APA rank & innings

dude, my problem isn't wiith apa bashing, i love bashing the apa, but im in the apa, im not that good, i dont have dreams of turning pro. and thats ok!!

as far as these towny super teams teams go, thats the point. the apa is different everywhere, and impossible to manage, but its still the single biggest and most relevant organization in pool, and it's entertaining to be a part of. so respect that.

my problem is with people who sound like they disregard the apa, because it is beneath them. because they are far superior players, who wouldnt waste there time, they offer nothing constructive. they're probably real good at pool. the most aciton in there towns is probably in the apa, but there to good, and no one wants them, cause there numbers are to high. and there probably a-holes who think there shit dont stink, to good to score, or be a good team player.

to cool to be in such a shitty league. go play with the pros *****es.. and stop reading threads.
 
tommygun78, how does the apa kill pool?

and regarding 25,000 purse, how bout them paying to house and fly 600 teams of 8. Thats right over 3,000,000 dollars to have about 5,000 people in the team tourney alone.. what do you want 250,000 dollars for your bar table team efforts. wake up. this isnt the pros.

i doubt a proffesional bowler would put down a bowling league. if it wasnt for these leagues, equipment sales would dwindle, as would sponsorships, as would players.

there was a pro event in grand central station nyc several years ago, and the turnout was sad. the whole event was actually quite sad. grand central was mobbed as it is every day, and no one cared. I was at a local predator event a few weeks back, and a bunch of locals were gathered at the pool hall to watch soccer, and clueless and uninterested in any pool tournament.

dont blame the apa for pools troubles, of all the events ive been to the apa's have been pretty entertaining for myself as a fan of the game.
 
tommygunn78 said:
The apa sucks theres no doubt about it!! Its a money making machine that doesn't promote pool it justs kills pool. doesn't pay to get better and the league doesn't want you to get better because better players question things and the APA don't like players asking questions. And there national payout is paythetic 25000 for a team of 8 to win it all. Thats a joke!!!
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Uhh, it's a hobby league, catering primarily to people who want to get out once a week and have fun. For that opportunity, people are willing to pay a little money. If you want to spend 4-6 hours a night to make some money, get a job. I work a desk job 40 hours a week, so I enjoy a regular league night(or two) out each week to get away from sitting on my rear. Do I expect to make a killing off of my BCA or APA paybacks? Nope. In APA, I don't expect anything back, but I'm more involved in the team as a whole and winning your way further into things. In BCA, I expect my money back plus a few bucks, but I enjoy a higher average level of play and their own regional tournaments and rankings.

My LOs have no problem answering questions. I have no problem improving, it just got a little tougher to find a team. This last time I just posted up on our area's APA site and somebody I had played against from another division picked me up for their team.

Better players don't question things, they just ***** about things louder because they think that a higher rating makes them more important. I maxxed out and I've got no problem with that. New teams greatly appreciate a big gun to help them out, give pointers and give a little leadership advice. On the flip side, I'd be just fine playing 4, 5 or 6 matches for the session and get a breather.

You also don't have to have 8 people on a team, you could have 5. I know, a few grand give or take is still lame. How much did you win in your last tournament? Most people that I know that have gone to Vegas for teams have really enjoyed it, not just for the tournament experience, but probably more so for the simple fact that they're doing something to have fun.
 
i am going to apologize in advance cause this is probably going to be a long post. there are several issues i want to address here regarding all leagues and apa in particular.

1st off, no league is perfect. why ? because you are always going to have people ***** about this rule or that rule or even how you can run it better than the lo does. no matter what the payout is it is never enough for some people.

let me address the following issues i hear all the time about apa.

1. sandbagging... i dont think it is as rampant as people claim. yes you will find some in just about any locale. but you will also find people in any league , bcapl, vnea, napa etc. etc that will bend, break, or use any rule they can to their advantage.

2. slop... yea there is slop in apa. slop counts in 9 ball in any league except for call the 9. hell slop counts in 9 ball at the pro level so i dont see the big issue with apa slop. i also have to say i dont see much slop in my area except for 3s and lower.

3. the 23 rule. it is just 2 points less than bcapl. 2 friggin points !! nuff said.

