APA..change your rules...

[Mickey Qualls]

Paid my fees every week for a year, win the trip to Vegas but due to my
1st born i could not attend the week they were having the event...
I asked what would happen? Well my league operator said there was nothing she could do...i dont win anything at all.
All in the mean time she keeps asking me if i am gonna attend,and if not she didnt want to spend the money on a plane ticket....
So i figured she would attempt to figure out a way to compensate me for my time and my hard earned money i put into this APA league...
No compensation is apparently in order for me.
I have contacted APA and they are on board with there colleague...

I can't tell from your post if this is a trip that you won outright in a tournament, or if this was more of a 'Luck of the Draw' kind of thing. I also don't know if any alternates were selected in the event someone could not make the trip.
I sympathize with your plight. You feel like you tried to do the right thing and were left out in the cold. I'm going to try and put myself in your shoes for a moment.........

I've played in a few different leagues, and there are tournaments that specify that you are 'playing for the opportunity to play in Las Vegas'. If you cannot, for WHATEVER reason, play in the tournament, you forfeit any prize money/entry fees and whatever else is associated with that trip. The majority of the leagues that I've played in draw at least two 'alternates' in the event that the first person picked cannot attend. Then the league has done it's job by sending someone to represent them in Las Vegas.
Flip the coin..... what if you were drawn as an alternate, but the LO chose to give the monies to the player that couldn't attend ? At this point, my only beef would be if someone else was sent to Las Vegas to represent the league in my place (and I could accept that), or if the LO kept that money for themselves (that would be uncool).

Based on what you've posted in this thread regarding this subject....
In my opinion, the league really owes you nothing. Yes, the timing is unfortunate, but that's the way things are. You kind of have to swallow the pill on this one.
If the LO makes the exception for you, then Pandora's Box has been opened for every other player to simply 'take the money', and not the trip. The whole concept behind the trip is to have league representation at national events.

Hope this helps.

 

[Scott Lee]

Here's how I handled this exact situation, when I was an APA LO twenty years ago. In the tournament to determine which team got the trip to Vegas, I paid cash prizes to the other teams playing in the tournament, and vying for the trip. The team that won decided, as a team, that they couldn't/didn't want to go to Vegas. The team that took 2nd DID want to go. I allowed the 2nd place team to swap their prize money ($800 total) with the 1st place team...and they took the trip (which I paid out $1500 for entry fee, travel expenses, hotel rooms and 'spending money'). If the 1st place team had not agreed to the switch, they would have gotten nothing...and the money would have been put back into my league. Just because you win doesn't mean that you can swap the prize out for cash or something else.

In the case of the OP, I would have just taken the trip 'money'; allowed my team to find another substitute player, and had them pay me for the plane ticket and hotel room.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yeah, you're right. I don't know for sure that this operator doesn't pocket the money. My bad. MOST operators wouldn't, and the number who might are way fewer than some on these forums would like everyone to believe. My guess, and this is just a guess based on what I know of the operators in the network, is that there are more operators pulling money OUT of their pockets to help with travel expenses, as skyrocketing costs make it impossible to predict what you will need. This is also why it's called "travel assistance" and not a "free trip".

By the way, even if the operator does pocket the money, it's not illegal or crooked. It might not even be greedy, but in some cases it probably is. None of us are required by APA or by law to provide anything to teams/players in the form of awards, monetary or otherwise. It would be REALLY STUPID not to, but it's not a requirement.

 

[bboxgrinder]

Yeah, you're right. I don't know for sure that this operator doesn't pocket the money. My bad. MOST operators wouldn't, and the number who might are way fewer than some on these forums would like everyone to believe. My guess, and this is just a guess based on what I know of the operators in the network, is that there are more operators pulling money OUT of their pockets to help with travel expenses, as skyrocketing costs make it impossible to predict what you will need. This is also why it's called "travel assistance" and not a "free trip".

By the way, even if the operator does pocket the money, it's not illegal or crooked. It might not even be greedy, but in some cases it probably is. None of us are required by APA or by law to provide anything to teams/players in the form of awards, monetary or otherwise. It would be REALLY STUPID not to, but it's not a requirement.

Then why is it advertised as winning a free trip? Maybe it isn't in your league but certainly is in this area.

If the APA don't require you to pay nothing back to your players that sums up quite a bit about the APA to me. GREED & don't give a sh** about it's players other then collecting their money. That is simply showing zero morals to it's customers. You or anyone can come back and say it's a business, entertainment, etc. Blah Blah, it is Bulls***.

