APA Rule Question - Moving balls

M

maxeypad2007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
During the city qualifier this past weekend an issue came up with the guy I was playing. I'm new to APA, its only my first full season and lets just face it the rulebook is not totally complete with every errata known to man.

The guy I was playing bumped the 8ball and another ball while shoot and then quickly grabbed the balls and scooted them back. I stopped the guy because I thought this was a foul or at the very least it was supposed to be my option to place the ball back not his. I asked the nearest APA expert (the director was in the bathroom I believe) and he said I have the option to move the ball back, but both players must agree on the ball position, which I agreed that it was close enough.

So is this actually a foul? IE the fact that he moved it back without asking me?

Also on another shot he moved balls AFTER the cueball had started moving that very well could have affected the outcome of the game.

Not trying to be a stickler here I just would like to learn.
 
Im by no mean a rules expert but... If i am not mistaken what you where told is correct... it is your option to move them back... and i think you have to place them... him replacing them is a foul i believe..

same thing applies to the second situation... especially if the balls that where unintentionaly moved actually make contact with any of the moving balls that where involved in the shot..

again i am not a rules expert... so dont hold me to exact words LOL

EDIT: here is a clip out of the rule book hope it helps :)


g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.

EXCEPTION: If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact with thecue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced.
Click to expand...
 
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maxeypad2007 said:
During the city qualifier this past weekend an issue came up with the guy I was playing. I'm new to APA, its only my first full season and lets just face it the rulebook is not totally complete with every errata known to man.

The guy I was playing bumped the 8ball and another ball while shoot and then quickly grabbed the balls and scooted them back. I stopped the guy because I thought this was a foul or at the very least it was supposed to be my option to place the ball back not his. I asked the nearest APA expert (the director was in the bathroom I believe) and he said I have the option to move the ball back, but both players must agree on the ball position, which I agreed that it was close enough.

So is this actually a foul? IE the fact that he moved it back without asking me?

Also on another shot he moved balls AFTER the cueball had started moving that very well could have affected the outcome of the game.

Not trying to be a stickler here I just would like to learn.
Click to expand...

Its a foul under most rules- have no idea about APA. Generally the player cant touch the moved balls- he must wait for you to replace them and there is nothing about mutual agreement on the replacing. It happend during the BCA where the low life team replaced the ball directly behind another ball deliberately and nowhere near its original spot. A real SKUNK move.
 
maxeypad2007 said:
... The guy I was playing bumped the 8ball and another ball while shoot and then quickly grabbed the balls and scooted them back. I stopped the guy because I thought this was a foul or at the very least it was supposed to be my option to place the ball back not his. ...
Click to expand...
No shooter is ever permitted to intentionally touch object balls. Foul. However, the APA rules are badly written and are not clear on this subject. Consequently, you may get differing opinions from various officials.

The APA rules are online at: http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf
 
yes, this is very unclear. I'd love to know the answer on this...officially because I KNOW this will come up again.
 
maxeypad2007 said:
yes, this is very unclear. I'd love to know the answer on this...officially because I KNOW this will come up again.
Click to expand...


Not a foul. Someone should just remind the guy to wait until everything is done and both of you place the balls back.
They HAVE TO BE PLACED BACK. No option.

Only time this is different is if the Cueball is involved. Then if a moved ball touches the CB its a foul. Incoming player gets ball in hand where the OBs lie. No replacing of the moved balls in this case.

The only time it becomes an issue is if the person moves the balls out of the way of the cueball. IMO then it becomes a foul and an intentional moving. APA rules are a bit vague on this.
I have seen it happen once. A low rated new player accidentally hit a ball while shooting. The CB was coming back that way and she saw it and instinctually reached down and moved the ball she had moved back.
I just told her the rule and played from where it lay.
 
They HAVE TO BE PLACED BACK. No option.
Click to expand...

I've been in the APA for more years then I care to count.

My understanding is this:
Either YOU move em back....or YOU decide to leave em where they are...so imo there is an option.

The other playing moving the balls back is not an option however.
Is it a BIH or loss of turn foul? I honestly have no idea. Maybe up to the refs or director discretion?
 
Rules, must vary from league to league then. In our APA league the opposing player has the option to replace or not replace any balls that their opponent moved. It is not however, mandatory that moved balls be replaced.

frankncali said:
Not a foul. Someone should just remind the guy to wait until everything is done and both of you place the balls back.
They HAVE TO BE PLACED BACK. No option.

