APA Cost Analysis vs Pro Tour

Shawn Armstrong said:
What I love about his posts is something that has come to light recently. He ran an establishment that made 7 figures, yearly, from the pockets of pool players. That, at minimum, is $8M. He then sold the business for many times what he bought it for. With that kind of scratch, you figure he could donate a few hundred K to the cause, seeing as us pool players paid for his house, cars, etc, right? But no....his idea is to bleed us....the consumer....just a little more so that some people who are great at pool don't have to get actual jobs.......you know...like the rest of us. Excellence at something isn't a guarantee of livelihood. My dad was the best furnace installer and repairman in my hometown. He learned back in the day of oil fired furnaces. When natural gas hit our town, he was pretty much out of business within 5 years. Did he whine about it? Nope. He became a general contractor, with a small heating business on the side, and he continued to work.

If you can make a living at pool in its current state, I admire you. But if you can't, do what the rest of us do, and get a f@#king job.
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He^^^^^^^^^^^^ drops the mic and walks off stage.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Regarding your post in RED above!

I have said numerous times what my opinion is on this topic and you and others continue to "mis-characterize" my comments.

Oddly enough, I was around when the 1st APA league was established in the Maryland area. I was a teenager and privy to what was going on as many discussions were taking place at my local pool room at its conception. I can confirm that building a pro pool platform was part of the vision. JAM was around back then and she and other local players know the truth. Danny Green, Scotty Boggs & Tom Wirth can shed a ton of light on the beginning stages of the APA leagues. Terry was from Maryland and Mike Sigel's running partner Larry Hubbert was in the area from time to time. Anyway, it can be confirmed or investigated if anyone is so inclined.
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Nobody is mis-characterizing your statements. The only reason your would be so worried about how much money the APA has or what they choose to do with it is if you felt you have a right to have a small say so in how much they have and what they do with it. The truth is you believe there should be a cap on what people can earn. The truth is that you are in favor of stealing (and yes that is exactly what it is no matter how you want to try to spin it) from the guy with more to give it to the guy with less. The truth is you see the APA as the "rich guy" who shouldn't have as much as they have, even though they earned it, and you would like to see it go to someone else who didn't earn it simply because they don't have as much. It is called socialism. You can deny you have these beliefs all you want but the truth is if you didn't have these deep down beliefs you wouldn't be so worried about what the APA has, or how they spend it. That is the only reason one would be concerned about how much they have or how they spend it--because you feel you should have some say so in it.

As far as whether the APA initially intended to be more supportive of pro pool... Did it ever occur to you that maybe this was the original business plan because they originally thought it could be profitable to be involved in pro pool, was never meant to be charitable to begin with, and then they quickly realized they were wrong about the prospects for profitability in being involved on the pro side and so backed away from it?

Or did it occur to you that maybe the pro pool side was actually intended to charitable but as they got more involved and found out more information they quickly realized that pro pool was not a deserving and worthy cause particularly in light of the fact that they refuse to even try to help themselves?

And again, even if the original plan of the APA was also to try to charitably help out pro pool while at the same time making some money too but they changed their mind about helping pro pool for whatever reason, so what? Who cares? It's their money. They only reason you could possibly care is if you think there should be a cap on what somebody earns or feel you should have some right to have some say so in how they spent that money. Otherwise the fact that they changed their mind, for whatever the reason, and how they choose to spend their money wouldn't be important to you. It just wouldn't. It is important to you only because you feel you should have some say so in what they earn or how they spend it. I and many others don't happen to agree with you on that belief--at all.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Snooker matches are not 8 hours long of continous play like the format these guys you mentioned were in. They played for 5 days at 8 hours each day. Much different from a 1 to 2 hour snooker match that requires dress attire.

If their match and format was only 1 to 2 hours and similar to snooker then I could say it is a fair comparison. But, it really is not fair to make that comparison.

If they dressed in the formal attire and it cost them to lose due to being uncomfortable, it would be a very poor business decision effecting their lively-hood.

