I don’t think so. I think the ‘dead‘ CB just means ‘reverse’ English when it hits the rail So it appears to deaden the rebound.
Anyone using TOI?
- Thread starter Casting 9s
- Start date
I don't think we have a clear enough understanding of CJ's system between us for this conversation. My takeaway from months of discussion with CJ about it here is that it doesn't make perfect sense - but like CTE it's helpful for some who don't need that. I need that.
pj
chgo
Our description of the cue ball isn’t that it is a dead ball.
It is a cue ball with no side spin.
A normal cut, using center ball, ends with the cb acquiring outside english.
When a small amount of inside english is applied to the cue ball, on contact, forces moving in opposite directions cancel each other.
The height of contact of the tip and speed, determine direction off contact.
A stun shut on a cut follows the tangent line.
When a tangent line path hits a rail, without side spin, the resultant rebound follows the same path as a naturally rolling ball, no sudden change is speed, either slowing down or speeding up, relative to normal.
By varying the ball path, using different speeds and heights of tip contact, a whole new set of ball paths are possible, with acquired english now only being acquired off the first rail contact, not the ball contact.
If you read my research into physics findings, I’m working with small enough offsets, that deflection is insignificant.
That means if inside english is applied, the process of selecting an inside line, would mean the new cue line would be a fat hit path, without deflection.
In order, to still make the shot, the inside line must be such that it creates a path to the impact area, a different issue.
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Most people are so used to juicing the cue ball on so many of their shots that the concept of a cue ball that isn’t spinning when it comes off the object ball is foreign to them.
They will possibly hear of TOI and try it for a few shots, but they usually give it up quickly because it is going against what they are used to and it reacts differently than what they are used to.
It takes several hours, maybe more, of constant use in order to realize what the benefits are. Most people will not put in the time and most players aren’t experienced enough to see what is going on. That isn’t a knock on lower-level players. It is just a fact. Everybody started at the lower level. Not everyone has HAMB.
Too many people confuse TOI with an aiming system when it is actually a playing system. There is a component of it that pertains to aiming since the inside of the cue ball always hits the target-side of a object ball on a shot that isn’t straight in, but that isn’t the focus of TOI.
The only thing I can recommend for anyone trying the system is to put in at least several hours without reverting to your old way and pay close attention to what the cue ball is doing when it travels around the rails after contact with the object ball. New paths and patterns will appear.
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Casting 9s
Member
So, I decided to take up pool about 6 months ago. I always wanted to do it, but just never got around to it. When I decided to do it, I wanted to start with some direction so I got on CJ's paid member site and learned about TOI right away. That was the best decision I could have made because I learned a good stance, good stroke mechanics, and of course TOI. I've practiced and/or played nearly every day in those 6 months and I've gotten lethal with the TOI system. I've learned to be more precise with the shotmaking within the TOI system by also watching his segment on his "ultimate aiming system". I've learned that if you kind of reverse engineer it, it works hand in hand with TOI. I get down on the inside section of the cueball that lines up perfectly with the center (or edge) of the cueball, and that is precisely where you need to stroke the shot. You HAVE to remember to accelerate as you come through the cueball to get the right amount of deflection needed. I've become a lights-out shot maker using the system this way. And I understand now about how the cueball comes off the rails (or even just the object ball) with a more natural angle because there is no additional spin on it. I just float the cueball from position to position.
I'm REALLY glad I started out using this so that I didn't have preconceived notions or other habits already. I think that helped me learn and master TOI much quicker.
Good for you and congratulations on rising above your circumstances and becoming a better player.
You're 100% right about those other habits. I staggered down that road to change myself after decades of playing.
It is brutally tough to mentally dump all the brainwash you've heard for a "thousand years" from pool room bums who have little concept of the higher levels of the game.
Way to go. The game needs more like you.
phreaticus
Well-known member
Congratulations, sounds like you are having fun developing your game, extremely fast. I think you do have a distinct advantage by using a "system" from the get go, so you don't have to unlearn as many mental/physical things. I think this is definitely the biggest barrier for most folks with pool playing experience. It's really quite a hard thing to let ego & self image go out the window & humble one self enough to go genuinely back to basics. Just taking the non-trivial time it takes to earnestly work on fundies is a huge investment that will yield huge returns for most folks, let alone learning complex advanced systems like CTE or TOI. From various other athletic, academic, professional pursuits in my life, I'm a huge proponent of fundies development. The simple fact is that most pros in any high level activity - reach that level due to absolute master command of fundamentals, not complex or flashy stuff. You can see this by watching any pro pool match - pretty much every miss/mistake is a basic rookie error - jumping up, inconsistent PSR, etc. I think this is actually one of the core strengths of CJ's materials - his approach to fundies are super solid (so are many, many other sources) but his approach to fundies is also very well integrated with his simplified approach to visualizing and aligning to the balls, etc.
I quit pool cold turkey for 25 yrs and then started playing again last year (long story). I was so out of the scene, I'd never heard of a Diamond table!
