition. In practice, they're not very interested, and frankly, why would they be?

I think the Ted St Martin number is actually somewhere around 5000, which further proves your point.

As to the other post, and to further agree with you, I only know of Efren winning the Derby 1pocket division 4 times. Other than that, I don't think anyone has 4-peated a major open tournament ever in the modern pool era, and its hard to imagine it happening again. (I know Mosconi won some world title like 10 times in the 30s-40s - I think that's apples to oranges.) Possible sure, but very unlikely.

I believe the 626 - - if that is the record high run in practice - - can be beaten again. Will it? I don't know. I think pool is not much different than other sports in this regard, as Stu has alluded to. The four minute mile, once thought sacred, was beaten in the 1950s and has since been beaten about 1500 times since then. So how fast can Usain Bolt, the fastest man alive, run a mile? He's reportedly never run a mile. Why would he? It's not what he competes at.

How many balls could Rempe, Miz, Sigel, West, etc. have run in their prime? How many can Filler, Hohmann, or Feijen run today? Enough to win. Just like Bolt just had to run faster than the guy behind him over the distance he was competing at. It would be ludicrous if he just kept going for a mile afterward.

Unfortunately, with 14.1 relegated to nothing more than a practice game except for one or two events a year, or even fewer than that even without COVID, the concept of excellent play will probably be focused on high runs because tournament wins are becoming harder and harder to come by in the game.

It's a shame, because 14.1 can provide some great drama if it's a close match. If two players are playing well and trading 40-50 ball runs, it's very exciting watching the last few racks knowing whoever is as the table can end it, while the guy in the chair can do the exact same thing. It's like an extended hill-hill match. Separately, there's always the chance of a player starting with a big run, only to lose the match if the other player runs out, or has better table management skills. Everyone likes to watch the 100+ ball runs, but I always thought 14.1 really provides excitement if it's contested, more so than the rotation games. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but those contested games are much more exciting than a guy running balls for half a day. 14.1 competition on the other hand, can be extremely entertaining.

 

[lfigueroa]

Chamberlain, Ruth, Aaron, Bonds, Dimaggio set their records in competition. Someone may well have hit more home runs than Aaron in batting practice, but that's practice, as was John's record. The high run record belongs to Darren Appleton, who ran 200 and out in competition.

Suggesting that people are particularly interested in records achieved in practice in sports is nonsense. Ted St Martin made over 2700 consecutive foul shots in basketball, and yet his name is virtually unknown. If memory serves, the record for consecutive spot shots made is over 2,000. Guess who did it --- I have no idea, because as it occurred in practice, it doesn't matter.

People like numbers in sporting competition. In practice, they're not very interested, and frankly, why would they be?

So, Stu, where does something like the DCC 14.1 Challenge fall in your book?

You had all these guys "competing" for the high run prizes (and the final tournament) but basically shooting solo without an opponent

Lou Figueroa

 

[sjm]

So, Stu, where does something like the DCC 14.1 Challenge fall in your book?

You had all these guys "competing" for the high run prizes (and the final tournament) but basically shooting solo without an opponent

Lou Figueroa

The qualifying rounds were witnessed exhibitions and any run would have to be recognized as eligible for the exhibition record. The knockout rounds were witnessed competitive runs, and would have to be recognized as such.

 

[lfigueroa]

The qualifying rounds were witnessed exhibitions and any run would have to be recognized as eligible for the exhibition record. The knockout rounds were witnessed competitive runs, and would have to be recognized as such.

Fair enough.

But I feel the qualifying rounds were not exhibitions. They were competitions, where the players were clearly competing against each other -- albeit in a non-traditional format -- for prize money. Perhaps it was a new format but it was still competition.

Lou Figueroa

 

[sjm]

Fair enough.

But I feel the qualifying rounds were not exhibitions. They were competitions, where the players were clearly competing against each other -- albeit in a non-traditional format -- for prize money. Perhaps it was a new format but it was still competition.

Lou Figueroa

Agreed, Lou. It's a bit of gray area, but we see this differently. If a miss doesn't require you to spend some time in the chair and then find the activation energy to excel, the competitive dynamic that pertains to match play is absent. Miss and try again right away is not competition --- you only get to do that in practice.

 

[lfigueroa]

Agreed, Lou. It's a bit of gray area, but we see this differently. If a miss doesn't require you to spend some time in the chair and then find the activation energy to excel, the competitive dynamic that pertains to match play is absent. Miss and try again right away is not competition --- you only get to do that in practice.

Stu, you can’t draw a direct comparison between a high run competition, such as what was held at the DCC, to traditional match play. They’re different beasts.

And I would argue that finding the motivation to shake off a miss after a lengthy run goes awry, and go again, while not the same as what’s needed in match play, is also tough and something to be considered. There is the internal pressure of the run, the knowledge that you have a limited number of attempts, prize money to be won or lost, and the fact that other players will be attempting to surpass whatever number you put up.

A high run competition is a non-traditional hybrid form. And in the case of the DCC had spectators and the runs were all recorded. I also don’t think there can be a direct comparison to a player practicing or a situation where a player is endlessly shooting solo. That would be something else.

Lou Figueroa

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Chamberlain, Ruth, Aaron, Bonds, Dimaggio set their records in competition. Someone may well have hit more home runs than Aaron in batting practice, but that's practice, as was John's record. The high run record belongs to Darren Appleton, who ran 200 and out in competition.

Suggesting that people are particularly interested in records achieved in practice in sports is nonsense. Ted St Martin made over 2700 consecutive foul shots in basketball, and yet his name is virtually unknown. If memory serves, the record for consecutive spot shots made is over 2,000. Guess who did it --- I have no idea, because as it occurred in practice, it doesn't matter.

People like numbers in sporting competition. In practice, they're not very interested, and frankly, why would they be?

The sports figures in my above post all set these records IN competition so no disagreement there.

However I submit that if anybody truly believes that someone actually made 2000 spots shots without missing needs to stop believing in the Yeti, changes druggists and seriously consider spending less time in the garden without their sunhat!

 

[sjm]

Stu, you can’t draw a direct comparison between a high run competition, such as what was held at the DCC, to traditional match play. They’re different beasts.

And I would argue that finding the motivation to shake off a miss after a lengthy run goes awry, and go again, while not the same as what’s needed in match play, is also tough and something to be considered. There is the internal pressure of the run, the knowledge that you have a limited number of attempts, prize money to be won or lost, and the fact that other players will be attempting to surpass whatever number you put up.

A high run competition is a non-traditional hybrid form. And in the case of the DCC had spectators and the runs were all recorded. I also don’t think there can be a direct comparison to a player practicing or a situation where a player is endlessly shooting solo. That would be something else.

Lou Figueroa

Points are well taken, Lou. I wish the DCC 14.1 Challenge were still around. It was great!