 

[Scott Lee]

Sorry bboxgrinder, but you obviously know NOTHING about the APA. It is not now, nor never has been a payback league...EVER! The fact that you ignore that shows me that either you don't know anything about APA...or, to you, league pool is only about trying to make money (another fallacy in thinking, imo). For MOST APA league operators, they provide a fun, mostly fair, safe environment for league players. The trip to Vegas is a 'carrot on the stick', but only a few lucky teams will make it to the nationals (700+, out of 30,000 teams). Most other APA teams neither win, nor expect anything back, other than a good time...which most of them have.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If the APA don't require you to pay nothing back to your players that sums up quite a bit about the APA to me. GREED & don't give a sh** about it's players other then collecting their money. That is simply showing zero morals to it's customers. You or anyone can come back and say it's a business, entertainment, etc. Blah Blah, it is Bulls***.

 

[Spantiznik]

Sorry for you not being able to go. It is something that I wish I could do every year.

In the league I am in. The LO draws out of a hat on which team/player they send. Then they draw teams/players as back-up, in case said team/players are not able to make it for any reason.

If you are playing TO win the trip, and NOT for the chance of going, then I would agree with you that you should have been given something.

I guess it all comes down on the wording they use.

Maybe next time !!

 

[bboxgrinder]

Sorry bboxgrinder, but you obviously know NOTHING about the APA. It is not now, nor never has been a payback league...EVER! The fact that you ignore that shows me that either you don't know anything about APA...or, to you, league pool is only about trying to make money (another fallacy in thinking, imo). For MOST APA league operators, they provide a fun, mostly fair, safe environment for league players. The trip to Vegas is a 'carrot on the stick', but only a few lucky teams will make it to the nationals (700+, out of 30,000 teams). Most other APA teams neither win, nor expect anything back, other than a good time...which most of them have.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No Scott I know nothing. The one thing I do know is you must have the APA tatooed on your a** to sell all the gullable your services as quick as you jump in these APA threads. As for me making money in leagues I don't even play leagues so wrong assumption. And last of all why in the h*** anyone would pay you a dime for anything is beyond me because you have got to be the rudest "professional person" in here.

 

[Scott Lee]

bboxgrinder...Oh please!...reread your reply to APA Operator. If that's not rude, I don't know what it. I never said you were a league player. As far as my skills as an instructor, that remains to be seen. My students speak for me... Sorry you took my reply to you as such an insult...BUT, before you start badmouthing a league you know nothing about, you should learn about it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No Scott I know nothing. The one thing I do know is you must have the APA tatooed on your a** to sell all the gullable your services as quick as you jump in these APA threads. As for me making money in leagues I don't even play leagues so wrong assumption. And last of all why in the h*** anyone would pay you a dime for anything is beyond me because you have got to be the rudest "professional person" in here.

 

[Spantiznik]

Then why is it advertised as winning a free trip? Maybe it isn't in your league but certainly is in this area.

If the APA don't require you to pay nothing back to your players that sums up quite a bit about the APA to me. GREED & don't give a sh** about it's players other then collecting their money. That is simply showing zero morals to it's customers. You or anyone can come back and say it's a business, entertainment, etc. Blah Blah, it is Bulls***.

Hey Bbox, Fully understandable why this would be fustrating.

Just like other league, they are not required to pay for a trip to where the nationals or internationals are being played. But, in this case, if it is advertised that you win the trip if you come in first place or drawn they should have tried to come to a comperise.

I have heard of one instance that since this was a drawn prize, that the person winning had the choice of $$$ or the trip.

As for this being a business, I believe that all league's (BCA, APA, CPA, VNEA, ...) are all businesses, and are trying to offer the best service as possible. Some people like it, some people don't.

 

[bboxgrinder]

bboxgrinder...Oh please!...reread your reply to APA Operator. If that's not rude, I don't know what it. I never said you were a league player. As far as my skills as an instructor, that remains to be seen. My students speak for me... Sorry you took my reply to you as such an insult...BUT, before you start badmouthing a league you know nothing about, you should learn about it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott you are spouting off at the mouth to someone you don't even know. I have been around this game for 28 years. I played the APA for 7 years many moons ago, I have played BCAPL, & ACS. I also ran an ACS league for 5 years where I use to live. So I know PLENTY about the APA and leagues. And yes you are rude to plenty of people on here. For some reason your arrogant a** thinks you are a bit better then others from what I have seen and I am not alone in that perception. I was wise enough to stop being a sucker to the APA long ago so you or anyone else that cries it's a business needs to get the clue. The APA screws it's members over and don't even use vasoline. So I would suggest you preach to some unknowing newbie because I am not that person. I do however think you should wipe that APA juice off your chin because it's starting to run on the floor. Rude is what rude sees.