KD
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I'm guessing you don't, and have never, watched snooker. 1-2 hour matches, huh? I guess you think they knock off an event in a weekend, huh? ;)
 
Poolplaya9 said:
Nobody is mis-characterizing your statements. The only reason your would be so worried about how much money the APA has or what they choose to do with it is if you felt you have a right to have a small say so in how much they have and what they do with it. The truth is you believe there should be a cap on what people can earn. The truth is that you are in favor of stealing (and yes that is exactly what it is no matter how you want to try to spin it) from the guy with more to give it to the guy with less. The truth is you see the APA as the "rich guy" who shouldn't have as much as they have, even though they earned it, and you would like to see it go to someone else who didn't earn it simply because they don't have as much. It is called socialism. You can deny you have these beliefs all you want but the truth is if you didn't have these deep down beliefs you wouldn't be so worried about what the APA has, or how they spend it. That is the only reason one would be concerned about how much they have or how they spend it--because you feel you should have some say so in it.

As far as whether the APA initially intended to be more supportive of pro pool... Did it ever occur to you that maybe this was the original business plan because they originally thought it could be profitable to be involved in pro pool, was never meant to be charitable to begin with, and then they quickly realized they were wrong about the prospects for profitability in being involved on the pro side and so backed away from it?

Or did it occur to you that maybe the pro pool side was actually intended to charitable but as they got more involved and found out more information they quickly realized that pro pool was not a deserving and worthy cause particularly in light of the fact that they refuse to even try to help themselves?

And again, even if the original plan of the APA was also to try to charitably help out pro pool while at the same time making some money too but they changed their mind about helping pro pool for whatever reason, so what? Who cares? It's their money. They only reason you could possibly care is if you think there should be a cap on what somebody earns or feel you should have some right to have some say so in how they spent that money. Otherwise the fact that they changed their mind, for whatever the reason, and how they choose to spend their money wouldn't be important to you. It just wouldn't. It is important to you only because you feel you should have some say so in what they earn or how they spend it. I and many others don't happen to agree with you on that belief--at all.
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Flip_dat_Quarta said:
APA League Cost Breakdown:

250,000+ Members (from APA Website)
$25 Annual Dues (from person experience)
$8 Weekly Fee (from personal experience)
$1,500,000 Annual Prize Payouts (from APA Website)

Assumptions:

150,000 members actively playing each week
30 weeks per year of league play

Rough Calcs:

250,000 members x $25 annual fee = $6,250,000
150,000 members x $8 per week x 30 weeks per year = $36,000,000
Total Revenue = $6,250,000 + $36,000,000 = 42,250,000 (42.3 Million Dollars)


Conclusion:

The APA is collecting 42.3 Million Dollars each year and only giving back 1.5 Million Dollars in annual payouts. So basically, the APA has 40.8 Million Dollars left over to pay for their annual overhead costs (operators, tournament setup, advertisement, accounting, lawyers, etc...) and collect the profit. The profit margin is sickening.

Why is it so crazy to think that the APA could expand by running a professional tour with monthly or biweekly $100,000 added tournaments?

Other factors/considerations:

1. This is only one league. There are many other leagues that make a lot of money as well.
2. These calculations are very conservative, I'm sure the actually amounts are much larger. For example, many players play on multiple teams each week.
3. The APA also receives money from sponsors. (Pool Dawg, Aramith, Action, etc...)
4. Creating a professional tour would increase league participation at the local level.
5. The amount of professional pool players would grow exponentially once the many short stops realize that there is a reason to put in the extra work to become a pro and make good money.
6. The APA would also make money on the pro tour, it wouldn't just be taking away from the league profits.
7. Televising the tour isn't even necessary, the money is already there!

THERE IS MONEY IN POOL! It's just not allocated correctly for pro's to survive...
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Please someone help!!!

SOS/SOS/SOS

I posted "ALL" of my posts in this thread related to this topic for you to see for yourself exactly what I said. I highlighted at least 2 posts that specifically state it would be "stealing" and something I was against.

But, you still persist and insists you are not mischaracterizing my statements.The content of your post above in Red is 100% a mischaracterization of my comments.

Please go back and utilize the quote or multi-quote function an site where I have said or insinuated what you are claiming? So, at this point, I am saying "Prove that is what I said, and not you mischaracterizing my statements"

Folks Sadly, we get some people that rush in and assume. I have even posted and quoted the first post of this thread to illustrate that the only person saying anything resembling taking money from the league or the league members is AZBilliards member Flip_dat_Quarta who started the thread. Everyone else is in favor of the option I mentioned of the option to "donate" if someone would like or want to, not forced to do anything!

