Anyone have any information on Babe Cranfield’s 768

[sjm]

I'm surprised people care about the exhibition vs practice thing...

If you believe the person and/or they can prove that they pocketed the number of balls without foul then it's run that should be considered a record, of whatever regard.

Agreed 100%. An exhibition run still seems like a practice run to me. I've always wondered why either is recognized. Personally, I consider Appleton's 200 against Bustamante to be the world record.

There's a guy named Ted St Martin who made 2,750 consecutive free throws in basketball. The NBA record is 97. Ask any serious basketball fan who the best ever free throw shooter is and they'll name guys like Steph Curry and Ray Allen, but practically no-one would name Ted St Martin.

What one accomplishes in practice is a very different matter than what one accomplishes in competition.

 

[jay helfert]

I heard about this run decades ago and asked Irving Crane, of upstate New York as was Babe, about it close to 40 years ago. Irving said he didn't know of it when it happened, but commented that Babe probably had more runs of 300+ than any player that ever lived (up to that point) and that he found the claim of 768 to be highly credible. He also noted that Babe was a man of the highest integrity who should be taken at his word.

Babe is also believed to have run over 700 twice (I believe the other run he claimed was 709). Babe was the John Schmidt of his day, far more focused on high runs than anything else, and surprisingly unsuccessful in top competition for someone who shone so brightly on the practice table.

I have always felt that Babe's runs, which occurred in practice, should not be recognized as records, but instead as the highest ever runs in practice.

There is little to no documentation of many of the highest ever runs of the old masters, as play was almost never recorded or televised, but can we discard all the high run claims of that era because they aren't documented to the extent we'd have a right to expect today?

That would move Schmidt's 626 back to number two or three all time high runs. He'll have to go back to shooting high runs all day long until he runs an 800!

 

[lfigueroa]

Agreed 100%. An exhibition run still seems like a practice run to me. I've always wondered why either is recognized. Personally, I consider Appleton's 200 against Bustamante to be the world record.

There's a guy named Ted St Martin who made 2,750 consecutive free throws in basketball. The NBA record is 97. Ask any serious basketball fan who the best ever free throw shooter is and they'll name guys like Steph Curry and Ray Allen, but practically no-one would named Ted St Martin.

What one accomplishes in practice is a very different matter than what one accomplishes in competition.

Perhaps the thing is that if it's an exhibition run, the general expectation is that it's a one off, like Mosconi's run.

Maybe that concept gets tied into an exhibition being announced/advertised and there being spectators there. Whereas, if it's a practice run, you can pretty much just start over (and over) and you might be by your lonesome.

But nowadays, I think recording and streaming runs blurs the line between the two. So if you're by your lonesome but the attempts are being recorded and perhaps streamed, the practice becomes an exhibition.

Lou Figueroa
or sumthin' like that

 

[The_JV]

Agreed 100%. An exhibition run still seems like a practice run to me. I've always wondered why either is recognized. Personally, I consider Appleton's 200 against Bustamante to be the world record.

There's a guy named Ted St Martin who made 2,750 consecutive free throws in basketball. The NBA record is 97. Ask any serious basketball fan who the best ever free throw shooter is and they'll name guys like Steph Curry and Ray Allen, but practically no-one would named Ted St Martin.

What one accomplishes in practice is a very different matter than what one accomplishes in competition.

Perhaps the thing is that if it's an exhibition run, the general expectation is that it's a one off, like Mosconi's run.

Maybe that concept gets tied into an exhibition being announced/advertised and there being spectators there. Whereas, if it's a practice run, you can pretty much just start over (and over) and you might be by your lonesome.

But nowadays, I think recording and streaming runs blurs the line between the two. So if you're by your lonesome but the attempts are being recorded and perhaps streamed, the practice becomes an exhibition.

Lou Figueroa
or sumthin' like that

I definitely see a difference between practice/exhibition vs 'in competition'. However once your 'out' in a match anything over and above rolls back to exhibition at best.

