APA equipment really puts the "Amature" in APA

[KMRUNOUT]

KMRUNOUT,

This Is My Take On This.......

If You Can't Adjust To Different Conditions, Don't Play In Traveling Leagues, Different Poolrooms, Or National Events.

The Green Dot Is The Best Cueball That Works Properly In A Valley Barbox.

What I'm Surprised By Most........ Is That It Was Some Of The Worst Cloth, And Cloth Installation That I Have Seen, And You're Worried About The CB.

What S/L Are You?

Fast n Loose,

You seem to be stuck like a lot of other posters on the concept the I can't adjust to the conditions. I played ok out there. Not my best, but I didn't lose any of the team matches.

However, one of the principle benefits of being a human, as opposed to a lower life form, is that we can adapt the conditions to us. In the winter we can make fire, in the summer, we have ac. These amazing capabilities also offer us the ability to engineer a pool table that uses a standard cue ball. Likewise, on tables with ball return doors that are open, we can use any cueball we want. Given all this fantastic capability, why should we need to play with a less than ideal cue ball?

Every pool room I have ever gone to uses a standard cue ball. Almost all use Simonis cloth. I have never seen any serious tournament in my area on conditions other than these. However, as I've said many many times in this thread, I believe the cue ball has a more fundamental impact on the way the game is played than the cloth, pockets, humidity, climate, or any of the other variables. I found a display table for Lucasi cues out in Vegas. It was the identical table to the ones the APA used except it had a red circle aramith cue ball. It played fine. No complains. Of course I would prefer Simonis cloth, but the cloth they had was adequate, given the right cue ball.

The APA can organize the tournament room any way they like, which means they can have a hand stamp access to the practice tables which they sell at the gate, and leave the ball return doors open, and use a good cueball. This means that under these condtions, the green logo aramith is NOT the best ball. Not by a mile. The issue is that they chose NOT to organize it this way. They could have, but they didn't. I would love to hear an argument for why not that holds an ounce of water. Profits? No, they charge at the gate. Theft? No, the green logo ball costs more and is just as stealable if you want to. I think the only argument they can make is "don't care". That, for me, is a let down.

KMRUNOUT

EDIT: By the way, you asked my S/L. 7 in 8 ball, 9 in 9 ball.
Also curious, Isn't It A Lot More Effort To Type Like This? Why do you do that?
Oh, and fantastic avatar by the way!!

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I do not believe that the green logo valley ball is any heavier then the object balls. It will roll much better then the catseye magnetic ball that they use to use. Yes the APA did use the Diamond tables for a few years while the BCA & VNEA still used the Valleys. Now it has flip flopped.
The green logo ball is way better then the off center plug balls they tried a few years back before the diamond tables came out.

Actually, funny you should mention this. I think it is a toss up there. I find that the plug ball actually plays better in some respects. It certainly doesn't roll as true at soft speeds, but the way it rotates and the feel of the ball is almost better, IMHO.

I think the issue is that the technique for creating the green logo ball results in a disproportionate amount of mass at the ball's surface. This will change the characteristics with which it spins and changes direction off the rails. Perhaps those with a better grasp of physics can sound off here.

KMRUNOUT

 

[AuntyDan]

Every pool room I have ever gone to uses a standard cue ball. Almost all use Simonis cloth.

I'd say only 50% of the Pool rooms I've been to have "good" equipment; clean and resonably new object balls, cue balls and cloth, level tables with resonably tight pockets and resonably responsive rails. The other 50% fail to meet some or all of these requirements. In terms of bars rather than Pool halls I'd say the percentage is probably 25% or less. This is also the reason the good folks at Diamond will never get a high level of penetration into the bar market. There are simply not enough bar owners who want to spend more than the absolute bare minimum on Pool.

The APA can organize the tournament room any way they like, which means they can have a hand stamp access to the practice tables which they sell at the gate

Of course they could do that if they wanted to. However it would require staff to run it, which cost money and add complexity to their organization. Were they using regular bar tables you had to put money in every time you want to get the balls out? Perhaps they think they make more money overall that way. After all everytime an 8 or 9 goes on the break you have to put the money in again.

Profits? No, they charge at the gate.

