APA ratings

[StormHotRod300]

Reason # 189574 why I hate the APA!!!! the handicap system.

It favors sandbaggers!

Explain this to me, I played one session of 9ball back in 2004, and was a APA 5. I then went to play 8ball, and started as a 4, then was a 5 after the first week, and then became a SL6 after 5 wins in a row, against guys who were 4's and 3's. Well I then go on to lose my next 16 or 21 matches. And didnt get dropped to a 5. I mean I *****ed left n right about it, cuz I'd see guys who have been playing for years who were a 5 or under and they would move up n down like a rollercoaster.

Well the L/O told me its because the handicap system determines your SL based on your BEST last 10 matches. OK, so if you are losing constantly week in and week out, against SL 4's, Your last 10 BEST matches are still going to be the ones that you WON months ago.

This was something else I hated, It always seemed like the league board member's never moved up in SL no matter how often they won. I seen one guy who was a SL6 win for 20 outa 22 weeks and not move upto a SL7. I seen his team mate who was also on the Board, and was a SL6, Win a match and get moved down to a 5!!!!!! And he had been a SL6 for about 1 yr at said time.

Now try and explain that to your everyday league players.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

"The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that."
Jude, I teach math. I find calculations like this interesting. I also would like to know why some players do not go down even when they consistently lose to lower players. If the APA protects this so some do not try to start their own leagues using someone else's hard work I respect that. You are out of line to suggest that I would only want to exploint their system. You do not know me or why I want this information. This is why in my original post I said I was not interested in opinions. I am only interested in the calculations. If this is not available so be it. Please keep you opinions to yourself.

Okay, perhaps you're right. I shouldn't jump to conclusions and I apologize for that. However, I cannot imagine there is anything of any mathematical significance going on. What's more, I do not believe the majority of people who seek this information are merely interested in it for academic purposes.

 

[trustyrusty]

Either someone is missing deliberately or they're not. There really is nothing more to it than that.

,

nah, it can get be less obvious than that....those, oops I missed that break out, or after pocketing a ball the cb pushes one of your other balls making a cluster, missing leaves, etc. all = extra innings. Someone with really good control of the rock can manage multiple innings (may require a safe or two also) and still win matches AND not go up. Not that I've ever seen or known of this happening....

 

[RRfireblade]

Most people want an expanation for why they feel they have been wronged and everyone else has been righted.

 

[RRfireblade]

It's simple really , for a period of time you played at a level that reflected your SL.

You will now always be a threat to be able to play at the level until you show you are never a threat to do so again.

Reason # 189574 why I hate the APA!!!! the handicap system.

It favors sandbaggers!

Explain this to me, I played one session of 9ball back in 2004, and was a APA 5. I then went to play 8ball, and started as a 4, then was a 5 after the first week, and then became a SL6 after 5 wins in a row, against guys who were 4's and 3's. Well I then go on to lose my next 16 or 21 matches. And didnt get dropped to a 5. I mean I *****ed left n right about it, cuz I'd see guys who have been playing for years who were a 5 or under and they would move up n down like a rollercoaster.

Well the L/O told me its because the handicap system determines your SL based on your BEST last 10 matches. OK, so if you are losing constantly week in and week out, against SL 4's, Your last 10 BEST matches are still going to be the ones that you WON months ago.

This was something else I hated, It always seemed like the league board member's never moved up in SL no matter how often they won. I seen one guy who was a SL6 win for 20 outa 22 weeks and not move upto a SL7. I seen his team mate who was also on the Board, and was a SL6, Win a match and get moved down to a 5!!!!!! And he had been a SL6 for about 1 yr at said time.

Now try and explain that to your everyday league players.

 

[Cornerman]

Do any of you know how APA ratings are calculated? I recently heard that the 2003 or earlier team manual showed this, but the APA does not want people to know how to do this, so they eliminated this from recent manuals. I don't know if this is true. I spoke to the my league operator and he said he was not allowed to explain it.

The way the handicapping system works was never put in any APA manual.

I am not interested in hearing opinions on the calculations. I would like to know the actual algorithm. What I have seen so far does not make sense to me. I have a player on my team who was moved up to 4 from a three. He proceeded to lose two weeks in a row to players with levels of 2. Each match was hill/hill. He was not lowered. He then beat a 2 at hill/hill. This guy is clearly a 3. I have heard numerous similar scenerios. I have heard that going to vegas is a joke. Players tell me there are random ranking changes that seem arbitrary.

The basic algorithm of the APA Equalizer handicap system was put on the internet about 10 years ago. Suffice it to say, there have been changes to it since then, but the basics are pretty much the same.

Does the knowledge of the handicap system prevent/aid sandbagging? No. Sandbagging is going to be attempted regardless. And worse, the false accusations of sandbagging will continue, regardless. My experience tells me that more people claim sandbagging more than people actually sandbag. 95% of amateur poolplayers wouldn't know sandbagging if it was dumped in their lap. Amateurs have a wide swing in skill. That's why we're amateurs.

