Does anyone have info or educated guess on how much these leagues are worth and how much the people who own them make?
Just curious.
Just curious.
APA, BCA, TAP: How much do they earn and are worth??
- Thread starter PoolGrapevine
- Start date
Could you be a bit more specific ? "League is worth" ? Lets just say that the woman who runs the APA, badly I might add, makes quite a paycheck. LO's, in a populated area, can make over $100K a year. Your $9 a week at work. Nothing more than a glorified Amway dealership.
tim
tim
Here's my old area's APA breakdown as far as I know (all costs are estimated and may not be whole):
246 teams x $30 per week * 42 weeks played = $309,960
$309960 - 20% to APA for licensing = $247,968
$247,968 - $26,500 cash and trophies paid to teams going to Vegas = $221,468 - $1,889 years gas for making three trips to every location each week = $219,579
Income: $219,579 paid to the operator for making 10,332 scoresheets; entering 51,660 data sets; 336 hours driving time; and fielding numerous phone calls per week.
Seems like a pretty solid deal to me. The only problem is starting up the league does not earn these revenues.
246 teams x $30 per week * 42 weeks played = $309,960
$309960 - 20% to APA for licensing = $247,968
$247,968 - $26,500 cash and trophies paid to teams going to Vegas = $221,468 - $1,889 years gas for making three trips to every location each week = $219,579
Income: $219,579 paid to the operator for making 10,332 scoresheets; entering 51,660 data sets; 336 hours driving time; and fielding numerous phone calls per week.
Seems like a pretty solid deal to me. The only problem is starting up the league does not earn these revenues.
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apa - 250,000ish members
bca - 50,000ish members
vnea - 60,000ish members
tap???
I guess you could do a little research and find out how much each league gets per member/per week and estimate an annual income based on that.
I don't know if the annual tournaments are money makers or not but they generate income.
I'd say that the APA is "worth" many many many millions of dollars. The others - who knows?
bca - 50,000ish members
vnea - 60,000ish members
tap???
I guess you could do a little research and find out how much each league gets per member/per week and estimate an annual income based on that.
I don't know if the annual tournaments are money makers or not but they generate income.
I'd say that the APA is "worth" many many many millions of dollars. The others - who knows?
I am the captain of an APA 8 ball team. My league was just sold. I do not know the particulars, but I was told that the 70 teams the lo had in all his leagues were sold for some where between $2-3000 a team. The apa business can be profitable. My old lo sold the league to buy a bigger league out west. He is moving his family with 2 small children across country for a bigger business.
I think the apa could make some rule changes that would make the league better, but all in all any league is a great way for players to meet other players. Too often if someone want some competition he has to play for money. My league charges $7 a week. If you don't play you don't pay, and you still may get some free practice matches.
How else can someone of a skill rating like 2, 3, or 4 going to get compitition. Do you expect a 3 to walk into a pool hall and say "who wants to play some cheap sets".
I think the apa could make some rule changes that would make the league better, but all in all any league is a great way for players to meet other players. Too often if someone want some competition he has to play for money. My league charges $7 a week. If you don't play you don't pay, and you still may get some free practice matches.
How else can someone of a skill rating like 2, 3, or 4 going to get compitition. Do you expect a 3 to walk into a pool hall and say "who wants to play some cheap sets".
kaznj:kaznj said:
I don't think the complaints/issues with APA are with the fact that high-skilled players are often pitted (and stand a good chance of losing) against lower-skilled players, or vice versa. The issues are:
1. The handicapping system, as implemented by the APA, is quite loosey-goosey, and not only inspires sandbagging, but actually makes it almost a requirement if your team wants any hope of standing a chance in the regionals, or that candy-bar-on-a-string enticement of "going to Vegas."
2. You make passing mention of the fact that leagues are a great way to meet other players and can be fun. True enough, when you're on a league team, you tend to form friendships and a bond that most would prefer not having to break. However, the APA is specifically set up to break up teams that "grow" together. Meaning, as a team "grows" in ability together (a natural outgrowth of team members helping each other play better in true team player form), when the total handicap value of the team reaches an arbitrary limit, the APA enforces that the team split up and fragment into other teams. I don't know about you, but I vehemently disagree with this policy. If the APA's handicap system were better architected, having to splinter or fragment teams to make up for the inadequacies of the handicap system would be completely unnecessary. Instead, the APA uses this as a money-making system; e.g. "Aha! There's an opportunity to take one team, splinter it into multiple teams to get multiple team dues, and triple/quadruple our profits!"