So were the tables set to free play or not? If not I can't see any reason they didn't use a standard cue ball, other than the argument that the APA is primarily a bar table league and the average bar table player is used to using some kind of non-standard cue ball.

Also curious, Isn't It A Lot More Effort To Type Like This? Why do you do that?

I've ALWAYS wanted to know this myself!

 

[AuntyDan]

They were the ones taking the big j-hooks

I've seen this term a couple of times and am not familiar with it. What is a "j-hook"?

and "falling" sideways when nearly stopped.

I've (and I'd gues most players also have) seen this happen on perfectly level tables with clean, good quality cloth and balls, although it is the exception rather than the rule on such equipment. It only take the smallest imperfection when a sphere is rolling very slowly to divert it's path.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Aunty Dan,

First, my simple description of a j-hook is; when the cue ball slows down near the end of it's travel and suddenly rolls left or right half a rotation. You normally don't complain because it may be harmless. On the other hand, if you're trying for position in close quarters, the cue ball sometimes winds up behind or partially behind a ball it has no reason to be near. Perhaps I erred in position? Nah. Perhaps I could have chosen a different route? Nah. Plain and simple the cue ball executed a turn because the weight is off or off center.

I have also seen the cue ball rock into a dimple in the cloth or spot. Small bits of chalk also cause this.

Why doesn't the APA have better equipment for Vegas? They don't care about the playing conditions? Why don't they have open tables? The table supplier for the tournament may have a contract with the APA, Valley and ACS to keep the tables closed. The tables and lights may be supplied free of charge to the sanctioning body in return for a very high percentage (if not all) of the income from the dollar a game charge. Sometime sit down and calculate the income from six thousand people playing at a dollar a game for a week and a half on two hundred plus tables. Its the money:banghead: .

Lyn

 

[hustler]

KM,
When I went to Vegas several years ago , when the Diamond tables were being used by the APA, that was the first time I aactually ever played on barbox conditions that good, and I have played plenty of small bar table tournaments prior. The conditions actually exceeded my expectations - I have always just felt that it just goes with the territory that playing on crappy bar tables with crappy cue balls is the status quo. Ive always felt it's just a part of playing bar table pool that you have to deal with subpar conditions (and the patrons and house rules)- thats what is expected. Maybe you havent been around bar table tournaments enough to expect this? But you bring up great points - it doesn't have to be that way out there with the APA. Thanks.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

So were the tables set to free play or not? If not I can't see any reason they didn't use a standard cue ball, other than the argument that the APA is primarily a bar table league and the average bar table player is used to using some kind of non-standard cue ball.

AuntyDan,

No. They were set up to charge $1 coin per game. On the rare occasion the 8 goes on the break, they just earned another $1. However in 9 ball you can just use the 10 ball, etc. Still, if they charged $10 or so for a day pass, I bet they could make just as much money. This was only in the mini-mania/masters tournament room. The team area had the tables opened. Also, they could just charge a higher entry fee for the mini tourneys.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

KM,
When I went to Vegas several years ago , when the Diamond tables were being used by the APA, that was the first time I aactually ever played on barbox conditions that good, and I have played plenty of small bar table tournaments prior. The conditions actually exceeded my expectations - I have always just felt that it just goes with the territory that playing on crappy bar tables with crappy cue balls is the status quo. Ive always felt it's just a part of playing bar table pool that you have to deal with subpar conditions (and the patrons and house rules)- thats what is expected. Maybe you havent been around bar table tournaments enough to expect this? But you bring up great points - it doesn't have to be that way out there with the APA. Thanks.

Well, you seemed to see the central point to my post. The Diamonds are really excellent. I wish people were more interested generally in excellence. Maybe Diamond and the APA will cross paths again. I can only hope.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Cornerman]

So there you go, the people that make the ball say it may behave differently.

They were only appeasing you. Of course it behaves differently, but I was focusing on the fact that you said it was heavier (and by inferrence, behaves heavy). It doesn't. Period.

Does it behave differently? Only in that it's more susceptible to scratches and picking up chalk. There's more difference in playing with a Red Circle Aramith vs. a Red Circle imposter. In other words, there's not a whole hell of a lot. Yes, there's a difference, but of all the things to consider complaining about, the use of the Green Aramith Logo cueball is not one of them, IMO. That decision should be praised considering they use Valley Tables.