Ted St. Martin for example didn't do those 2,700+ free throws under NBA game pressure / fatigue and opposing fans doing everything they can to distract him. You could boil it right down to the difference between shooting the game winning free throw with no time on the clock, to tossing another after just winning the game because you made the first. Mountains of difference between the two situations.

That said, spectators definitely change the pressure situation even though a high run attempt isn't in competition.

These days, I can either click the 'record' button or mouse down a .25" and select the 'stream' option instead. I rather not bore people with the piles of garbage between my decent runs...lol.

 

[8intheside]

I'm surprised people care about the exhibition vs practice thing...

If you believe the person and/or they can prove that they pocketed the number of balls without foul then it's run that should be considered a record, of whatever regard.

I agree with you! Who cares if it’s an exhibition or some random person in their basement? If someone runs that many balls, imo it definitely counts!

 

[middleofnowhere]

It's kind of a catch 22 in tournament play I'm in a lot of tournaments guy runs 120 and out 135 and out and that's it they start the next match. I was at one match Jimmy rempey runs 147 and out and I think he wanted to keep running balls and a referee basically rake the balls.

 

[JusticeNJ]

It's kind of a catch 22 in tournament play I'm in a lot of tournaments guy runs 120 and out 135 and out and that's it they start the next match. I was at one match Jimmy rempey runs 147 and out and I think he wanted to keep running balls and a referee basically rake the balls.

Isn't that what happened to Appleton? He ran 200 and out, then Busty raked the balls if my memory is correct.

I wonder if the older generation just didn't think of high runs as being all that important versus 14.1 titles. Sort of like 9 or 10 ball. If I hear someone put up a big package it's impressive sure, but it doesn't get talked about with the reverence of a 14.1 high run, or SVBs three-peat US Open, 5 titles, or Earl's 5 titles, for example.

I wonder what some people here think is more impressive - the 626 or Mizerak's near stranglehold on the 14.1 US Open in the 70s against guys that were all capable of putting you away if they got an open shot. Hope this makes sense.

Not to diminish the run. It's incredibly impressive. I just wonder what the run would be if we locked Steve Mizerak (or Sigel, Rempe, etc.) in a pool room for a year from 1973-1974 and said "Beat the 526." It just wasn't how they thought about 14.1 accomplishments. He'd rather steamroll the US Open. Or bet on ponies, go fishing, etc. when he wasn't competing.

 

[garczar]

IMO only tournament runs mean anything. Exhibitions are just funsy pool. Un-witnessed ones mean even less.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Isn't that what happened to Appleton? He ran 200 and out, then Busty raked the balls if my memory is correct.

I wonder if the older generation just didn't think of high runs as being all that important versus 14.1 titles. Sort of like 9 or 10 ball. If I hear someone put up a big package it's impressive sure, but it doesn't get talked about with the reverence of a 14.1 high run, or SVBs three-peat US Open, 5 titles, or Earl's 5 titles, for example.

I wonder what some people here think is more impressive - the 626 or Mizerak's near stranglehold on the 14.1 US Open in the 70s against guys that were all capable of putting you away if they got an open shot. Hope this makes sense.

Not to diminish the run. It's incredibly impressive. I just wonder what the run would be if we locked Steve Mizerak (or Sigel, Rempe, etc.) in a pool room for a year from 1973-1974 and said "Beat the 526." It just wasn't how they thought about 14.1 accomplishments. He'd rather steamroll the US Open. Or bet on ponies, go fishing, etc. when he wasn't competing.

I think part of the lack of interest in 9/10 ball high runs is how much luck plays a part in a high run. I would argue more packages are spoiled by not having a shot at the one than an actual mistake. If a player is on a 5 pack, they aren't likely thinking a 10 pack is possible whereas in 14.1, if a player is on a 100 ball run, they would certainly think a 200 ball run is possible because the run is far more in their control. That's my guess anyway.

But I think in general you are right, when 14.1 was the primary competitive game the players focus was probably on being a better competitor and not on high runs. Although Johnny Archer's prime came after the 14.1 era, I think it was him who said that he would stop at 200 balls in practice because that was the length of the longest straight pool match. Nowadays, straight pool has become more of a practice game than anything in recent years, which imo, has increased the emphasis on high runs. With the absence of competition, consistency is deemphasized in place of momentary excellence.