The APA is a glorified Amway system, IMHO. It's a money-making machine -- heard 'em in, take their money, and then heard 'em out. There's nothing wrong with leagues at all. Just how they are run. IMHO, BCA and TAP do a better job, albeit they don't have the nationwide "coverage" that the APA has.
Hope this is informative/helpful,
-Sean
sfleinen said:
But that is the whole premise of the APA's system, to have teams that are balanced and tempered by the handicaps.
There is no doubt that this is the league for people to come into if they are neophytes.
The APA has done more to bring non-pool fanatics into the game than all the other leagues and the Billiard Congress of America in the last 30 years.
You can hate on them all day but the fact is that their system as it is right now IS DESIGNED to encourage the people on the teams to recruit low handicap players to continually feed the need to maintain a 23 handicap. Thus it's the league members who are selling their coworkers and friends on joining the APA.
If each APA member is worth about $200 on average to the billiard industry on a yearly basis then that is around $50,000,000 PER YEAR that flows into the billiard industry which wouldn't be there were it not for the APA's system.
Where does that $200 come from? League dues, equipment purchases, table time, food and beverage purchases at matches and events are just some of the things that come to mind.
Amway is a multi-billion dollar company. APA is the 800lb gorilla in the league game. While all the leagues can take credit for pool's survival, especially in the lean years, it's the APA which can take the most credit for bringing new players to the game.
I have issues with the way the APA does things, have issue with the way certain leagues are ran and frankly think that some of the APA's policies are plain stupid. But I have a TON of respect for the business model which is damn near perfect.
As to the social aspect of it the argument can be made that by breaking up teams to form new ones it encourages a broader social circle. I personally prefer to stay with the same group of folks and can see both sides of the coin.
I think all of us owe the APA a debt of gratitude though for it's part in keeping pool alive in the USA.
Ok Renee you can send the check now
JB:JB Cases said:But that is the whole premise of the APA's system, to have teams that are balanced and tempered by the handicaps.
There is no doubt that this is the league for people to come into if they are neophytes.
The APA has done more to bring non-pool fanatics into the game than all the other leagues and the Billiard Congress of America in the last 30 years.
You can hate on them all day but the fact is that their system as it is right now IS DESIGNED to encourage the people on the teams to recruit low handicap players to continually feed the need to maintain a 23 handicap. Thus it's the league members who are selling their coworkers and friends on joining the APA.
If each APA member is worth about $200 on average to the billiard industry on a yearly basis then that is around $50,000,000 PER YEAR that flows into the billiard industry which wouldn't be there were it not for the APA's system.
Where does that $200 come from? League dues, equipment purchases, table time, food and beverage purchases at matches and events are just some of the things that come to mind.
Amway is a multi-billion dollar company. APA is the 800lb gorilla in the league game. While all the leagues can take credit for pool's survival, especially in the lean years, it's the APA which can take the most credit for bringing new players to the game.
I have issues with the way the APA does things, have issue with the way certain leagues are ran and frankly think that some of the APA's policies are plain stupid. But I have a TON of respect for the business model which is damn near perfect.
As to the social aspect of it the argument can be made that by breaking up teams to form new ones it encourages a broader social circle. I personally prefer to stay with the same group of folks and can see both sides of the coin.
I think all of us owe the APA a debt of gratitude though for it's part in keeping pool alive in the USA.
Ok Renee you can send the check now
*All* of your points are valid as to the contribution the APA (and other leagues -- let's not gloss over them!) have made to the billiards industry. This was *never* in dispute. A money-making machine, irrespective of how it makes that money, always contributes to the industry it partakes in. Getting the message out there, which the APA certainly does, always adds value to the industry, especially when it comes to attracting new players. This was never in dispute.