Maybe the complaint should be about the tables, but in broad generalities, the table play in Vegas on Valleys is also like a dream come true for many bar table players. ANd guess what? MUch of that is due to the fact that they get to use the best magnetic-influenced bar table cueball in existence.

What IMO you fail to understand or are confused about was when this Aramith Green Logo came out, it was (and still is) a dream come true for millions of bar table players. A dream come true, and that's no exaggeration. Did you not realize how bad things were prior to the Aramith Green Logo? If not, please see my post on the retrospective on cueballs.

So, you're complaints are what's confusing.

. My concern was not specifically with the weight of the ball but rather how it reacts off the rails and how it plays. Try setting up some shots with a standard cue ball and the Green Logo Aramith and see if that helps eliminate some confusion. (Straight in draw shots will not be a good test.)

I think this statement completely validates what others are saying about your complaints: adjust to the conditions. I don't say this lightly. It's not like they gave you the Dynamo Red Dot or the Universal B Metal flake ball. They gave you a ball that rolls straight (unlike the Cage Ball with its J-Hooks) and weighs within anyone's reasonable specification. So, it sounds like you're complaining about non-issues.

It's not like the air-conditioning was turned off, which is more of a detriment to the game than using a Green Aramith Logo cueball will ever be.

In other words, for as strong as your initial post's are sounding against this wonderful cueball, you're not going to get a lot of agreement. You're making it sound like the conditions were "crappy" and the cueball was "heavy." Neither of those adjectives have been echoed by anyone else that was there. You want crappy and heavy to compare to? Come to the local VFW with it's threadbare, water-stained cloth, sharp metal pocket corners, and lumbering boulders for cueballs. That's what most people reading your post think is going on. And it's not.

Here's what you said"

The game of pool is meant to be played with a cue ball that is the same size, weight, and consistency (meaning the mass is distributed evenly so it rolls correctly) as the other balls. A situation that does not conform to this standard is a spin-off game from pool, not pool.

You are implying and really almost being very explicit that these balls don't weigh the same and the mass isn't evenly distributed so it rolls correctly as the other balls. But, they are the same weight, and they do roll correctly because the mass is distributed correctly. That's what's great about the Aramith Green Logo!! You also say you don't mind the Red Circle, yet that one isn't the same as any of the other cueballs. It bounces more, due to it's carom resin. It sounds like by your logic, using the Red Circle isn't really pool either.

Every pool room I have ever gone to uses a standard cue ball. Almost all use Simonis cloth. I have never seen any serious tournament in my area on conditions other than these.

Maybe this is the root of your complaint. You're spoiled. And I mean that in a good cheery way. It almost sounds like you didn't have the pleasure of growing up in and around pool halls and bars with no lighting, scarred and broken balls, no food, no air conditions, smoke stained ceilings, and heavy napped cloth. They still exist today. And economics necessitates the use of non-Simonis, non-Centennial balls, and non-Diamond tables. We can't all have the luxury of playing on the best equipment. Bar table tournaments around a bunch of drunks and using the oversized ball, the plug ball, the flake ball. That's standard fare for many of us growing up. I think you need to keep that in perspective.

And bear in mind that the Aramith Green Logo is the best bar table cueball out there. I'm still boggled at anyone complaining about them.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

I've seen this term a couple of times and am not familiar with it. What is a "j-hook"?

The curving action of the cueball specific to the cueballs that had a metal insert cast into them is accentuated on new clean cloth, especiallly when they made the metal cage insert ball ( see: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1053338&postcount=1 Method 3: Magnetic Personality ).

The metal insert is a heavy gauge spring. And, as such, the spring isn't round so there is a balance issue although the weight is within specificaitons. So, with clean new cloth in particular, the cueball is always subject to hook it's path as it slows down depending on what orientation that spring is. J-hooks and S-hooks are the common terms.

I took a photo of one of these balls cracked open. It's interesting. The photo is floating around on the internet somewhere.

Prior to the Aramith Green Logo ball, this Metal Cage Insert Ball was the best bar table cue ball out there and was used at the National Amateur Events for several years.

Fred

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Fast n Loose,

You seem to be stuck like a lot of other posters on the concept the I can't adjust to the conditions. I played ok out there. Not my best, but I didn't lose any of the team matches.