 

[kling&allen]

Mosconi famously didn't like to play pool more than required to satisfy his sponsors, and his exhibition schedule was grueling, so I suspect he happily ended his runs as soon as possible. Most of the public wanted to see his trick shots anyway. Why he stayed late that night for his big run I don't know. I can't remember if he addressed it in Willie's Game.

Greenleaf also had a demanding exhibition schedule that would have limited his ability to grind for high runs. But as early as 1919 the press (and Brunswick) was promoting the high runs of top players. I also wonder if the poor equipment (uneven slate, clay balls, ratty cloth) made luck more of a factor in the high runs of the old greats.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Isn't that what happened to Appleton? He ran 200 and out, then Busty raked the balls if my memory is correct.

I wonder if the older generation just didn't think of high runs as being all that important versus 14.1 titles. Sort of like 9 or 10 ball. If I hear someone put up a big package it's impressive sure, but it doesn't get talked about with the reverence of a 14.1 high run, or SVBs three-peat US Open, 5 titles, or Earl's 5 titles, for example.

I wonder what some people here think is more impressive - the 626 or Mizerak's near stranglehold on the 14.1 US Open in the 70s against guys that were all capable of putting you away if they got an open shot. Hope this makes sense.

Not to diminish the run. It's incredibly impressive. I just wonder what the run would be if we locked Steve Mizerak (or Sigel, Rempe, etc.) in a pool room for a year from 1973-1974 and said "Beat the 526." It just wasn't how they thought about 14.1 accomplishments. He'd rather steamroll the US Open. Or bet on ponies, go fishing, etc. when he wasn't competing.

The problem with practice runs are you will do anything to keep it going. If you would not do it in a game then the run should be over.

For example, you miss the rack on the break shot then try to bank the corner ball. It you make it any balls after that are just BS.

 

[mikemosconi]

Isn't that what happened to Appleton? He ran 200 and out, then Busty raked the balls if my memory is correct.

I wonder if the older generation just didn't think of high runs as being all that important versus 14.1 titles. Sort of like 9 or 10 ball. If I hear someone put up a big package it's impressive sure, but it doesn't get talked about with the reverence of a 14.1 high run, or SVBs three-peat US Open, 5 titles, or Earl's 5 titles, for example.

I wonder what some people here think is more impressive - the 626 or Mizerak's near stranglehold on the 14.1 US Open in the 70s against guys that were all capable of putting you away if they got an open shot. Hope this makes sense.

Not to diminish the run. It's incredibly impressive. I just wonder what the run would be if we locked Steve Mizerak (or Sigel, Rempe, etc.) in a pool room for a year from 1973-1974 and said "Beat the 526." It just wasn't how they thought about 14.1 accomplishments. He'd rather steamroll the US Open. Or bet on ponies, go fishing, etc. when he wasn't competing.

This is something that I have been saying all along since JS began his attempts at a high run "record" Almost everybody involved with pool in the 60s knew about Mike Eufemia's 600 + run, almost everybody also knew about Cranfield's super high practice runs, and Harold Worst was another in that era who was known to run 200 nitely and then just put his cue down for the night.

Yet, knowing all of this, when the next generation of Martin, Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Varner etc. came along- they were into competition, making a living at pool, not chasing some number. Mosconi's 526 was always mentioned because it had some attestation behind it - so folks looked upon it as some sort of official "record" I would agree that the only real record that matters is the 200 balls run in a competitive 14.1 event - if that is the most balls ever run in a competitive 14.1 event, then I give Mr. Appleton the crown to wear until someone can do the same or better.

 

[The_JV]

IMO only tournament runs mean anything. Exhibitions are just funsy pool. Un-witnessed ones mean even less.

That said, I wonder what the maximum race has ever been in a professional 14.1 tournament, and how many players are currently tied for the World Record...?