There is so much good online material available now, I decided rather than try to "catch back up", to just take an honest evaluation/inventory of my game and instead, to rip & replace where needed. I took a similar approach as you, back to fundies, work carefully up through stroke development, aiming concepts, CB control, banking, kicking, safety, etc. My overall speed is now maybe just 1-2 balls above when I was at the very top of my game decades ago, but my rate of improvement, confidence & consistency levels are in a realm that I couldn't conceive of when I played totally unstructured in my teens. Most importantly, my game is continuing to grow and I feel like I'm just now getting started on the race track. I would also encourage physical fitness, it really matters and separates one from most of the competition in pool world for sure.From what I can gather, most folks won't/can't take the time/discipline/dedication to methodically work through deeper aspects of the game like you are doing. (Yet many folks apparently have endless time/energy to debate all sorts of inane BS all day long online...?) I would encourage you to also investigate other instructional materials and systems; I went deep into CTE, and pretty much all the various aiming systems - learned a ton, and ultimately it helped me discover gaps in both systems, and positive things about TOI that I didn't originally understand or see the value of initially. In fact, I was attracted to TOI originally because I had some intuitive background to using a flat deflected CB with minimal spin from bar tables with the big CB's when I played strong many years ago, but CJ's material was hard for me to get into, at least initially. After exploring CTE in depth for about 6 mo (works fine, but takes forever to decode fact from fiction in that camp. I ended up exhausted, dissatisfied the return on my time investment, and my confidence/consistency levels much lower than I knew I could get to), I came back to CJ's paid membership stuff, worked through it methodically, and over time I found it to be a much more simple, intuitive, natural way to play the game.
You're allowed to add/remove, augment, and glue together whatever pieces of helpful material you glean from whatever sources you want. There is not only 1 "right" way to do things, and it seems to be a never ending journey.
Cheers,
P
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Casting 9s
Member
This is such a good point about focusing on fundamentals. I've always been a very big proponent of building a good foundation in anything I've taken up, whether it was when I was a baseball pitcher the first half of my life, or when I bowled for many years, and a myriad of other things I've taken up over the years. In this 6 months, I've already spent SO many hours practicing TOI, that the one thing that I honestly think has made the biggest difference in my improvement as I've gotten better is what CJ stresses a lot in his videos, and that's doing the same things over and over and over.. consistency. And it's more prevalent in pool than anything else I've ever done. Pool is such a fickle game, and you have to get those fundamentals burned into your routine until it becomes a subconscious act. Like CJ says, you have to train your mind to become a ball pocketing machine, and by that, he means that a machine does the same thing over and over the same way every time. So if you get those fundamentals down, that will help you FAR more than any aiming system. But like others have pointed out, TOI is more of a style of play than an aiming system, and I just can't play any other way now that I've learned this way. It's such a beautiful system and has made pool so enjoyable for me. I'm so happy I took it up, because I am very hooked now, and It's become a great form of relaxation and stress relief for me in my life already.Congratulations, sounds like you are having fun developing your game, extremely fast. I think you do have a distinct advantage by using a "system" from the get go, so you don't have to unlearn as many mental/physical things. I think this is the definitely the biggest barrier for most folks with pool playing experience. It's really quite a hard thing to let ego and self image go out the window and humble one self enough to go genuinely back to basics. Just taking the non trivial time it takes to earnestly work on fundamentals is a huge investment that will yield huge returns for most folks, let alone learning complex advanced systems like CTE or TOI. From various other athletic, academic, professional pursuits in my life, I'm a huge proponent of fundies development. The simple fact is that most pros in any high level activity - reach that level due to absolute master command of fundamentals, not complex or flashy stuff. You can see this by watching any pro pool match - pretty much every miss/mistake is a basic rookie error - jumping up, inconsistent PSR, etc. I think this is actually one of the core strengths of CJ's materials - his approach to fundies are super solid (so are many, many other sources) but his approach to fundies is also very well integrated with his simplified approach to visualizing and aligning to the balls, etc.
I quit pool cold turkey for 25 yrs and then started playing again last year (long story). I was so out of the scene, I'd never heard of a Diamond table!
From what I can gather, most folks won't/can't take the time/discipline/dedication to methodically work through deeper aspects of the game like you are doing. (Yet many folks apparently have endless time/energy to debate all sorts of inane BS all day long online...?) I would encourage you to also investigate other instructional materials and systems; I went deep into CTE, and pretty much all the various aiming systems - learned a ton, and ultimately it helped me discover gaps in both systems, and positive things about TOI that I didn't originally understand or see the value of initially. In fact, I was attracted to TOI originally because I had some intuitive attraction to using a flat deflected CB with minimal spin from bar tables with the big CB's when I played strong many years ago, but CJ's material was hard for me to get into, at least initially. After exploring CTE in depth for about 6 mo (works fine, but takes forever to decode fact from fiction in that camp. I ended up exhausted, dissatisfied the return on my time/energy investment, and confidence/consistency levels much lower than I knew I could get to), I came back to CJ's paid membership stuff, worked through it methodically, and over time I found it to be a much more simple, intuitive, natural way to play the game.