However, one of the principle benefits of being a human, as opposed to a lower life form, is that we can adapt the conditions to us. In the winter we can make fire, in the summer, we have ac. These amazing capabilities also offer us the ability to engineer a pool table that uses a standard cue ball. Likewise, on tables with ball return doors that are open, we can use any cueball we want. Given all this fantastic capability, why should we need to play with a less than ideal cue ball?

Every pool room I have ever gone to uses a standard cue ball. Almost all use Simonis cloth. I have never seen any serious tournament in my area on conditions other than these. However, as I've said many many times in this thread, I believe the cue ball has a more fundamental impact on the way the game is played than the cloth, pockets, humidity, climate, or any of the other variables. I found a display table for Lucasi cues out in Vegas. It was the identical table to the ones the APA used except it had a red circle aramith cue ball. It played fine. No complains. Of course I would prefer Simonis cloth, but the cloth they had was adequate, given the right cue ball.

The APA can organize the tournament room any way they like, which means they can have a hand stamp access to the practice tables which they sell at the gate, and leave the ball return doors open, and use a good cueball. This means that under these condtions, the green logo aramith is NOT the best ball. Not by a mile. The issue is that they chose NOT to organize it this way. They could have, but they didn't. I would love to hear an argument for why not that holds an ounce of water. Profits? No, they charge at the gate. Theft? No, the green logo ball costs more and is just as stealable if you want to. I think the only argument they can make is "don't care". That, for me, is a let down.

KMRUNOUT

EDIT: By the way, you asked my S/L. 7 in 8 ball, 9 in 9 ball.
Also curious, Isn't It A Lot More Effort To Type Like This? Why do you do that?
Oh, and fantastic avatar by the way!!

I TYPE IN ALL CAPS....SOMETIMES THE SYSTEM REMOVES THAT AND IT'S ENDS UP ONLY THE FIRST LETTER IS IN CAPS......

NOT ALL THE TABLES WERE OPEN. IN THE MINI-MANIA ROOM, YOU PAY FOR THE TABLES, AND I AGREE WITH THE APA THAT ALL THE TABLES NEED TO USE THE SAME STUFF. THE GREEN LOGO BALL IS THE BEST USING A STANDARD BARBOX, AND BECAUSE THAT ROOM DIDN'T HAVE OPEN BALL RETURNS, THEY COULDN'T PUT RED DOTS ON ALL OF THEM.

EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT PREFERENCE. THE GUYS IN MY POOLROOM INSIST ON BLUE CIRCLE CUE BALLS. AND I'VE PLAYED IN ALOT OF BARS, AND HAVE NEVER SEEN A RED-CIRCLE CUEBALL AS THE STANDARD IN ANY OF THEM. THE APA IS A "BAR" LEAGUE IN MY OPINION. THE USE OF THE GREEN CIRCLE MAKES TOTAL SENSE TO ME. TO BE HONEST, THE GREEN BALL IS BETTER THAN WHAT 70% OF THE APA PLAYERS ARE USED TO. LOTS OF BARS STILL HAVE THE "BIG BALL" I ACTUALLY TALKED TO A TEAM THAT WAS COMPLAINING BECAUSE IT WASN'T AN OVERSIZED BALL.

IF YOU RAN A BUSINESS LIKE THE APA, AND YOU WERE GIVEN A TYPE OF BALL TO USE FOR FREE, OR HAD TO PAY FOR A DIFFERENT ONE, I HAVE A FEELING YOU WOULD USE THE FREE ONE AS WELL. I KNOW I WOULD.

I ASKED YOU S/L FOR A REASON OTHER THAN WHAT YOU'RE THINKING...... I'M NOT DOUBTING YOUR ABILITIES.

AS AN S/L 7 IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON FROM THE APA, OR REALIZE THAT IT ISN'T A PRO TOURNAMENT, NOR WILL THE CONDITIONS REFLECT THAT. JOIN THE BCA, OR YOUR LOCAL 9 BALL TOUR, AND PLAY ON THE CONDITIONS YOU EXPECT. THE APA IS DESIGNED TO CHASE GUYS LIKE YOU OUT. (NOT A SHOT AT YOU, A STATEMENT ABOUT HIGH SL PLAYERS IN GENERAL)

 

[crawfish]

I TYPE IN ALL CAPS....SOMETIMES THE SYSTEM REMOVES THAT AND IT'S ENDS UP ONLY THE FIRST LETTER IS IN CAPS......