However, what you have glossed over was item #1 in my previous post. Other leagues have minimized the practice of sandbagging, but it's rampant in the APA. While the APA definitely gets the nod for bringing a lion's feast of new players to the billiards industry, it also gets the "whinced eyebrow grimace" for discouraging a lot of players that've gained enough experience in league play to know something's afoul (sandbagging).
Basically, your points (or shall I say the APA's points that you marketed) are "on cue" with bringing a lot of new folks into the billiards industry, that would probably not be there if not for the APA. But the other side of the coin also shows that when these players acquire experience and skill, they tend to leave the APA (for various reasons, including having "had it" with sandbagging) for other leagues. Perhaps the real point is that those who "hate on the APA" might not understand that the above-described points are *precisely the point* of the APA. Their business model is based and built on recruiting new players, not holding onto the experienced ones. It's a business model built on numbers alone. There comes a time when you outgrow the training wheels, so that's the time when the training wheels come off (i.e. the player has outgrown the APA and thus relinquishes his/her membership in it to look for greater challenges).
Good points all, and rep to you!
Warmest regards,
-Sean
Well written JB , If the APA did not exist in my area none of the pool rooms , mine included would survive . The BCA is a better format for competitive pool , but if you dont have 20 or more strong players in your area you can look down a list of rosters and tell which team will win .
Local League Ops Are To Blame
I have had from my earliest playing days in APA an issue with the handicapping system. People say that it works but I have my doubts. The speed with which you can move up in ranking and the time it takes to go back down are ridiculous.
A player can have a few good matches against opponents that were maybe not at their best......and Shazam! You just got moved up. Now wait and see how many matches you lose before you ever go back down (If you do)
My main complaint is with the policies and how they are enforced by LO's.
I understand that there is supposed to be a player committee and they are supposed to go out and watch matches and look for evidence of sandbagging, not marking defensive shots or watch a match if a team has a complaint filed against them. Speaking of complaints, I never liked the fact that you have to pay to file a protest. It should be an implied responsibility of an LO to mediate disputes.
I digress......the biggest reason I quit APA is the non-enforced items listed above. This resulted in many, many matches that were not fair due to the players/teams keeping their players ranked low purposely and then "Turning it on" during tournaments and LO's that fail to raise players up during a tournament.
I like the BCAPL and I think their system is pretty fair
I have had from my earliest playing days in APA an issue with the handicapping system. People say that it works but I have my doubts. The speed with which you can move up in ranking and the time it takes to go back down are ridiculous.
A player can have a few good matches against opponents that were maybe not at their best......and Shazam! You just got moved up. Now wait and see how many matches you lose before you ever go back down (If you do)
My main complaint is with the policies and how they are enforced by LO's.
I understand that there is supposed to be a player committee and they are supposed to go out and watch matches and look for evidence of sandbagging, not marking defensive shots or watch a match if a team has a complaint filed against them. Speaking of complaints, I never liked the fact that you have to pay to file a protest. It should be an implied responsibility of an LO to mediate disputes.
I digress......the biggest reason I quit APA is the non-enforced items listed above. This resulted in many, many matches that were not fair due to the players/teams keeping their players ranked low purposely and then "Turning it on" during tournaments and LO's that fail to raise players up during a tournament.
I like the BCAPL and I think their system is pretty fair
iba7467 said:
Oh my.
I believe I've had to explain how ridiculous your math was at least once before. May I ask if you have ever owned a business of your own? I'd ask how much accounting experience you have, but it's pretty obvious that you are lacking based on your calculations above.
If you honestly believe that an LO makes that kind of money running a league, why on Earth have you not purchased an APA franchise? I couldn't imagine anyone not wanting to turn such little work into a nearly a quarter of a million dollar business (based on your calculations). Heck, Warren Buffett would be wise to start up an APA league based on your figures.
I don't mean to be harsh, but people need to be embarrassed when they attempt to calculate someone's income when they are clearly not equipped to do so.
Why don't you just tell us that 5-2= 4 since it wouldn't be any more accurate than your post above.
APA LO said:
Well, he isnt that far off. It is market driven. I was going to open one in GB. but after research, I decided it would not have gone over very well.
FYI.. A few years ago the local LO here was offered and turned down close to million dollar offer. So he has to be bringing it in. In fact he hired someone to take over almost all of the leg work.