 

[The_JV]

I would agree that the only real record that matters is the 200 balls run in a competitive 14.1 event - if that is the most balls ever run in a competitive 14.1 event, then I give Mr. Appleton the crown to wear until someone can do the same or better.

So someone needs to sponsor their own 14.1 event with the race set to 201 (for example) to take Darren's crown...?

 

[JusticeNJ]

That said, I wonder what the maximum race has ever been in a professional 14.1 tournament, and how many players are currently tied for the World Record...?

I think there's a few ways to answer.

One, is what is the maximum run and out. I think that's Darren's 200 and out to win. Seems a little arbitrary in that races to 200 were not always standard. For example, Crane's 150 and out against Balsis could have been a bigger run if it the contest was to 200 or more points. But Darren did it, on video, and its his record I believe. Or Sigel's run against Zuglan would probably still be going on if he didn't have to stop at 150 lol. With the current status of 14.1 tournaments. it might be a while before anyone even gets a shot at beating or tying this record, in the USA at least. Seems more likely to happen in Europe at this point.

Second, the most run in a tournament setting. I believe that belongs to Pete Margo, who ran 300+. The run continued after Margo ran out on his opponent.

Third, most consecutive balls run in a tournament without a miss across matches. I think that's either Margo or Ortmann. Our resident record keeper AtLarge or perhaps sjm might be able to help us here. I think either one of these guys put together a number of 100's or 150's and out in successive matches, from their first shot after their opponent's break, accumulating an insane number of balls pocketed before a miss that might be in the 400's.

Finally, I've seen old challenge match posters from the classic straight pool era of races to like a 1000 over a few days. But those seemed like challenge matches and not tournaments.

All from my memory, which is not very good lol.

 

[Johnny Rosato]

I've had a high run of 26 with several witnesses, they were all drunk of course, as was I, but we all were pretty good counters.
All of us got past the 8th grade, although I think a few were held back a couple times. Still there were folks that didn't
believe it happened, and that caused several of us some bruised heads, knuckles, and egos.

 

[middleofnowhere]

This is something that I have been saying all along since JS began his attempts at a high run "record" Almost everybody involved with pool in the 60s knew about Mike Eufemia's 600 + run, almost everybody also knew about Cranfield's super high practice runs, and Harold Worst was another in that era who was known to run 200 nitely and then just put his cue down for the night.

Yet, knowing all of this, when the next generation of Martin, Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Varner etc. came along- they were into competition, making a living at pool, not chasing some number. Mosconi's 526 was always mentioned because it had some attestation behind it - so folks looked upon it as some sort of official "record" I would agree that the only real record that matters is the 200 balls run in a competitive 14.1 event - if that is the most balls ever run in a competitive 14.1 event, then I give Mr. Appleton the crown to wear until someone can do the same or better.

It's not. They used to play 1000 point (or more), catch up matches over several nights in 200 point blocks. You would have to ask him but if I remember right I think Danny D ran 245 playing Joe Balsis in Miami.

I would have to think these catch up matches that were pretty common at one time players ran many very high runs. These were usually for good amounts of prize money with paid spectators. They can be considered real tournaments.

Also, Miz ran like 260 on Danny at the Congress in Miami playing a 400 point match for $5000.
This was the second match. Danny won the first one himself running over 200 also.

 

[Cameron Smith]

The highest competitive run I am personally aware of where the run was entirely part of the match and not a continuation is Niels Feijen's 304 ball run. This was against Ivo Arts as part of a 1000 point game.

 

[middleofnowhere]

The highest competitive run I am personally aware of where the run was entirely part of the match and not a continuation is Niels Feijen's 304 ball run. This was against Ivo Arts as part of a 1000 point game.

 

[middleofnowhere]

I don't know if you're making reference to my talking about a thousand point catch up match when you mentioned continuation. In a catch up match you play say in 1000 points you may play five consecutive 200 point matches. with the score marked from the previous night before.

in other words the player could find himself 300 or 400 points behind at some point in the match. And on that night they could conceivably run 250 350 trying to get to the mark for that night to tie up the game. So the run would take place in a course of one match. It's not like you're adding several runs together.