 

[APA Operator]

Then why is it advertised as winning a free trip? Maybe it isn't in your league but certainly is in this area.

If the APA don't require you to pay nothing back to your players that sums up quite a bit about the APA to me. GREED & don't give a sh** about it's players other then collecting their money. That is simply showing zero morals to it's customers. You or anyone can come back and say it's a business, entertainment, etc. Blah Blah, it is Bulls***.

When you say "this area", you mean where? Is it the same area as the OP? If it's not, then maybe teams from your area actually do get a free trip. If you tell me where "this area" is, I can verify whether it's actually advertised that way or if you're remembering something from many moons ago.

Even if it IS advertised as a free trip, I bet it's not advertised as "a free trip or cash equivalent" or "a free trip to be taken any time you desire". My guess is it would be "a free trip to Nationals". If you choose not to go to Nationals, it's still free, right?

Now, just because APA doesn't REQUIRE us to provide benefits to our players, it doesn't mean they don't STRONGLY ENCOURAGE it. I mean, I did say it would be REALLY stupid not to. In your mind, does that still equate to GREED? It's not like they require us NOT to provide benefits.

In fact, here's a little story about how APA views travel assistance. A few years ago at the National Team Championships, APA founder Terry Bell found himself in a conversation with some members of a team from Las Vegas. That's right, locals. When he learned that they got no travel assistance from their operator (why would locals need travel assistance?), he walked them down to the hotel registration desk and booked two rooms for them with his own credit card. Now does that sound like an organization that doesn't give a sh** about its customers?

APA wants every team that qualifies for Nationals to be able to make the trip and participate. They encourage operators to help in whatever way they can, but they also realize that there are costs involved that they cannot control, therefore they cannot require every operator to do it the same way. For an operator in a rural area who has maybe 25 teams, flights and hotel rooms for eight players might present a hardship. For someone in, say, Southern California, maybe airfare doesn't make sense. Maybe they can provide rooms and a little "spending" money. Because it is different from region to region, the reasonable thing to do is allow each operator the latitude to do whatever makes sense for his/her own region and market size.

 

[BrokeStroke]

Just real quick on how its done in the SW PA APA....(and also my $.02)

If your team wins a trip to Vegas, the team, as a whole, gets $3000. That is based on if there was a full bracket for the regional tournaments....And they only send 1 team per year, regardless on how many different teams win the 3 regional qualifiers. That team is hand-picked by the LO, so there can be so many ways things can go wrong there.

Now, 1 ticket from Pittsburgh to Las Vegas is around $600. 5 people on the team x $600 = $3000. So the winning team basically gets a free plane ticket and has to pay out of pocket for rooms and everything else.

In the event that a player cannot make the trip to Vegas, the money will be given to an alternate from the team that is qualified to go. If there are no alternates that can go, the money is distributed evenly among the remaining team. The team can also choose to give the money to the player that isnt going.
However, if the team chooses not to go, NOBODY recieves the $3000, and what happens to it is 'confidential'. (that means its in somebodys pocket)

If youre looking for a return from a league, or a prize.....quit the APA and find a different league. The APA holds very few $$ events and the prize money they give out is minimal even though the entry fees are not-so-minimal. I shoot APA, I never expect to get anything in return from the APA. I just have a few buddies that asked me to do it and I did.

 

[Bamacues]

Currently, I am not participating in the APA, but I did for several years. I was fortunate enough to make it to Vegas in 7 of the 11 years that I played. I enjoyed every trip.

You will never break even on the trip to Vegas, but you will get most of your travel expenses paid through your winnings. APA is not a money league. If you are trying to win money, it is the wrong place.

In our region, Maryland and parts of Virginia, the Vegas qualifying teams get $5000 for their 8 players to share for the trip to Vegas. Terry Justice offers to book flights and rooms, but does not require that you utilize their services...you are free to make your flight/room arrangements on your own. The winners were never "required" to make the trip in order to get their money...however, it was being discussed to make that a requirement for the winners the last year I played. I could understand that being made a requirement.

As long as the rules are laid out to you before hand, I see nothing at all wrong with any of the league payment practices. You know what you are getting into before you start. If someone advertises one thing and does not follow through on it, then that is another thing...sue them and let the court decide if they did right or wrong.

The only thing that I have ever hated about the trip funds is that, in our area, the moneys that you receive for the trip offset are treated as taxable income. APA issues an IRS Form 1099, and you have to pay taxes on it at the end of the year, so, if you win $1000, it will cost you $$$ come tax time.