4. apa is all about the money....if you qualify for the nationals everything is free. lets compare this against bcapl. in apa you have to qualify, that means you have to beat the best in your area or the regionals to go. if you dont qualify you sit at home.

in bcapl if you dont qualify you can still go. you have to pay your own way and you have to pay an entry fee. seems to me bcapl is making extra money by saying you were not good enough to qualify but you can still come and play if you pay.

in closing i would like to comment a lil more on the sandbagging issue. all of the so called gamblers out there that hide their true speed till they get a game they like are nothing but sandbaggers.

it also has been stated on here more than once due to the level of competition from on ares to another that a s/l 6 in one area would be a 7 in some areas or a 5 in others. when i went to the regionals i blew some players away to the tune of 4-0 and 4-1. i am a 5. in my area a couple of them would be an average 4 or a good 3. no i am not a sandbagger.

i just have good days and bad days, some times i go from 1 extreme to the other in the same day. take for example the other night in double jeapordy. a 2 beat me in 8 ball 2-3. i beat a 7 in 9 ball 38-23. was the 2 a sandbagger ? no i dont think so, she just played good and i sucked :(.

am i a sandbagger cause i beat the heck out of a 7 ? nope, i was just playing the best game of my life at that moment. can i do it every day ? nope , that is why i am a 5, because i cant hold that level of play consistently.

it seems like every one just cant handle being beat by some one they think is a lesser player so they have to resort to that sandbagging excuse. does it lesson the sting and make you feel better claiming you got beat by a sandbagger ?
 
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Goose1972 said:
why do so many people that are not fans of the apa feel so inclined to read about and comment negatively about the apa.

i would never intentionally read a thread about the health benefits of spinach, more less post any comments on such a thread were many spinach enthusiasts would be communicating.
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Perhaps it's just a deep hatred based on their past experiences.
 
The way I see bar eight ball in the APA is pretty much a goodly amount of fair to partly cloudy players ( including myself) who have a way higher opinion of their game than they ever should have, ( not including myself, who I think sucks) And a handful of killers. The idea of better players 5-6-7's sandbagging is something I've heard tell about but have never witnessed in a match. I've seen good players get their ass kicked by a low handicapper, and say they lost to keep from moving up, but they just got their ass kicked is all. Way to much testosterone and beer floatin around our league to account for losing on purpose. I knew only one guy that habitually claimed to lose intentionally, and he sucked under pressure, and was highly suspect of stinking in the clutch. Keeping a good team intact because you love the team your on can get tricky regarding the 23 rule. When your game improves, you will eventually move up and possibly OUT and off the team, ( unless you like to hang out and not play) cause after all, it is a money making proposition for the franchise holders, and 3's are the life"s blood of the league. We defaulted in the last Vagas playoff cause we had no 3's. So I'm with the guys who know we should try to practice, but never manage to pick up a cue until Wed nite, but who like to drink, have some laughs, ( and get really annoyed when we beat ourselves at the table) did i mention really annoyed? So much for Sandbaggin:thumbup:
 
lorider said:
i am going to apologize in advance cause this is probably going to be a long post. there are several issues i want to address here regarding all leagues and apa in particular.

1st off, no league is perfect. why ? because you are always going to have people ***** about this rule or that rule or even how you can run it better than the lo does. no matter what the payout is it is never enough for some people.

let me address the following issues i hear all the time about apa.

1. sandbagging... i dont think it is as rampant as people claim. yes you will find some in just about any locale. but you will also find people in any league , bcapl, vnea, napa etc. etc that will bend, break, or use any rule they can to their advantage.

2. slop... yea there is slop in apa. slop counts in 9 ball in any league except for call the 9. hell slop counts in 9 ball at the pro level so i dont see the big issue with apa slop. i also have to say i dont see much slop in my area except for 3s and lower.

3. the 23 rule. it is just 2 points less than bcapl. 2 friggin points !! nuff said.

4. apa is all about the money....if you qualify for the nationals everything is free. lets compare this against bcapl. in apa you have to qualify, that means you have to beat the best in your area or the regionals to go. if you dont qualify you sit at home.

in bcapl if you dont qualify you can still go. you have to pay your own way and you have to pay an entry fee. seems to me bcapl is making extra money by saying you were not good enough to qualify but you can still come and play if you pay.

in closing i would like to comment a lil more on the sandbagging issue. all of the so called gamblers out there that hide their true speed till they get a game they like are nothing but sandbaggers.

it also has been stated on here more than once due to the level of competition from on ares to another that a s/l 6 in one area would be a 7 in some areas or a 5 in others. when i went to the regionals i blew some players away to the tune of 4-0 and 4-1. i am a 5. in my area a couple of them would be an average 4 or a good 3. no i am not a sandbagger.

