APA League Play - What's Your Opinion?
- Thread starter kmg
- Start date
Honestly, the prizes aren't great considering the commitment to play the entire year and weekly dues. I am a league player myself.
Our area has hundreds of APA players who regularly play and drink and eat and generally fund the pool room. They are great for business.
The APA hinders high level pool play. It rewards players for not getting better by giving them an easier handicap.
Our area has hundreds of APA players who regularly play and drink and eat and generally fund the pool room. They are great for business.
The APA hinders high level pool play. It rewards players for not getting better by giving them an easier handicap.
I always enjoyed it. I think if you get to concerned about winning, getting to Vegas, etc. it can lose its luster quickly.kmg said:
What I enjoy a lot is APA 9-ball. It is more like a real team sport than 8-ball. In 8-ball if you lose you make no contribution to your team, but in APA 9-ball you still can lose and make a contribution to the team depending upon how you do relative to your opponent.
So people think that the no-call rule is a problem, but I don't. It is very rarely a factor in an individual game and more rarely in a match. A good player is still going to play correctly regardless of this rule. A ball-banger will get lucky once in a while from it, but more often than not sending the balls flying will hurt him not his opponent.
IMO it lends itself to sandbagging. In our league the players have it down to a science. It is also very subjective. I could be a SL7 in one league and a SL4 in another due to the strength of the players. I can't tell you how many times I've played in an APA tournament where I've had to spot someone games and they actually played better than me. I am NOT an APA fan.
iba7467 said:
Exactly, perfectly put. I play on 3 APA teams, I don't drink or eat at the bars. I pay out of my ass for my Wife and I weekly and yearly. Unless you win the trip to vegas, do not expect to get even 40% of your money back.
Its the cheaters league, and don't be surprised if the same team(s) get to go to vegas every year in your division.
If you want to win in the APA, get very commited players who want to win and will do 'anything' to win. Commited meaning - players who want to show up from 7 till whenever 80% of the time. Have no problems giving up 3-4 weekends a year.
If you want to just have fun, then the APA is great for ball bangers who fund the vegas trips.
iba7467 said:
That is the only real critisism I would make of it, but when you get right down to it every handicap system has flaws and people to take advantage of it. If a player approaches it as a fun night out, it will be that. If a player is consumed with getting to Vegas, they probably won't enjoy themselves unless they do.
I wish I had a team to play on, but I'm a 6 and don't want to start my own team. Nobody wants another 6, they want lower handicaps.
I have been in league 3 years now. My team is consistently first place during the session. My skill level is rapidly increasing, I stake some serious players and am serious about playing myself. I try to take players that are a serious about improving as myself.
Essentially, you join my team. Learn to play at least 2 balls better. Within a year-and-a-half, the team has to split ranked too high to play. By the time $$ tourneys come around, despite playing great and always getting better none of my players can win because: 1. They are ranked what they should be by playing hard all year. 2. They have moved into new skill levels as the year progresses. 3. Sandbaggers.
Essentially, you join my team. Learn to play at least 2 balls better. Within a year-and-a-half, the team has to split ranked too high to play. By the time $$ tourneys come around, despite playing great and always getting better none of my players can win because: 1. They are ranked what they should be by playing hard all year. 2. They have moved into new skill levels as the year progresses. 3. Sandbaggers.
I enjoy it..
I like the league play. It is clean, simple fun. Most money players don't care for it a lot, but there are still several who play in the leagues.
If you want to win money, it is not the ticket. I have been to Vegas 4 times in the last 6 years. In the National Qualifiers, you win $5000 for a team of 8 to go to Vegas....about all it pays is the ticket and a couple of nights at a decent hotel. The best any team I have been on has done so far is 9-16, so we didn't win a ton of money there, but it was a real blast.
Sandbagging is as big an issue in league play as in money play. Money players often try to get a big enough spot that they have won the money before the first ball is broke. It is the same in leagues. Many people will try to keep their skill level down...I don't care for that, but it is the game.
I prefer APA 8-ball to APA 9-ball, because 9-ball is actually rotation with 10 points available per rack. It is good for your position play, though.
All in all, though, I have a lot of fun. If that is what you are looking for, it is a good place to be.
Joe
I like the league play. It is clean, simple fun. Most money players don't care for it a lot, but there are still several who play in the leagues.