Different regions will play stronger or weaker, so a SL-6 in a strong area would be an easy SL-7 in a weaker region. So, in regional tournaments or Vegas Nationals, players from a relatively weak areas will think others must be sandbagging to have such low handicaps. Also, any player from a mid-level SL-7 and below will have swings in their games that could make them shoot like a Skill Level two levels down. We're amateurs. It happens.

Let it lie dormant. The knowledge of the handicap system doesn't help anyone. The guy who put the system on the internet could have got in some serious trouble.

Fred

 

[StormHotRod300]

RRfireblade

Since you acknowledge the Handicap system is based on your best matches. What determines your best matches? Only when your winning?

Like you also said, you could have two guys playing a good match and the loser still wont go down. So how is someone suppose to know just by looking at the score sheet, that they played a good match?

Here is an example, you have a SL7 playing a SL5 in 8ball. 5-3 race. the 7 wins the lag, breaks makes a few balls misses, the 5 runs a few balls and misses and the 7 wins the game, chalk up 1 inning. Now Repeat that for the next 5 games. and you might end up with a total of 10 innings for the match. So if you looked at a score sheet with this, would it look close? yes, but how would you really know? I mean the SL5 might get to the table and miss his first shot. And the SL7 has a easy shot on the 8ball.

So how is a computer suppose to judge someones talent based on a score sheet?

 

[klockdoc]

Well the L/O told me its because the handicap system determines your SL based on your BEST last 10 matches. OK, so if you are losing constantly week in and week out, against SL 4's, Your last 10 BEST matches are still going to be the ones that you WON months ago.

The way I remember it, it is based on the BEST out of your last 10 matches. Meaning that when you play the 11th match, the 1st drops off; you play the 68th match, the 58th drops off, etc and so on. It is averaged on those ten.

The formula for the APA handicap system was developed by one person and to this day, he is still working for the APA under contract. APA tried to develope their own system once, but, later decided against it and went back to the original developer.

 

[catscradle]

...The formula for the APA handicap system was developed by one person and to this day, he is still working for the APA under contract...

For some reason, I'm picturing this skinny geek with 1/2 inch think glasses in a basement working with a slide rule and a chalk board with equations all over it.

 

[RRfireblade]

So how is a computer suppose to judge someones talent based on a score sheet?

Quality of the scorers.

IMO , the number 1 reason for errors in SLs as I've seen it since I've been in league.

Most commonly , incorrect inning scoring and incorrect defensive play scoring.

Stuff I've seen this last year alone :


I ran into a guy that marked every miss as a defense cause he said if you you didn't make it then it was defensive.

I've ran into countless others who never mark defensive shots at all and/or couldn't tell what one was anyway.

And others who end the inning after each game regardless of who carries over.

Handicapping is never easy nor is it ever perfect. You can't please everyone all the time. For everyone that you think is at the wrong lever , there are 2 people that feel the same about you.

All I can say is if it gets so bad you are not enjoying it , then maybe handicap leagues are not for you. There are always head to head Tournys instead.

I look at it this way , "I" determine my own outcome on the table. If I play to my best ability and lose , then my opponent played better than me and there must be a lesson in there somewhere. The trick sometimes is to find it.

My best lessons have come from my worst loses , I'll take that over an easy win every day.

A close second to that is the opportunity to play a better player regardless of outcome.

IMO.

 

[RRfireblade]

The way I remember it, it is based on the BEST out of your last 10 matches. Meaning that when you play the 11th match, the 1st drops off; you play the 68th match, the 58th drops off, etc and so on. It is averaged on those ten.

I don't personally know but I've heard in some instances where it may be 20.

 

[ribdoner]

I've witnessed "matches" where the team captains just filled out scoresheets...

One of the teams did well (top 5) in VEGAS but got popped for baggin(LOL)

BIATCHED like crazy when they got home...............GO FIGURE??

 

[Cornerman]

RRfireblade

What determines your best matches? Only when your winning?

No. That should be enough, right?

All the information that people put down on the scoresheet is entered into the software. It is certainly possible that one of your best matches happened in loss.

Fred

 

[trustyrusty]

I've witnessed "matches" where the team captains just filled out scoresheets...

One of the teams did well (top 5) in VEGAS but got popped for baggin(LOL)

BIATCHED like crazy when they got home...............GO FIGURE??

LOL - scoresheets? we don't need no stinkin' scoresheets!

In Vegas we ran across a team that had never marked a safety....never. We showed them how, and dispatched of them 3-0.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Do any of you know how APA ratings are calculated? I recently heard that the 2003 or earlier team manual showed this, but the APA does not want people to know how to do this, so they eliminated this from recent manuals. I don't know if this is true. I spoke to the my league operator and he said he was not allowed to explain it.

I am not interested in hearing opinions on the calculations. I would like to know the actual algorithm. What I have seen so far does not make sense to me. I have a player on my team who was moved up to 4 from a three. He proceeded to lose two weeks in a row to players with levels of 2. Each match was hill/hill. He was not lowered. He then beat a 2 at hill/hill. This guy is clearly a 3. I have heard numerous similar scenerios. I have heard that going to vegas is a joke. Players tell me there are random ranking changes that seem arbitrary.