I look forward to your response. I hope this clears the matter up? But, I thought the last written exchange would have yielded better results then the follow up I got above.

Any AZB members please chime in and shed some light on the topic. Am I crazy? Why is poolplaya not understanding? Anything I should or could do different or is he/she just trolling and know I never said those things???

KD
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Please someone help!!!

SOS/SOS/SOS

I posted "ALL" of my posts in this thread related to this topic for you to see for yourself exactly what I said. I highlighted at least 2 posts that specifically state it would be "stealing" and something I was against.

But, you still persist and insists you are not mischaracterizing my statements.The content of your post above in Red is 100% a mischaracterization of my comments.

Please go back and utilize the quote or multi-quote function an site where I have said or insinuated what you are claiming? So, at this point, I am saying "Prove that is what I said, and not you mischaracterizing my statements"

Folks Sadly, we get some people that rush in and assume. I have even posted and quoted the first post of this thread to illustrate that the only person saying anything resembling taking money from the league or the league members is AZBilliards member Flip_dat_Quarta who started the thread. Everyone else is in favor of the option I mentioned of the option to "donate" if someone would like or want to, not forced to do anything!

I look forward to your response. I hope this clears the matter up? But, I thought the last written exchange would have yielded better results then the follow up I got above.

Any AZB members please chime in and shed some light on the topic. Am I crazy? Why is poolplaya not understanding? Anything I should or could do different or is he/she just trolling and know I never said those things???

KD
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To be fair you haven't taken it nearly as far as a couple of other people but you are still worried about what the APA is or isn't doing for the game with their time and money and resources none the less. And the only possible reason for that concern is if you feel you should have some say so in what they are doing with their time and money and resources. Think about that for a bit. If you didn't feel they should have some say so in what they do with their money then what they are or aren't doing with that money wouldn't be the least bit important to you. Seriously, give that some deep thought and you will see exactly what I mean and that what I am saying is true.

You think the APA should be letting other people use their emailing list for marketing. You feel the APA should be helping Darren Appleton sell DVD's. You feel the APA should be making their member list available to people so that they can solicit donations for pro pool from their league members, or you feel that the APA itself should be soliciting donations from their members for pro pool. Plus the tone of all your posts is that the rich guy APA should be helping out the poor guy pro pool tour.

Again, if you didn't feel you should be able to have some small say so in what the APA does with their time, money, or resources you wouldn't be the least bit concerned about it. Your position would be "its their time, money and resources to do what they want with, it isn't for me to be thinking they should be doing anything else other than what they want to with it since it is theirs". But that isn't your position at all. You think you should have a small say so and that the APA should be doing this and that.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
To be fair you haven't taken it nearly as far as a couple of other people but you are still worried about what the APA is or isn't doing for the game with their time and money and resources none the less. And the only possible reason for that concern is if you feel you should have some say so in what they are doing with their time and money and resources. Think about that for a bit. If you didn't feel they should have some say so in what they do with their money then what they are or aren't doing with that money wouldn't be the least bit important to you. Seriously, give that some deep thought and you will see exactly what I mean and that what I am saying is true.

You think the APA should be letting other people use their emailing list for marketing. You feel the APA should be helping Darren Appleton sell DVD's. You feel the APA should be making their member list available to people so that they can solicit donations for pro pool from their league members, or you feel that the APA itself should be soliciting donations from their members for pro pool. Plus the tone of all your posts is that the rich guy APA should be helping out the poor guy pro pool tour.

Again, if you didn't feel you should be able to have some small say so in what the APA does with their time, money, or resources you wouldn't be the least bit concerned about it. Your position would be "its their time, money and resources to do what they want with, it isn't for me to be thinking they should be doing anything else other than what they want to with it since it is theirs". But that isn't your position at all. You think you should have a small say so and that the APA should be doing this and that.
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Add to ignore list!

Can't acknowledge when wrong!

Asked for proof and get none!
Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
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Mike...The "original mission" was an amateur handicapped league...not a pro tour. Larry & Terry, both coming from the pros, thought there "might" be a way to benefit the pros a little, but once they realized that it was still the same old 'what's in it for ME' attitude that the pros have always had, they made the correct decision to keep the focus on the amateurs. The APA has never done anything to 'hurt' pro level poolplayers. That is fantasy. The pros have to stand on their own two feet. If they are unwilling to do that, then they deserve the lack of attention and compensation they have brought on themselves. Please note that I am not putting all pros in the same basket. There are several who do a LOT to promote pool, both amateur and professional...Tony Robles certainly comes to mind.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Kid Dynomite said:
Funny how the original mission was a Pro Tour!!!