If you want to win money, it is not the ticket. I have been to Vegas 4 times in the last 6 years. In the National Qualifiers, you win $5000 for a team of 8 to go to Vegas....about all it pays is the ticket and a couple of nights at a decent hotel. The best any team I have been on has done so far is 9-16, so we didn't win a ton of money there, but it was a real blast.
Sandbagging is as big an issue in league play as in money play. Money players often try to get a big enough spot that they have won the money before the first ball is broke. It is the same in leagues. Many people will try to keep their skill level down...I don't care for that, but it is the game.
I prefer APA 8-ball to APA 9-ball, because 9-ball is actually rotation with 10 points available per rack. It is good for your position play, though.
All in all, though, I have a lot of fun. If that is what you are looking for, it is a good place to be.
Joe
Cheap skates
Our league director only pays out $3500 per team. Figure $40/weekly dues x 48 weeks = 1440. Figuring 4 hours per week (192 hours) and at least one entire weekend (18 hours). Means even if you won you earned $9.80 an hour less gas, food, and expenses.
I play league, I like the competition and comraderie. That's why leagues are worthwhile.
Bamacues said:
Our league director only pays out $3500 per team. Figure $40/weekly dues x 48 weeks = 1440. Figuring 4 hours per week (192 hours) and at least one entire weekend (18 hours). Means even if you won you earned $9.80 an hour less gas, food, and expenses.
I play league, I like the competition and comraderie. That's why leagues are worthwhile.
I really enjoy it a lot and has improved my game immensely. But I can tell u that a league operator plays a vital role in the APA experience. I've been with them with quite some time now and now losing major interest in the APA due to the league operator's handling of things. Granted he's new to this, but i think he may need to re-evaluate his recurring memberships if he wishes to keep the APA above the other leagues.kmg said:
Tiger
Agreed. It promotes team playing. And I am All for that.catscradle said:
gpeezy
for sale!
I'm not much on league myself. I know there are quite of few people that I know that really like league. Rob Hall, a good player here locally, has had quite a bit of success playing league. He's won 8 ball singles that was a few thousand in cash and prizes. He was on a three man team that won in vegas. His league team goes to Vegas frequently. I'm just a different player. League is neccessary for pool I believe. I don't feel as many people would play if they had to enter local/regonal tournaments. Its more appealing to be able to see yourself progress on paper I think. Someone who picks up a cue and decides to start jumping into what I call "Action Pool" will soon be broke or not playing anymore unless they are a natural. I might have liked league better had I not ever gambled. When I get beat in league it doesn't bother me to much, I don't feel a need to get better and come back for another round and thats not the game I like to play.
kmg said:
I know I am probably going to be beat up for this, but, here goes. I am probably going to duplicate others comments because there will be posts when I am typing, sorry.
I quit playing APA because they went to the short format. Originally, there was a statement that there would never be a player rated below a 3 level. Then came the short format. If you are a 7 playing a 3, the race is 6 to 2. 6, the race is 5 to 2. Therefore, the players ability is reduced to only 2 games, which was an untruth to me.
It promotes sandbagging which was stated earlier. The handicap overall level is so low that in order to have good players, you have to sandbag to keep their handicaps down.
It discourages the better players from playing. No one wants a higher level player on their team. I play league play out of enjoyment and the people that are on my team. I do not want to change people every session.
It is not a uniform handicapping system, unless you are in a large populated area. Say you are in a small town. Your handicap is based on your ability against others in your area. You may be rated a 6 or 7 only to find out that there are 5's out there in Vegas or other areas that play better than you and they also are legitimately handicapped in their area.
The money isn't worth it. There are a lot of local leagues around that pay out just as much in the playoffs that you could win in Vegas for APA. Without the expenses.
Now for the good things. The majority of the players in any league play are 4's and 5's. That is what all leagues cater to. If there are a lot in your area, promote those higher level players to get a team going with weaker players. 1) this gets more people involved. 2) people benefit from learning from better players.
Brings more revenue to your establishment. But, this is true with any league play. Whether in-house or outside.
JMO
I played APA leagues for about 3 yrs. 1 session of 9ball and the rest in 8ball.
The good that I got outa playing it was since I was still a NEWBIE, I started to play better, and played different players too. Plus learning strategy.
The bad!!! sandbagging!!!!!