Joe

 

[OneIron]

So you pay APA annual fees to be a member, weekly fees for every match, fees for Cup Tournaments, and fees for Regional Tournaments. All for a chance to go to Vegas and compete against a ton of other teams who may or may not have valid handicaps. Seems like the LO and the APA would guarantee at least a portion of the travel expenses, regardless of whether you go or not. You've certainly earned it if you qualify for the Nationals. Write a check to the team captain and show some class...

 

[justadub]

To all you folks that suggest writing a check to the team captain.... that is a much bigger problem than it sounds like.

How many times do you think a captain would skip out with the money? How would any LO get a guarantee that those players would actually get to vegas to represent his territory?

Writing a check to the team captain is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure what the answer is, but this is not it.

 

[DelaWho???]

To all you folks that suggest writing a check to the team captain.... that is a much bigger problem than it sounds like.

How many times do you think a captain would skip out with the money? How would any LO get a guarantee that those players would actually get to vegas to represent his territory?

Writing a check to the team captain is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not sure what the answer is, but this is not it.

That's how it's done in my area. I got a check and it was my responsibility to get my team there. One guy couldn't go and he got paid out his share of the money. I booked the travel for the rest of us (after we sat down as a team and agreed that's what we wanted to do) and when it was all said and done everyone who went got airfare and hotel for the week. In addition those players that elected to share a room got an additional $325 in spending money, those of us who didn't share a room ended up with an additional $180 in spending money. We stayed across the street at Circus Circus. When we got there we were paid out for the last place finisha nd then when we were eliminated we got paid a bit more. The money paid in Vegas was divided among those of us who made the trip. This was 2009 and it was a great time.
5 teams from Delaware went to Vegas and no one skipped out with the money. If that's really a concern you should pick your team captain more carefully. These people are your friends and neighbors. They frequent the same establishments as you do. How stupid would you have to be to try and rip your friends off?

 

[Rich R.]

So you pay APA annual fees to be a member, weekly fees for every match, fees for Cup Tournaments, and fees for Regional Tournaments. All for a chance to go to Vegas and compete against a ton of other teams who may or may not have valid handicaps. Seems like the LO and the APA would guarantee at least a portion of the travel expenses, regardless of whether you go or not. You've certainly earned it if you qualify for the Nationals. Write a check to the team captain and show some class...

I agree that you pay annual fees to be a member, which cover administrative costs and probably some profit. After all, the APA is a business, just like any other business.

Although weekly fees do go to the LO, the amount paid probably wouldn't even cover the table time for the matches. It's the room owner that gets screwed on that front, not the players.

Although I'm sure some of that money is profit for the local LO, a lot of it gets paid out in trophies and prizes for playoffs, tri-annual tournaments and for the Vegas qualifier tournaments.

In my area, once you get past the division playoffs, you don't pay any more entry fees for the tri-annual touranments or the Vegas qualifier touranments.

Also, the team winning the Vegas trip isn't the only team getting some cash. In this area, every team going to the tri-annual tournament or the Vegas qualifier gets some cash. There are also tournaments for the MVP and Top Guns from each session that have no entry fees and pay out cash prizes.

There is no doubt that the LO's are making some money. It is a business and they deserve a profit. However, a lot of money is getting paid back to the players in different ways. It isn't a lot but, after all, the APA is a social league, not a pro tour.

Reguarding the OP, it is really too bad that you couldn't take the Vegas trip but, in the end, that is not the fault of the league and they don't owe you a thing.

 

[justadub]

That's how it's done in my area. I got a check and it was my responsibility to get my team there. One guy couldn't go and he got paid out his share of the money. I booked the travel for the rest of us (after we sat down as a team and agreed that's what we wanted to do) and when it was all said and done everyone who went got airfare and hotel for the week. In addition those players that elected to share a room got an additional $325 in spending money, those of us who didn't share a room ended up with an additional $180 in spending money. We stayed across the street at Circus Circus. When we got there we were paid out for the last place finisha nd then when we were eliminated we got paid a bit more. The money paid in Vegas was divided among those of us who made the trip. This was 2009 and it was a great time.
5 teams from Delaware went to Vegas and no one skipped out with the money. If that's really a concern you should pick your team captain more carefully. These people are your friends and neighbors. They frequent the same establishments as you do. How stupid would you have to be to try and rip your friends off?

I appreciate that. I appreciate that you are a stand-up guy, and did what you're supposed to do.

Still, human nature is human nature. I've seen instances where the weekly money hasn't been sent in, so what's to prevent Vegas-money from being skipped with?