NOT ALL THE TABLES WERE OPEN. IN THE MINI-MANIA ROOM, YOU PAY FOR THE TABLES, AND I AGREE WITH THE APA THAT ALL THE TABLES NEED TO USE THE SAME STUFF. THE GREEN LOGO BALL IS THE BEST USING A STANDARD BARBOX, AND BECAUSE THAT ROOM DIDN'T HAVE OPEN BALL RETURNS, THEY COULDN'T PUT RED DOTS ON ALL OF THEM.

EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT PREFERENCE. THE GUYS IN MY POOLROOM INSIST ON BLUE CIRCLE CUE BALLS. AND I'VE PLAYED IN ALOT OF BARS, AND HAVE NEVER SEEN A RED-CIRCLE CUEBALL AS THE STANDARD IN ANY OF THEM. THE APA IS A "BAR" LEAGUE IN MY OPINION. THE USE OF THE GREEN CIRCLE MAKES TOTAL SENSE TO ME. TO BE HONEST, THE GREEN BALL IS BETTER THAN WHAT 70% OF THE APA PLAYERS ARE USED TO. LOTS OF BARS STILL HAVE THE "BIG BALL" I ACTUALLY TALKED TO A TEAM THAT WAS COMPLAINING BECAUSE IT WASN'T AN OVERSIZED BALL.

IF YOU RAN A BUSINESS LIKE THE APA, AND YOU WERE GIVEN A TYPE OF BALL TO USE FOR FREE, OR HAD TO PAY FOR A DIFFERENT ONE, I HAVE A FEELING YOU WOULD USE THE FREE ONE AS WELL. I KNOW I WOULD.

I ASKED YOU S/L FOR A REASON OTHER THAN WHAT YOU'RE THINKING...... I'M NOT DOUBTING YOUR ABILITIES.

AS AN S/L 7 IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON FROM THE APA, OR REALIZE THAT IT ISN'T A PRO TOURNAMENT, NOR WILL THE CONDITIONS REFLECT THAT. JOIN THE BCA, OR YOUR LOCAL 9 BALL TOUR, AND PLAY ON THE CONDITIONS YOU EXPECT. THE APA IS DESIGNED TO CHASE GUYS LIKE YOU OUT. (NOT A SHOT AT YOU, A STATEMENT ABOUT HIGH SL PLAYERS IN GENERAL)

You know, I follow your posts just to get a glimpse of Keyra's a$$ and Megan. Wow, they could sure trap me.

 

[Cornerman]

You know, I follow your posts just to get a glimpse of Keyra's a$$ and Megan. Wow, they could sure trap me.

IMHO, Mega Fox is the hottest young actress out there currently.

Fred <~~~ needs to see her away from that loser from 90210

 

[KMRUNOUT]

They were only appeasing you. Of course it behaves differently

So...which are you saying? They were only appeasing me or it behaves differently? I don't know why you would assume they were saying something other than their opinion of their own product?

but I was focusing on the fact that you said it was heavier (and by inferrence, behaves heavy). It doesn't. Period.

I guess I could re-read my post...but I do not think that it is a fact that I ever said the green logo was heavier. I think I said it behaves as if it were heavier--perhaps you decided to infer that I meant I thought it was heavier? I think it weighs what it is supposed to weight. Probably right around 6 oz.

Does it behave differently? Only in that it's more susceptible to scratches and picking up chalk. There's more difference in playing with a Red Circle Aramith vs. a Red Circle imposter. In other words, there's not a whole hell of a lot. Yes, there's a difference, but of all the things to consider complaining about, the use of the Green Aramith Logo cueball is not one of them, IMO. That decision should be praised considering they use Valley Tables.

So again, are you saying there is or is not a difference? I certainly perceived a difference in the way it played. As I explained, I got to try the exact same table with a red circle aramith, and it played considerably different. Was I imagining this? Power of suggestion perhaps? I could feel the difference. Period.