I really noticed sandbagging expecially in 8ball, people intentionally missing a shot that just missed the pocket, or w/e, it happens in 9ball too, and the people just give you the oh,, it was a tough shot or angle or w/e crap.
And yes, its true you have guys who are a Skill level or two under you and play even or better than you in reality.
Also, if you live in a major city with alot of good players, they will also have the advantage too, because since they are overall playing better competition, thier SL will be lower. Not that they are sandbagging, but it might as well be like that because they could be a 4 or 5 and just run racks on your booty.
I feel that if you want to play a GOOD league, play something like BCA or Valley/ VNEA rules.
The good that I got outa playing it was since I was still a NEWBIE, I started to play better, and played different players too. Plus learning strategy.
The bad!!! sandbagging!!!!!
I really noticed sandbagging expecially in 8ball, people intentionally missing a shot that just missed the pocket, or w/e, it happens in 9ball too, and the people just give you the oh,, it was a tough shot or angle or w/e crap.
And yes, its true you have guys who are a Skill level or two under you and play even or better than you in reality.
Also, if you live in a major city with alot of good players, they will also have the advantage too, because since they are overall playing better competition, thier SL will be lower. Not that they are sandbagging, but it might as well be like that because they could be a 4 or 5 and just run racks on your booty.
I feel that if you want to play a GOOD league, play something like BCA or Valley/ VNEA rules.
The APA has a few fun yearly tournaments like the Southwest Challenge in Vegas or even the team event in August. The APA in San Diego has fun little tournaments like a Bonnie and Clyde tournament around Valentines day, a Halloween tournament and a Turkey shootout.
If you are looking to make $ in the APA, I would look somewhere else. I know very FEW people who are up $ from playing APA.
APA players are usually big on buying drinks/food. We recently brought APA into our local pool room (On Cue Billiards) and I know the manager and the owner are quite happy with how much they spend. It makes up for a lot on a dead night.
I'm not big on being obligated to show up to league once a week (I hate commitments) and prefer tournaments myself. If you can find a team that will let you play 4x in a season, that's what I would do.
If you are looking to make $ in the APA, I would look somewhere else. I know very FEW people who are up $ from playing APA.
APA players are usually big on buying drinks/food. We recently brought APA into our local pool room (On Cue Billiards) and I know the manager and the owner are quite happy with how much they spend. It makes up for a lot on a dead night.
I'm not big on being obligated to show up to league once a week (I hate commitments) and prefer tournaments myself. If you can find a team that will let you play 4x in a season, that's what I would do.
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I don't know why people feel the need to talk about payouts from league play. If it's the money you are in it for, you are going to be disappointed in any bar league. And as far as Vegas, by a plane ticket and go, if you really need to "get there".
I feel that every night out I have, or any tournament should be fun, and enjoyable. And, for the most part, it is. I love my time playing APA and TAP.
I feel that every night out I have, or any tournament should be fun, and enjoyable. And, for the most part, it is. I love my time playing APA and TAP.
kmg said:
It's a Win, Win siuation for you. who really cares what the rules and regulations are, they shouldn't be you first priority. You want as many people as humanly possible to come in contact with your room. This turns into a numbers game for you in terms of sales. For every 10 people, you get one that buys the bucket meaning everything! Remember though poolplayers are cheep, a lot of them will only order water, be patient and offer good service and cator to the APA they will renerate you more income as opposed to the hussling crowd!
Apa Is Great For The Room Owner And For Socializing.
I play very avidly in the APA in manhattan, but I have to constantly remind myself that it is just for fun (since I try and take pool seriously in general).
A) as stated the short races are terrible. I firmly believe that any race should be at least 3 games for the lower handcapped player to win. With having to win only 2, luck plays far too much of a factor - even for a highly skilled player against a much weaker player (unless you are moving way up the food chain to semi-pro 7's - then it's not so much a problem).
B) Sandbagging is rampant in certain areas of the country. My team just went to Vegas and we actually did quite a bit better than expected (finishing in the money in 65th-128th place) however we were knocked out, nay COMPLETELY BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER, by a team that obviously gamed the system. And many teams go over and over to the national competition doing so the same way, sandbagging or changing the team makeup as much as possible in the spring and bringing in "ringers". The last match we lost was against an SL5 they affectionately called "The Hammer". If you have a nickname like that you are quite obviously a ringer who is underhandicapped.