That, and even if we were to believe most of the team captains would do the right thing with the money, you'd then have to hope they do it correctly. Meaning bookings and all that goes with it. That's a big responsibility. I don't doubt that you've done a great job, but as I look around (figuratively) at the captains in my league, I wonder how many of them could arrange the airfare and everything else, and do it correctly.

Not to mention, having the LO's do the booking probably allows for some group discounts as well. That is just a guess...

Hey, I'm glad it works for you. I'm also glad our guy does it the way he does.

 

[DelaWho???]

I appreciate that. I appreciate that you are a stand-up guy, and did what you're supposed to do.

Still, human nature is human nature. I've seen instances where the weekly money hasn't been sent in, so what's to prevent Vegas-money from being skipped with?

That, and even if we were to believe most of the team captains would do the right thing with the money, you'd then have to hope they do it correctly. Meaning bookings and all that goes with it. That's a big responsibility. I don't doubt that you've done a great job, but as I look around (figuratively) at the captains in my league, I wonder how many of them could arrange the airfare and everything else, and do it correctly.

Not to mention, having the LO's do the booking probably allows for some group discounts as well. That is just a guess...

Hey, I'm glad it works for you. I'm also glad our guy does it the way he does.

Each team member was given the option of making their own arrangements. We decided as a group to book the trip as a group. The down side was that by the time we all made the decision to let me handle the arrangements, the costs went up (the earlier you book the cheaper it is). Next time I'll have the meeting before we actually qualify so we can pull the trigger on arrangements as soon as the check clears. Anyone who doesn't want to go will get their share of the pay out. It's the fair thing to do and the right thing to do.

Any captain who can't get the score sheets and money in on time won't be a captian for long around here. Like I said everyone in the league lives in the same community and frequents the same watering holes. Not too many places to go if you are a skunk... Big city players might face a different situation.

 

[justadub]

Each team member was given the option of making their own arrangements. We decided as a group to book the trip as a group. The down side was that by the time we all made the decision to let me handle the arrangements, the costs went up (the earlier you book the cheaper it is). Next time I'll have the meeting before we actually qualify so we can pull the trigger on arrangements as soon as the check clears. Anyone who doesn't want to go will get their share of the pay out. It's the fair thing to do and the right thing to do.

Any captain who can't get the score sheets and money in on time won't be a captian for long around here. Like I said everyone in the league lives in the same community and frequents the same watering holes. Not too many places to go if you are a skunk... Big city players might face a different situation.

LOL.... we are very rural here, and all frequent the same places like you and yours do. I don't want to continue bantering about this, I wish we could count on everyone behaving like you and your players do. I just doubt that there are enough folks like you to make that work everywhere, without bigger problems arising. And trust me, I really don't like having to think so little of people. I just think in this instance the less rope you give people to hang themselves with, the better. That's all.

 

[Mickey Qualls]

My two cents

I've played league for quite a while now, sometimes as only a player and other times as team captain. It helps that I've played with the same guys for the majority of that time.

Dela makes a good point about scoresheets and dues. I've been fortunate enough, due to a couple of guys paying me thier complete dues upfront, that I write a check to the league and cover the entire season. Then the rest of the team simply pays me as we go. They all know I front the money for the team. When that topic came up regarding another captain, one of my guys said to another player, "If Mickey was gonna screw us, he wouldn't pay the league with his own money".
I would prefer to do it that way and deal with player dues internally, than have to come up short with the league. If one of my guys can't pay the dues that week, he may double up the next week. My point is that in the end, if someone stiffs me on the dues (which has never happened), I take it out of thier cut of the prize money. Regardless, my team is always 'right' with the league dues as far as the league is concerned.

We've also had a long standing rule amongst ourselves that we're playing for the chance to represent our league in Las Vegas. If, for some reason, any one of us (including myself) cannot go, then the money that has been allotted to them for the trip has to go to someone else.
If our league pays out $4000 towards Las Vegas, with five players, that's $800 per player. If someone can't go, then I as captain have to find a suitable replacement. And I have to get him out there and get him a room. And I'm using that $800 to do that.
As far as regular season prize money, that guy's entitled to that. But I need to field a team out in Vegas, and that $4K that the league gives us for winning the playoffs is what that money is for. It's not for distributing to the players so they can pay the electric bill, it's to represent that particular league at the nationals.

Sorry if it seems like I'm ranting. I had knee surgery a couple days ago, and I'm still reeling from the Oxy and Percocet.
Worst part is that my table is in the basement, so even when I get home, I'm still not gonna be able to bang a few around for a while.