Maybe the complaint should be about the tables

No, it should be about the cueball in my opinion. The tables were adequate, assuming a good cueball was used. I'm not saying the green logo is horrible, I'm just not even considering the over size/overweight balls. In comparison to those it is a dream come true.

What IMO you fail to understand or are confused about was when this Aramith Green Logo came out, it was (and still is) a dream come true for millions of bar table players.

What makes you say this? Actually, I remember learning about the green logo ball before it came out. At the time, I thought it was the best thing I ever heard. I was just learning the differences between balls, and learning that I hated the crap in most bars. I was very excited about it. No confusion there. However, just because it is wonderful for millions of people does not make it the best option. There are better options. Millions of people are very satisfied with Budweiser, but that doesn't make it a great beer. It makes it a popular beer. The same could be said for all kinds of pop music. I guess we tread dangerously close to a philosophical discussion here. :smile:

Did you not realize how bad things were prior to the Aramith Green Logo? If not, please see my post on the retrospective on cueballs.

Yup, sure did.

So, you're complaints are what's confusing.

Hmm...I wasn't crazy about the way the cueball played. I think the APA could have done better. That seems fairly straightforward.

I think this statement completely validates what others are saying about your complaints: adjust to the conditions. I don't say this lightly. It's not like they gave you the Dynamo Red Dot or the Universal B Metal flake ball. They gave you a ball that rolls straight (unlike the Cage Ball with its J-Hooks) and weighs within anyone's reasonable specification. So, it sounds like you're complaining about non-issues.

Fred, it sounds like you simply do not perceive a difference between the green logo aramith ball on a valley table set up with their teflon cloth, and a regular cueball on the same setup. If you don't feel the difference, thats ok. It actually works out better for the APA, since you are going to be easier to please with their equipment selection. I am, however, confused as to whether you are telling me that I don't in fact perceive a difference, or that I should not care about it.

It's not like the air-conditioning was turned off, which is more of a detriment to the game than using a Green Aramith Logo cueball will ever be.

I totally agree with you. However it is hard to believe the average league player being any more aware of this difference than the cue ball. Personally I would take not A/C (especially in bone dry Vegas) and the cue ball I like :grin:

In other words, for as strong as your initial post's are sounding against this wonderful cueball, you're not going to get a lot of agreement.

Well, I guess this claim could be verified by reviewing this thread and counting up the posters for/against my initial statements. I am sure there have been plenty of each.

You're making it sound like the conditions were "crappy" and the cueball was "heavy." Neither of those adjectives have been echoed by anyone else that was there.

The conditions were below my expectations, primarily due to the cue ball. As for the echos, please review this thread. There are many posts indicating they agree with what I say. In fact, I specifically recall one by John Barton specifically saying that the green logo cue ball didn't play properly. I'm at work, but it would be fun to copy all the posts here that agreed with me.

You want crappy and heavy to compare to? Come to the local VFW with it's threadbare, water-stained cloth, sharp metal pocket corners, and lumbering boulders for cueballs.

Ha ha...no one is paying me to go there, so I will take a pass. Sound pretty terrible.

You are implying and really almost being very explicit that these balls don't weigh the same and the mass isn't evenly distributed so it rolls correctly as the other balls. But, they are the same weight, and they do roll correctly because the mass is distributed correctly. That's what's great about the Aramith Green Logo!!

I guess my advice is to read a little more carefully. I explicitly said that they do weigh the same, so there must be some other explanation for why it plays differenetly. I suggested as a possibility that the density is not uniform from the center to the surface of the ball. When you read my phrase "doesn't roll properly" you decided that meant "doesn't roll straight." On the contrary. I think that the mass is definitely even in that it is concentric (or whatever the term is with a sphere.) Meaning that if you pick a spot inside the ball a certain distance from the center, it will weigh the same as any other spot that same distance from center. I am proposing that it might be the case that if you pick two spots two different distances from the center, the density might be different. If a higher percentage of the balls mass is in the surface of the ball, it might behave differently than if the mass were even from center to surface. Perhaps I did not articulate that clearly enough in my previous post.

You also say you don't mind the Red Circle, yet that one isn't the same as any of the other cueballs. It bounces more, due to it's carom resin. It sounds like by your logic, using the Red Circle isn't really pool either.