i just have good days and bad days, some times i go from 1 extreme to the other in the same day. take for example the other night in double jeapordy. a 2 beat me in 8 ball 2-3. i beat a 7 in 9 ball 38-23. was the 2 a sandbagger ? no i dont think so, she just played good and i sucked :(.

am i a sandbagger cause i beat the heck out of a 7 ? nope, i was just playing the best game of my life at that moment. can i do it every day ? nope , that is why i am a 5, because i cant hold that level of play consistently.

it seems like every one just cant handle being beat by some one they think is a lesser player so they have to resort to that sandbagging excuse. does it lesson the sting and make you feel better claiming you got beat by a sandbagger ?
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I just want to say that, while 9 Ball might be a slop game in all arenas... 8 Ball is not, and in A.P.A, it is.. I have never played it.. nor do I desire to after hearing this.. I mean.. do I talk smack about it because of it? No, but it is no longer for me. When I found out that you can slop it in the wrong pocket it was an instant turn off for me. Infact that is one reason I do not enjoy playing 9 Ball as much as 8 ball. I feel like more skill is required when you are forced to call the outcome of the shot. Especially when you know what the cue ball is going to do.. i.e. a carom shot or something.

Please don't take this as me knocking it.. I just am saying it definitely isn't for me.. I don't even let my girlfriend keep shooting if she slops a ball in during 8 ball.. I stopped letting people slop in shots a long time ago. Makes for a messy table, lol.
 
LoVe4DaGaMe...The APA 8 ball rules are specifically for that league. 8 ball has always been a call pocket game, and still is anywhere except APA. The APA is meant to be a social league, and so those rules work well for that league. Just don't think that all 8 ball is played that way...it isn't!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

LoVe4DaGaMe said:
I just want to say that, while 9 Ball might be a slop game in all arenas... 8 Ball is not, and in A.P.A, it is.. I have never played it.. nor do I desire to after hearing this.. I mean.. do I talk smack about it because of it? No, but it is no longer for me. When I found out that you can slop it in the wrong pocket it was an instant turn off for me. Infact that is one reason I do not enjoy playing 9 Ball as much as 8 ball. I feel like more skill is required when you are forced to call the outcome of the shot. Especially when you know what the cue ball is going to do.. i.e. a carom shot or something.

Please don't take this as me knocking it.. I just am saying it definitely isn't for me.. I don't even let my girlfriend keep shooting if she slops a ball in during 8 ball.. I stopped letting people slop in shots a long time ago. Makes for a messy table, lol.
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LoVe4DaGaMe said:
I just want to say that, while 9 Ball might be a slop game in all arenas... 8 Ball is not, and in A.P.A, it is.. I have never played it.. nor do I desire to after hearing this.. I mean.. do I talk smack about it because of it? No, but it is no longer for me. When I found out that you can slop it in the wrong pocket it was an instant turn off for me. Infact that is one reason I do not enjoy playing 9 Ball as much as 8 ball. I feel like more skill is required when you are forced to call the outcome of the shot. Especially when you know what the cue ball is going to do.. i.e. a carom shot or something.

Please don't take this as me knocking it.. I just am saying it definitely isn't for me.. I don't even let my girlfriend keep shooting if she slops a ball in during 8 ball.. I stopped letting people slop in shots a long time ago. Makes for a messy table, lol.
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The question is why are you posting in a thread about APA if you never played it and don't plan on playing.
 
Scott Lee said:
LoVe4DaGaMe...The APA 8 ball rules are specifically for that league. 8 ball has always been a call pocket game, and still is anywhere except APA. The APA is meant to be a social league, and so those rules work well for that league. Just don't think that all 8 ball is played that way...it isn't!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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To be accurate, something that rarely happens in these threads, the open after the break rule has a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH bigger impact on a game of 8 ball than slop ever does between decent to good players.

The rules are what they are, and the APA catered to the weaker player as much as possible trying to achieve a 50% win rate for everyone, rules I think apply to this idea are:

- take what you make on break
- slop counts
- time outs
- etc

These rules were selected to eliminate disagreements and try to get an even game between players in a reasonable amount of time. People who normally complain about them are just trying to get another edge they honestly don't need in 8 ball. Good 8 ball players don't lose to weak 8 ball players at a 50% rate. I would bet they don't lose at a 30% rate.

Taking it one step further, 9 ball (in my opinion) is the APA creating rules based on everything they learned from 8 ball. 9 ball is much closer to an even handicap situation. Good players (I would guess) lose to weak players at a rate much closer to 50%. I would tend to suggest that APA would love to have 8 balls rules adjusted to get the results they get with 9 ball regarldess of what "rules" where gospil in the local pool hall. They want a model everyone can play, learn, from and have a chance. And yes god forbid, I'm sure they are making money for their efforts.
 