B part two) The APA as a national body does not like to stir the waters. Thus even if people are blatently gaming the system they often don't disqualify you. I have heard numerous stories of people going up 2 SL's (cause for team DQ) yet the team does not get DQd. Why - they've already gone so far it would create too much mess to DQ them now. It seems like the APA is getting slightly better on this front.
B part three) League operators don't do what they can to avoid it. Many LO's know it goes on but do nothing to penalize teams for it. There are certain areas of the country (texas and illinois notably) that regularly field teams that dominate. It does not make sence.
C) An earlier post mentioned that handicaps are not equal across different league areas. This is true, but it is not because you are rated against your local competition. Mostly it is due to the difference in adherence to marking defensive shots. There is some leeway for handicaps to be a bit "off" because your local competition sucks - but the handicapping is roughly determined by innings-safeties/games...it doesn't really matter if you play weak or strong players - this shouldn't affect the overall innings-safties number.
D) I very strongly disagree with the handicapping levels. My main problem being that 2-6 seem pretty evenly divided up, but when you hit 7, there are people that are just barely 7's and then there are people that regularly win money in open tournaments who are 7's. Should a 6 only get a 1 game spot from both of those players - when in gambling the spot would actually vary quite a bit?
E) As stated by many the money is bad - this is why it is good to play somewhere where your host location will pay your dues - at least then it's not so much out of pocket. Getting to Vegas is very difficult - in manhattan where I play it amounts to winning 6 consecutive matches (2 playoff, 2 tri-annual, 2 city championship). This is not an easy thing to do with a team whose makeup might be changing and SL's changing.
At some point I'm sure I'll be fed up with it, but I like just hanging out with some friends in a low key environment and having some beers. It's a nice low stress thing compared to my "serious" league play...
A) as stated the short races are terrible. I firmly believe that any race should be at least 3 games for the lower handcapped player to win. With having to win only 2, luck plays far too much of a factor - even for a highly skilled player against a much weaker player (unless you are moving way up the food chain to semi-pro 7's - then it's not so much a problem).
B) Sandbagging is rampant in certain areas of the country. My team just went to Vegas and we actually did quite a bit better than expected (finishing in the money in 65th-128th place) however we were knocked out, nay COMPLETELY BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER, by a team that obviously gamed the system. And many teams go over and over to the national competition doing so the same way, sandbagging or changing the team makeup as much as possible in the spring and bringing in "ringers". The last match we lost was against an SL5 they affectionately called "The Hammer". If you have a nickname like that you are quite obviously a ringer who is underhandicapped.
B part two) The APA as a national body does not like to stir the waters. Thus even if people are blatently gaming the system they often don't disqualify you. I have heard numerous stories of people going up 2 SL's (cause for team DQ) yet the team does not get DQd. Why - they've already gone so far it would create too much mess to DQ them now. It seems like the APA is getting slightly better on this front.
B part three) League operators don't do what they can to avoid it. Many LO's know it goes on but do nothing to penalize teams for it. There are certain areas of the country (texas and illinois notably) that regularly field teams that dominate. It does not make sence.
C) An earlier post mentioned that handicaps are not equal across different league areas. This is true, but it is not because you are rated against your local competition. Mostly it is due to the difference in adherence to marking defensive shots. There is some leeway for handicaps to be a bit "off" because your local competition sucks - but the handicapping is roughly determined by innings-safeties/games...it doesn't really matter if you play weak or strong players - this shouldn't affect the overall innings-safties number.
D) I very strongly disagree with the handicapping levels. My main problem being that 2-6 seem pretty evenly divided up, but when you hit 7, there are people that are just barely 7's and then there are people that regularly win money in open tournaments who are 7's. Should a 6 only get a 1 game spot from both of those players - when in gambling the spot would actually vary quite a bit?
E) As stated by many the money is bad - this is why it is good to play somewhere where your host location will pay your dues - at least then it's not so much out of pocket. Getting to Vegas is very difficult - in manhattan where I play it amounts to winning 6 consecutive matches (2 playoff, 2 tri-annual, 2 city championship). This is not an easy thing to do with a team whose makeup might be changing and SL's changing.
At some point I'm sure I'll be fed up with it, but I like just hanging out with some friends in a low key environment and having some beers. It's a nice low stress thing compared to my "serious" league play...