Interesting...I didn't know that. I do think the Red circle is a little different than say a Blue Circle centennial. I guess that explains it. Still, I feel that difference is less than between a blue circle and the green logo. IMHO of course.

Maybe this is the root of your complaint. You're spoiled. And I mean that in a good cheery way. It almost sounds like you didn't have the pleasure of growing up in and around pool halls and bars with no lighting, scarred and broken balls, no food, no air conditions, smoke stained ceilings, and heavy napped cloth. They still exist today. And economics necessitates the use of non-Simonis, non-Centennial balls, and non-Diamond tables. We can't all have the luxury of playing on the best equipment. Bar table tournaments around a bunch of drunks and using the oversized ball, the plug ball, the flake ball. That's standard fare for many of us growing up. I think you need to keep that in perspective.

True true. We as humans used to beat each other with clubs at one time before we had these forums on which to trade ideas. Ideally, we continue to evolve. I am basically advocating following that trend with respect to the cueball and the APA. The fact that conditions are or were ever one way or another only serves to help make my point that it sure would be nice if they were better. Again, I prefer better to worse.

And bear in mind that the Aramith Green Logo is the best bar table cueball out there. I'm still boggled at anyone complaining about them.

Clearly there are people that have an issue with them. They are certainly the best bar table cue ball, but not by much. I kinda like the way the plug ball works believe it or not. While it does not roll right, it feels a little better. Maybe its the surface or something. I guess if I had to choose I would take the green logo ball. I think I have been about 800% clear on what specific issues I have. I am still boggled that people who have read this entire thread still belabor the issues that have been addressed many times. At least you didn't say "you got beat so deal with it".

I really appreciate the comments. I truly enjoy trying to clarify ideas and reach the point where everyone understands what everyone else is talking about. So thanks for that opportunity!!

KMRUNOUT

 

[mreightball]

IMHO, Mega Fox is the hottest young actress out there currently.

Fred <~~~ needs to see her away from that loser from 90210

I was wondering what the reason for good pool players to play in handicap leagues where they get no return or a minimal return on their money spent. With just a promise to go to Vegas.
Our Local League last season had 18 teams
153 shooters x $10 = $1530
Collected $11200 from $5 per player per night for season (once a week)
Had 35 8 ball break payouts at $10 =$350
Had 86 Run table payouts at $20 = $1720
Had 27 Run table payouts at $30 = $810
Payouts for 1 place down 1-$2000 2-$1575 3-$1400 4-$ 1300 5-$1025
6- $1025 all the way down to 18th place $225
For a total of $13225
Now to me that is the kind of a League I like to play in and not for just a promise to go somewhere.
This season we have 24 teams playing so the pot will be bigger.
I also run a similar League on Tuesday Night
I would like to hear some of your opinions on the leagues where you get no return on your money
Thanks

 

[Cornerman]

At least you didn't say "you got beat so deal with it".

I have a standard answer to people who might suggest that "everyone has to play the same conditions." In a nutshell, I didn't put the effort into this game trying to be the best I can be just to attempt to play the game on crappy equipment. Crappy equipment doesn't hurt bad players since they were going to suck no matter what.

The issue here might be where we draw the line on what crappy equipment is and where do we expect any high level tournament to be in those terms.

From your point of view, the green Aramith balls whether it's their surface hardness, the moment of inertia, or the way they smell is over the crappy line and that you'd expect at this point that since there is a decidely better system (i.e., the Diamond Smart Table system), then that should be what we expect at any National tournament.

I can understand your point. I just wanted to convey that from my point of view, when the last time the green Aramith ball was at the BCA Nationals on Valley tables, I would have consider it as good a bar table condition as I could have asked for. And, my local bars that I go to, they both have the reputation deservedly so to have the best conditions of any bar (in our area). And they use Valleys or Dynamos with the green Aramith cueball.

So, would I rather see all Diamond Smart Tables everywhere? Absolutely? Did the APA go with less than the best? Yes, and you have a very valid point about that. But did they go with crap instead? Not by a long shot.

But, that's my point of view.

Fred

 

[Meezer Girl]

kmrunout & mreightball

kmrunout:

I have one point that I don't remember seeing in this thread.