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I got into pool through the APA seven years ago(started as a crappy bar player) and still look forward to playing and hanging out with people that I've met over the years. I lost last night to a 5 after missing 2 banks on the 8 and having them go in the wrong pocket. It happens, I shook my opponent's hand and wished him luck for next week. You can see I've put in my 600+ matches so far. I think it's been a fair price for something that I enjoy. It has also helped me determine how I'm doing and gives me stats to track. Some people say it doesn't help you, or even hurts you.. they're full of it. I started as a 3 or 4 or whatever(don't remember my first session much) and worked my way up. The better you get and the better your opponents get, the less slop comes into account. Of course, you can use the rule to your advantage as well. This is where I am today:

Member Stats by Team
Top Gun MVP
Team # Team Name Format Session SL MP MW Win % Rank Points SL Group Rank Win % SL Group
00410 Stickmen 8-Ball Open Spring 2012 7 9 7 78% 7 33 All 2 78% All
08405 Version 2 8-Ball Open Spring 2012 7 10 7 70% 1 39 All 15 70% All
08505 Version 2 9-Ball Open Spring 2012 9 9 7 78% 1 50 All 8 78% All

8-Ball Last Date Played: 04/02/2012 9-Ball Last Date Played: 04/01/2012
8-Ball National Lowest Attainable: 7 - 2010 Singles Championship 8-Ball 9-Ball National Lowest Attainable: 0 -
* 8-Ball Matches Played Lifetime: 386 * 8-Ball Matches Won Lifetime: 249 * 8-Ball Lifetime Win Percentage: 65%
* 9-Ball Matches Played Lifetime: 238 * 9-Ball Matches Won Lifetime: 152 * 9-Ball Lifetime Win Percentage: 64%
* Total Matches Played Lifetime: 624 * Total Matches Won Lifetime: 401
8-Ball Matches Played This Session: 19 8-Ball Matches Won This Session: 14 8-Ball Session Win Percentage: 74%
9-Ball Matches Played This Session: 9 9-Ball Matches Won This Session: 7 9-Ball Session Win Percentage: 78%
Total Matches Played This Session: 28 Total Matches Won This Session: 21
 
slop is slop, i dont get people that are ok with slop in 9 ball, but blown away by it being aloud in 8-ball. i dont like it myself. but apa is a social league, where you need novices to field a team and every body plays by the same rules.

big boy 9 ball you sink 8 balls, miss ninth opponet wins game. this is fair, 9 ball is crap?? I mean it's a skilled game to be able to run a rack, but siwngs are ridiculous. i prefer apa 9 ball/straight hybrid rules to proffessional.


apa issues woith open table after break is very lame, you shouldnt be punished on the break.
 
What I enjoy the most about league is helping out the new players, the 2s, 3s, and 4s who are just picking up the game. Just a few minutes here and there working on basic concepts can make a big difference. Seeing them move up during the season is the reward even if they sometimes want to gripe about it!
 
rope_one said:
To be accurate, something that rarely happens in these threads, the open after the break rule has a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH bigger impact on a game of 8 ball than slop ever does between decent to good players.

The rules are what they are, and the APA catered to the weaker player as much as possible trying to achieve a 50% win rate for everyone, rules I think apply to this idea are:

- take what you make on break
- slop counts
- time outs
- etc

These rules were selected to eliminate disagreements and try to get an even game between players in a reasonable amount of time. People who normally complain about them are just trying to get another edge they honestly don't need in 8 ball. Good 8 ball players don't lose to weak 8 ball players at a 50% rate. I would bet they don't lose at a 30% rate.

Taking it one step further, 9 ball (in my opinion) is the APA creating rules based on everything they learned from 8 ball. 9 ball is much closer to an even handicap situation. Good players (I would guess) lose to weak players at a rate much closer to 50%. I would tend to suggest that APA would love to have 8 balls rules adjusted to get the results they get with 9 ball regarldess of what "rules" where gospil in the local pool hall. They want a model everyone can play, learn, from and have a chance. And
yes god forbid, I'm sure they are making money for their efforts.
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+1:thumbup:

Very, very good assessment.
 
rope_one said:
To be accurate, something that rarely happens in these threads, the open after the break rule has a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH bigger impact on a game of 8 ball than slop ever does between decent to good players.