You're allowed to add/remove, augment, and glue together whatever pieces of helpful material you glean from whatever sources you want. There is not only 1 "right" way to do things, and it seems to be a never ending journey.
Cheers,
P
phreaticus
Well-known member
Wow. I don’t hang out here much, but this has to be one of the best posts I’ve seen. TOI, CTE, HAMB, xyz... Who cares, your enthusiasm for the game is infectious, I feel the same way and am sure many others do also. This is what the pool world needs!
CJ himself has said that his fundamentals were solid from the beginning. They required no editing.
But he still needed an edge over other serious players who had solid fundamentals too.
So he put together the repeatable TOI Aiming System with some help....he refers to it constantly as a "system".
I've never heard him refer to it as a "style of play". As usual, I'm probably wrong and stand ready to be corrected.
Casting 9s
Member
You're right, I mean, it is a "system", but I kind of see it as a style of play since the cueball takes different, more natural paths, so I kind of see it as a style of play, but "system" is definitely the better and more proper word.
Ain't really no big deal, pardner. "To each his own' seems to be a good thing with this game.
As our friend "Boogieman" in here says......"It don't mean thing unless it's got that ping"
Selah.
Is it a system ?
Do you put a TOI on outside english too ?
Do you put a TOI on outside english too ?
It’s a large leap from learning that a small amount of inside english applied with a jarring stroke worked better than center ball, ghost ball, to a whole elaborate system.
If what you learned could be summarized in a pamphlet, the potential commercial value of his impressive emergence from the seedy underbelly of the hustler culture, to tv center stage, gets missed.
The stage at that point is set to graft on an aiming method, akin to fractional aiming but with a lot of general description.
His azbilliard posts include several specific details that don‘t generalize well.
Extensive study of his methods in the generous number of azbilliards posts, has led to my opinion that his specific description are what he experienced with a particular shot he has in mind, at the moment.
Based on that, we get a number of situational differences based on the particular internal vision CJ has for the length and speed needed for the shot in mind.
On long shots only a small offset, “a hair”, is needed, if a blunt jarring “hammer stroke”, is used, to get the ball into the impact zone.
On the short shot he tells us you need to feel the overcut, the toed back cue line he describes and make sure you drive that cue through to get it, to get there.
His description of a touch of inside, is measured relative to the center ball, ghost ball standard, ON THE OUTER SURFACE OF THE BALL.
The actual amount of side spin force applied to a ball is based on the cue line distance from the cue ball core.
English doesn’t care where the ghost ball line is located.
How far the cue line is offset from the cb center is called the torque line, and is the lever turning the ball around its center of mass.
By tying his cue line to the “center ball, ghost ball standard”, his ability to drive the cue ball into the impact zone using a variable deflective stroke, is limited.
In order to get away from the ghost ball line, he devised a series of fractional aim lines, allowing for more adjustment, no longer the same as the ghost ball reference, but still using a small offset.
His solution acknowledges the limitations of using ghost ball with a TOI on the ball surface.
Ghost ball is a specific reference most players are familiar with.
Giving it up is another complication in following CJ’s logic.
Recognizing that the torque line determines the amount of side, allows a different cue line that still honors, using a small amount of inside to get its benefits, and frees the player from the ghost ball contact point on the surface.
The cue line is no longer tied to the ghost ball line.
A solution to the same problem without having to graft on an aiming system.
It becomes a cueing method that can be used with any aiming system that targets the ghost ball position.
The same torque line offset can be used on shots of all lengths, resulting in the same impact zone ball path without having to vary the amount of “touch” or the deflective variable from shot to shot to get there.
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phreaticus
Well-known member
Super interesting post. Thx
phreaticus
Well-known member
I’m no authority, but not sure why anyone is too interested in the naming semantics of system, vs style, vs xyz...
As for outside english, its strictly forbidden. You go straight to jail, and like theft in Saudia Arabia, penalty is cutting off of bridge hand.
Dr. Dave with his physics work provides us with a working version of eliminating throw with his gearing english, that uses ghost ball.
I rarely use center ball.
Instead I use convergent inside or gearing outside english.
That said, my first aiming task is finding the center ball line.
I get back up once I sense that ball path, unless I’m looking at a dead straight pot.
Any cue ball that needs spin to modify its angle off a cushion or that I want to roll naturally off contact requires an adjustment to the center ball line.
You develop an awareness of how the cue line can create the desired ball path but not fit on the center ball line.
Those adjustments must keep the original ball path in mind and honor the primacy of ball interaction.
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boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I do but I'm not formally trained in TOI. It's not really inside, but a slight shift of your cue to match the shot line.
I've been trying this tonight and hot damn is it working good. I aimed to overcut the shot, not at the point, but where the edge of the OB just passes the point. The TOI makes the ball split the pocket. The CB behaves amazingly, going where you want it in your head with minimal input.
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The thing is with using just a “touch of inside”, the knowledge is that deflection is negligible.
That leaves you with two other bits of knowledge, the effect of a very small amount of inside english on ob throw and then it’s spinless effect on the cue ball.
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