From my experience, the algorithm is very slow to react sometimes when a player is at the wrong ranking for their actual ability level. It's just a very imperfect system. I went on a streak when I was a 5 (had been a five for a session or two, and had become a very strong 5) where I won something like 12 out of 13 consecutive matches, many of them with less than 2 innings per game, and two or three of them against 7's. Never at any point did I intentionally or unintentionally run up my innings, since I broke really hard and usually tried to run out even though I didn't get all the way most of the time, meaning when it was my break, the table was generally wide open for the entirety of the rack, and so the innings were usually low.

Finally I got a letter in our team's envelope saying enough people had complained about me being underrated that they were manually changing me to a 6. I didn't have a problem with it because I felt it was entirely fair, I just thought it was funny that the algorithm couldn't seem to figure out what was plain for anyone to see: I definitely should not have been ranked a 5.

So I would just give your teammate some time, and presumably his skill level will adjust after a while. If not, take your case to your LO and support it with information about the guy's record, and see if you can get a manual adjustment. They should know the system doesn't end up being an accurate assessment for each and every player, even if there is no foul play or anyone trying to manipulate their ranking.

-Andrew

 

[TheBook]

The formula from a 1986 rule book shows a formula for averaging the best scores. After 10 matches are played than the 5 best scores are used to calculate a average innings per games won. Old scores are permanently marked out always leaving 10 active scores. The handicap isn't based on matches won, only games won. It also doesn't let a few bad weeks affect your playing skill rating.

Just play as best as you can and be honest about it. The handicap system is to give everyone a fair chance and make the game enjoyable for all. It is a chance for lessor players to be on a team and not be intimidated by the better players that play on the heads up leagues. Many times during our league play the match will go hill/hill and each player needs to make only one or two balls to win the match. When this happens you know that the system is working.

In the book it has 0 to 2 innings is a super pro, over 7 innings is a H-2. You can fill in everthing in between yourself.

 

[Gregg]

APA really does a pretty decent job, overall. I've seen worse. A lot worse.

I feel like the APA puts way too much emphasis on a players best performance.

Playing over your head or getting a bit lucky on a bar table can make you go up, and again, as said, it's a long road from there to drop back down.

 

[frankncali]

Truth of the matter is that there is a small perentage of APA players that are two SLs or more underrated but there is a high percentage or APA players that think that they are 2 or more SLs underrated.

The APA is what it is and its good for pool IMO. Many players are playing and having a good time doing so. Friendships are formed.

If anyone thinks that they are going to make any money in the APA then they are mistaken. Very few true hobbys allow you to profit from doing what you like to do.

The handicap system is ok. I think one real problem is that we have players that are legit c-d-e level players out there making assessments on
someones game.
I cant count the times that I have heard players talk about a low rted players run of a few balls like it was Secretariet coming down the home stretch.

I would say that at least 75% of games lost in the APA are do to lack of skill by one of the player rather than too much skill by the opponet.

 

[Bamacues]

Truth of the matter is that there is a small perentage of APA players that are two SLs or more underrated but there is a high percentage or APA players that think that they are 2 or more SLs underrated.

The handicap system is ok. I think one real problem is that we have players that are legit c-d-e level players out there making assessments on
someones game.
I cant count the times that I have heard players talk about a low rted players run of a few balls like it was Secretariet coming down the home stretch.

I would say that at least 75% of games lost in the APA are do to lack of skill by one of the player rather than too much skill by the opponet.

Tap, tap,tap, Frank. Real valid points. I don't know how many times I have watched someone break and clear most of the obstructions off a table, and give up the wide open table to a decent SL 4 who runs out a rack that Ray Charles could have run out, and they start crying about how they are sandbagging. And yes, you find out much better what your true skill level is at the national tournament. I am 8-ball SL7, and once in Vegas, a team played a SL3 against me who won the lag, broke and ran, then made 8 on break...game over...doo-doo occurs...that wasn't as bad as the 9 ball SL 2 who played my youngest son, a 9 ball SL6 at the time, broke and ran first rack, broke and ran 6 balls second rack...my son was down 16-0 before he shot. A 46-3 race is a tough one to win.
Joe

 

[ScottW]

Tap, tap,tap, Frank. Real valid points. I don't know how many times I have watched someone break and clear most of the obstructions off a table, and give up the wide open table to a decent SL 4 who runs out a rack that Ray Charles could have run out, and they start crying about how they are sandbagging. And yes, you find out much better what your true skill level is at the national tournament. I am 8-ball SL7, and once in Vegas, a team played a SL3 against me who won the lag, broke and ran, then made 8 on break...game over...doo-doo occurs...that wasn't as bad as the 9 ball SL 2 who played my youngest son, a 9 ball SL6 at the time, broke and ran first rack, broke and ran 6 balls second rack...my son was down 16-0 before he shot. A 46-3 race is a tough one to win.
Joe

These are the times you call a ref over and get people put on the 'watch list'. They'll raise someone up on-the-spot if they feel it's warranted.