PROG8R said:
Oh, he is that far off. It's not even remotely close. And you can't compare the value someone puts on their blood, sweat and tears to their personal income.
Income is not related to equity in your business. If the McDonalds down the street sells for a million dollars, does that mean that the owner of that McDonalds was making a million dollars a year? Absolutely not.
When you sell your business (regardless of what kind of business you sell), you are attaching blood, sweat and tears, sentimental value, your own future earnings along with future value of said business.
APA LO said:
Here's my old area's APA breakdown:
246 teams x $30 per week x 42 weeks played = $309,960
$309960 - 20% to APA for licensing = $247,968
$247,968 - $24,500 cash paid to teams going to Vegas = $223,468
Please explain to me where my math is wrong above since I believe 5-2=4. You are absolutely correct that I am not directly involved and therefore do not know the entire costs of operation. I have contacted the APA about starting a league, so please again correct me if I am wrong, and 20% was the APA franchising fee along with the $20 per member per year. I did not proceed with start-up due to the required number of teams to recoup my initial investment. Also, the area I requested pricing for covered more square miles and had only 1/10 the population and an even greater variation in bars/per capita.
Please also tell me what other league only pays less than 10% of their revenue back to the players. Again, I am not commenting on your league. As you are so adamant about my miscalculations, please better inform me as to the total costs. I am quite certain of my revenues as this is simple math. You seem to take me posting the revenues as an insult to you personally. You may pay much more money than the operator of our league did, you may provide more additional benefits, you may run more tournaments....
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iba7467 said:
First, you need to explain to me whether you punch a clock or actually own a business. Heck, JB can probably explain to you with his cue manufacturing business that there are all kinds of costs associated with running your own business.
And I have a really tough time believing that your league paid back 7.9%. Are you honestly telling me that not one single team received any sort of acknowledgement at the end of each session, and that the only pay back to the league in any form came in the form of trips to Vegas?
I'm calling bull on that one.
PROG8R said:
Since you brought it up, most small businesses (those with less than $6 million/year revenues), are valued based on EBIT (earnings before interest and taxes).
Generally the largest multiple an individual could realistically (all conditions withstanding) expect to recieve would be 6 times EBIT. This number assumes consistent earnings and market leadership (a given for an established APA league). This number can be reduced by lack of concrete assets (another definite for an APA league unless the operator is selling an office, office equipment, and company vehicles). This would then mean that your local operator would have to be earning $166,000 or more after expenses and taxes for this to have even been considered (likely much less due to the lack of concrete assets).
tap, tap, tap! As a former APA L.O., I can tell you for certain, that 99.9% of the people who post negatively on these kinds of threads have NO CLUE about how an APA franchise operates. First, and foremost, it's about keeping your players happy. If you're not a happy player, you'll find a different league to play in...or not play at all. You cannot compare APA to BCA or TAP. They are nothing alike. Every league has it pros and cons...but it begins (and usually ends) with the local operator.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
APA LO said:
APA LO said:
I haven't punched a clock in years and my pay is directly related to profits (not revenues). I calculate everyday value-added operations, profitability, market share, and cost-of-quality.
As an APA member in the league for five years, I can promise you that not a single cent of league revenue money was paid to any team/individual without the direct intention of using the money to go to Vegas.
This payout is also void if the team does not go to Vegas and is defaulted to the runner-up. There are two other posters on this forum that played in the same league and saw the same payouts. Feel free to check on it. The operator has not once had an added $ or free event either. The only reward aside from the cash which must be used to go to Vegas is one plaque per player of the winning team of each session (yes, these cost money but you can bet all you want that it doesn't bring the payout above 10%).
iba7467 said:
This doesn't answer my previous question, a question I have now asked twice.
To respond to this post, however, people can sell their businesses for whatever they want if they can find a buyer. The "average" sale might just be 6 times EBIT, but that doesn't hold me to anything. I have the choice to sell my business for that amount or not to sell.
Not everyone is looking to sell their business. You can make me a ridiculous offer today, but if I'm not interested in selling it for that ridiculous price, it doesn't mean it is worth that amount.