Then that went the way of the Dinosaur once the money started flowing! Sadly, these were pro level pool players "HURTING" pro level pool players and the sport that put food on the table and money in their pockets!

Go Figure!!!:(:sorry::confused:

KD
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Kid Dynomite said:
Add to ignore list!

Can't acknowledge when wrong!

Asked for proof and get none!
Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
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I just gave the proof including some examples. Are you claiming you didn't say those things? Your ability to comprehend what I wrote isn't my fault. I even acknowledged that you haven't gone as far with it as a couple of others have. But again, are you claiming you didn't say those things?
 
Poolplaya9 said:
I just gave the proof including some examples. Are you claiming you didn't say those things? Your ability to comprehend what I wrote isn't my fault. I even acknowledged that you haven't gone as far with it as a couple of others have. But again, are you claiming you didn't say those things?
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We clearly disagree! That's why I ask for other members to chime in with their opinion if it is truly what I said?

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
Scott Lee said:
Celophanewrap...Well...I guess you know something I don't. Thanks for the correction! Open mouth, insert foot! LOL :eek: :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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I wouldn't go that far. It said they had a kick off event, that may be all they had.
I remember when they announced Japan the conversation was continuous until the first Japanese team came over here to play in the National Team tournament, they announced China- and then nothing.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
We clearly disagree! That's why I ask for other members to chime in with their opinion if it is truly what I said?
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You are really disagreeing that you said those things and made those points? Really? It is all there in black and white, and people did chime in and tell you the same thing I did when you made those comments which is that the APA isn't obligated to have to want to do anything with their time, money and resources other than what they want to, even though you think they should.

Let me put it another way that maybe you will understand. We know that the APA does not want to do more to help pro pool for whatever their reasons. Do you feel that the APA should be doing more to help pro pool? A simple yes or no is all that is required. If yes, why do you feel this way?
 
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Colonel said:
Well Shawn that's interesting. As many here that know me understand I was the owner of a pretty large pool hall, bar and restaurant for quite a while, one that gross revenue exceeded 7 figures a year and having done that let me correct you on a point.

I made plenty of money on tables, not hard when you have 30 of them. But you are correct in that die hard players tend to be frugal & the majority of $ made was on social types but NOT leagues for me.

I tried leagues for a very short period of time & found them to be almost as frugal as hardcore players and far less respectful of the equipment or my establishment than hardcore players were. BTW, sold it in 2000 for far more than I had in it, not bad for a guy with no business acumen per your opinion.

Edit/PS- also for your edification the persons I sold it to ran it for a few years & then sold it to a woman who took all the big tracks out that I lovingly outfitted it with originally & loaded it with bar boxes & it became league central. It's closed now, she ran it into the ground. It's now a Goodwill store. I shake my head every time I drive by.
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Wow, good for you, that's a lot of money.
How much did you contribute to pro pool at the time you were raking in all that bank?
 
Poolplaya9 said:
You are really disagreeing that you said those things and made those points? Really? It is all there in black and white, and people did chime in and tell you the same thing I did when you made those comments which is that the APA isn't obligated to have to want to do anything with their time, money and resources other than what they want to, even though you think they should.

Let me put it another way that maybe you will understand. Do you feel that the APA should be doing more to help pro pool or not? A simple yes or no is all that is required. If yes, why do you feel this way?
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Dude enough is enough!

You are out of line!

Ask around!

Giving examples of marketing campaigns and synergies that are possible is far from "stealing" or forcing someone or league against its will!

You can't see your way out of line?


Sorry I can't help more. Its your problem not mine!

Mic drop!

Peace
Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Dude enough is enough!

You are out of line!

Ask around!

Giving examples of marketing campaigns and synergies that are possible is far from "stealing" or forcing someone or league against its will!

You can't see your way out of line?


Sorry I can't help more. Its your problem not mine!

Mic drop!

Peace
Kd
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Do you feel the APA should be doing more to help pro pool or not? It is a simple yes or no question.
 
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