My biggest issue about the equipment changes at Nationals made by the APA is what seems to be their final arrival at using the bar box cue ball with professional type (fast) cloth.

My first trip was in 1997 and I think I remember bar cloth (thick & slow) with bar cue balls. That is probably what the vast majornity of APA players are used to (as already stated in the thread). Then I seem to remember they moved on to a faster cloth (Champion ?? Championship??) with the red circle - still fine. Next thing they started this bar cue ball with the fast cloth.

That totally left me shaking my head - why use a professional type cloth with an amateur type cue ball??

To me - fast cloth needs a good quality resin cue ball and the bar box cloth can get along with bar box cue balls - but I do also prefer the red circle on bar cloth.

It seems to me that with a tournament of this size they should be able to dictate to the suppliers what they want (red circles). I don't fall one minute for the "people steal them" excuse. I do remember a time (maybe a Southwest Challenge or a Singles event) where you were given your scoresheet and the red circle to start your match and had to return both to the desk when your match was over.

mreightball:

I am with you. I play 5 night a week and 4 of them are "money" leagues. I run 2 of them. One is a "bar room" 8 ball league. My other league has been around since long before the APA was formed. I was able to get it converted from "bar room" 8 ball to BIH about 5 years ago. We play what we consider "full" ball in hand (not APA wanna be BIH) and I have some very serious players - I love the competition.

There is no contest - like you said everybody gets money. With 270,000 or so APA members, what is really the odds of your team making it to Vegas or making it past 3 or 4 rounds to just collect chump change because half of your team thinks Vegas is "party time" and don't focus on why you are there in the first place ???!!!

I do play 1 night of APA. Double Jeopardy where we play both an 8 ball match & a 9 ball match. That way I am eligble to try to qualify for Singles Nationals in both formats (personal goal - made it there once and want to go back and do a better job)

I do believe, for the overall good of the sport, that there is room for every format of play - people of different skill levels need to have choices of where they want to go with their game.

I absolutely realize that the APA is a FOR PROFIT BUSINESS (for them) but my biggest gripe with them is their "attitude" that there is no place for anybody else, seems like they think they invented pool, invented leagues or invented handicapping (how long has 9 ball been handicapped by balls and/or games ??!!!! If you question anything they do they react like you "shot the Pope" or something !!!!

Fran

 

[JDB]

kmrunout:

It seems to me that with a tournament of this size they should be able to dictate to the suppliers what they want (red circles).

I agree with you; however, there is a lot of merit in the argument that there are probably a lot of APA players that would not want the red circle cue ball.

As an example, I carry a red circle cue ball in my case in the event I go to a pool hall that does not have them as the standard and I get stuck with something else. Therefore, I am able to change to the cue ball I prefer.

However, I tried to introduce this to my team and our opponent one night because the tables are open and everyone (except me, of course), wanted to use the bar cue ball instead of the red circle cue ball. This wasn't even the green aramath cue ball, this was a much heavier cue ball, but not an oversized ball.

I was floored that they wanted to use the standard cueball; however that is what they were used to so that is what they wanted to use.

This is obviously a very small sample since it only consisted to two teams; however, I am pretty sure I would get a consistent answer across the entire APA region that I play based on some conversations that I have had.

I would definitely prefer to play on the best equipment, which IMO is red circle cue ball, simonis cloth and diamond tables; however, I don't think the average APA pool player would agree.

 

[Meezer Girl]

Jdb

I am lucky that in my area most (if not all) APA teams prefer the red circle. Many bars keep a supply of them in a drawer to be used on league nights.

If APA, for whatever reason, won't use them at National events then I wish they would just go back to bar cloth.

Fran

 

[mreightball]

I am lucky that in my area most (if not all) APA teams prefer the red circle. Many bars keep a supply of them in a drawer to be used on league nights.

If APA, for whatever reason, won't use them at National events then I wish they would just go back to bar cloth.

Fran

It doesn't much matter what felt is on the table. When you use a heavier ball than the ball your hitting you will never get the same angles off the object ball as you would get with a ball that weighs the same. Also you have to hit the cue ball a lot lower to even stop the cue from rolling forward. It makes you have to totally rethink your shot every time you go to shoot. Also if you are playing with a larger ball your contact point is not the same because of the two different size balls.