The rules are what they are, and the APA catered to the weaker player as much as possible trying to achieve a 50% win rate for everyone, rules I think apply to this idea are:

- take what you make on break
- slop counts
- time outs
- etc

These rules were selected to eliminate disagreements and try to get an even game between players in a reasonable amount of time.
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Just wanted to make another point of clarification. The two points highighted above were not selected to eliminate disagreements. When the APA was formed, the rules that the professionals played (i.e., Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell) often included:

Slop Counts
Take What You Make

I still have a professional invitation tape from as late as 1986 (many years after the APA was started by these two players) where they were playing with both of these rules.

It's very simple: the rules were based on what the pros were playing at the time. The choice to *not eliminate them* may certainly be to continue to eliminate potential disagreements, but the APA didn't invent those two particular rules. 8-ball was played with those two rules for decades.

Freddie
 
Cornerman said:
Slop Counts
Take What You Make
It's very simple: the rules were based on what the pros were playing at the time. The choice to *not eliminate them* may certainly be to continue to eliminate potential disagreements, but the APA didn't invent those two particular rules. 8-ball was played with those two rules for decades.

Freddie
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That may be true, I don't know. What I do know is those two rules suck.

They diminish a great game, in my opinion.

Those rules and others, like the 23 rule are the reason many serious players don't take the APA seriously. A night out with friends, maybe. Good pool? What a joke.
 
desmocourtney said:
That may be true, I don't know. What I do know is those two rules suck.

They diminish a great game, in my opinion.

Those rules and others, like the 23 rule are the reason many serious players don't take the APA seriously. A night out with friends, maybe. Good pool? What a joke.
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The 23 rule is why so many good players are unable to play. There's a difference there.

Closed on the break? Makes the game harder. Slop? Rarely comes up during a high level 8b game. Of course, the people that don't play these rules always play 10b, because they also don't like sloppy safeties... right? I see more accidental safes than I do slopped balls. So many people try to make fun of the APA rules... so I ask them... why not play call-shot and show that you're good enough to do what you're trying to do? They usually don't have a reply.

I didn't hear you say anything about BCA's BiH off the break rule. Or does that rule not count? Open on the break and BiH from the break on a foul? Sounds pretty easy to me, too. And why allow people to scratch on the 8? They must not be good enough to play 'good pool'. :D
 
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desmocourtney said:
That may be true, I don't know. What I do know is those two rules suck.

They diminish a great game, in my opinion.

Those rules and others, like the 23 rule are the reason many serious players don't take the APA seriously. A night out with friends, maybe. Good pool? What a joke.
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1st i want to say i love playing pool and have no problem playing in any league. i have played bcapl and still would if it was in my area, it is no longer available here due to being poorly run from what i heard.

it gets me when people say apa is not for serious players. i take pool serious and know many apa players that also do. i am currently playing in apa and napa both, which i am sure most of you know napa is call your shot.

lets compare apa and bcapl rules and note which rules are geared for more serious players or more skilled players.

1. slop. helps lesser skilled players in apa. ADVANTAGE BCAPL

2. closed break in apa vs open break in bcapl. sometimes in a closed break you will have to resort to banking or kicking to get on your next ball. open break you can pick whatever is easiest. ADVANTAGE APA

3. scratch on the break. in apa you are limited to ball in hand in the kitchen which limits your options. bcapl you can place the cueball anywhere which gives lesser skilled players more options. ADVANTAGE APA.

4.playing format. in apa you match up against your opponent in a race determined by both handicaps. it is just you against your opponent to determine who wins the set, just like any 2 players who match up in any pool hall. in bcapl you play everyone on the other team once and are awarded points for balls not on the table that goes towards your teams total. you do not have to win the match to help your team win. ADVANTAGE APA.

i could go on but i think those are enough to prove my point. in bcapl you are awarded points for balls flying off the table,awarded points for whatever balls your opponent makes on the break if he elects to shoot the other set, awarded points for hitting your opponents ball 1st and then making yours. you call that serious pool for serious players ? what a joke :D
 
Well said Banks. Slop rarely comes up in my matches. Closed after the break slows the game down makes break and runs more difficult, and time outs are present in every amateur league I've seen.

The 23 rule is the only rule in APA that bothers me. It forces me to play less than I want to and now I can't play at all. I've been on this team for two seasons and I may have to leave the team if we don't find a "solid" SL 1-3 for next session. Two people went up in skill level and now I'm a permanent resident on the bench.

my 9 ball team
9-5-4-4-4-4-3

That said, the 23 rule is not as bad in APA 8 ball, but only because the scale doesn't go as high.
 
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