Only time this is different is if the Cueball is involved. Then if a moved ball touches the CB its a foul. Incoming player gets ball in hand where the OBs lie. No replacing of the moved balls in this case.

The only time it becomes an issue is if the person moves the balls out of the way of the cueball. IMO then it becomes a foul and an intentional moving. APA rules are a bit vague on this.
I have seen it happen once. A low rated new player accidentally hit a ball while shooting. The CB was coming back that way and she saw it and instinctually reached down and moved the ball she had moved back.
I just told her the rule and played from where it lay.
Click to expand...
 
you are correct it is pretty unclear...


however if you read the paragraph out of the rule book i posted... there is a bit in there about who should replaced the balls. if read in context with the sentence before it... i would think one could assertain that the shooters oppenent should be the one replacing the ball... at least that is how i read it... and this is how my team capt. looks at it as well (he just happens to be one of our division reps) :)

at least that is how i would look at it :)

... It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. ...
Click to expand...


Maybe it is a courtesy thing around here... we usualy ask the oppents if they want the ball moved back. :)
 
This is another fine example of a poorly worded rule in the APA Rule Book. Here it is, quoted from the site:

These are the only fouls resulting in ball-in-hand. All other violations sportsmanship violations. The ball-in-hand fouls are as follows:
Click to expand...

g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls (including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot, it must be replaced before the shot is taken.
Click to expand...

Now, I would interpret this to mean if you move a ball in the course of shooting and it affects the outcome of the shot, it's a foul (in some instances, a loss of game).

Regarding your opponent intentionally moving object balls, this is a tough scenario since in most instances, the player does so with good intentions in mind however, you're simply not allowed to intentionally move object balls EVER. If I were the referee, I would deem this a foul based on the quoted rule since THIS IS listed under what is a foul. It protects the shooter from "accidental" movement, not deliberate.
 
Bleh... i already quoted the rule book....

[cry] no one believes the noob! [/cry]

LMAO...

sorry slow day at work :)
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
This is another fine example of a poorly worded rule in the APA Rule Book. Here it is, quoted from the site:





Now, I would interpret this to mean if you move a ball in the course of shooting and it affects the outcome of the shot, it's a foul (in some instances, a loss of game).

Regarding your opponent intentionally moving object balls, this is a tough scenario since in most instances, the player does so with good intentions in mind however, you're simply not allowed to intentionally move object balls EVER. If I were the referee, I would deem this a foul based on the quoted rule since THIS IS listed under what is a foul. It protects the shooter from "accidental" movement, not deliberate.
Click to expand...
Also, the rule you quoted say the moved balls must be replaced, I don't see there being an option there.

Steve
 
Thunderball said:
I've been in the APA for more years then I care to count.

My understanding is this:
Either YOU move em back....or YOU decide to leave em where they are...so imo there is an option.

The other playing moving the balls back is not an option however.
Is it a BIH or loss of turn foul? I honestly have no idea. Maybe up to the refs or director discretion?
Click to expand...

I think you are right on.
 
Moving Balls

Last session I was told by the local APA Owner that it was no longer an option to leave the balls where they lay and that they had to be returned to their original position.
 
sde said:
Also, the rule you quoted say the moved balls must be replaced, I don't see there being an option there.

Steve
Click to expand...


See, it doesn't state whether it must be replaced and must be replaced by the opponent OR if it's going to be replaced, the replacing must be done by the opponent. It's a little dubious. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying it could be worded better.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
See, it doesn't state whether it must be replaced and must be replaced by the opponent OR if it's going to be replaced, the replacing must be done by the opponent. It's a little dubious. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying it could be worded better.
Click to expand...
There is no doubt in my mind that it could be worded better. And this rule is not the exception. :o

Steve
 
APA is cueball fouls only. Bumping touching or otherwise moving a ball with the exceptions already posted is not a foul in the APA.

Banger
 
sde said:
There is no doubt in my mind that it could be worded better. And this rule is not the exception. :o

Steve
Click to expand...


Yeah, this is just the beginning. I have to run an APA tournament in a couple weeks and I'm already preparing for a lot of this. You should see how I'm handling the frozen rule.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yeah, this is just the beginning. I have to run an APA tournament in a couple weeks and I'm already preparing for a lot of this. You should see how I'm handling the frozen rule.
Click to expand...
Good luck with that!!

The APA rules leave so much to be interpreted and it must always to kept in mind, what is the intent of the rule.

It would be nice if you were to start a thread and let us know how your tourney goes.

Steve
 
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