APA Rules Question - Switching Cues

M

maxeypad2007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I've read the APA rules from the website and then I've heard local interpretations of rules as well.

I use a phenolic tip break cue and shoot with a southwest with an ivory ferrule, that I obviously don't want to destroy during match play with a jump shot.

Can I LEGALLY switch to my break cue. Not using the jump part, but the full cue to shoot a jump shot mid match after I have already started shooting with my shooting cue?
 
I believe the newer rules state that you CAN switch cues for a jump shot - just that the cue you use has to be a full-length cue.
 
Yes, you can switch to the other cue for a jump shot, as long as it is a full cue, but I thought in the APA phenolic tips weren't allowed?
 
First, I do not understand why you would use a cue you're afraid to damage from typical play. I mean, if you're afraid to jack-up and spike the ball into the slate for fear of causing damage to your cue, get a new cue. Leave the collectables in their glass cases. This is a sport and occasionally equipment gets damaged.

Second, I've never heard of a jump shot damaging a cue in ANY way.

Third, your APA opponent has a valid argument. The rule implies that you use one cue for shooting and may use another for breaking. Switching to another cue for jumps APPEARS to be a direct violation of the jump cue rule. Unless they have intimate knowledge of the cue you're switching to, they're going to think it's specifically designed for jumping (ie., The Stinger is an excellent full length jump cue).
 
ScottW said:
I believe the newer rules state that you CAN switch cues for a jump shot - just that the cue you use has to be a full-length cue.
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The current rule states "Jump shots are legal, when executed properly but such shots must be attempted using your regular game cue. Those cues especially designed for jump shots MAY NOT be used in competition. Players are not allowed to break their cues down to attempt jump shots."

That rules out switching cues AND shortening your playing cue.
 
i may be wrong but this subject seems to come up at every single end of session meeting. the leaugue rep always says the same thing:
you can break with one cue and then switch to a playing cue. after that you can not switch to any other cue until the rack is over. if you forget to switch cues after the break and take a shot with your break cue, you are stuck with it until the rack is over.
 
Ant812 said:
i may be wrong but this subject seems to come up at every single end of session meeting. the leaugue rep always says the same thing:
you can break with one cue and then switch to a playing cue. after that you can not switch to any other cue until the rack is over. if you forget to switch cues after the break and take a shot with your break cue, you are stuck with it until the rack is over.
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That rule doesn't make any sense. I've seen many players break with their break cues and then start to shoot with it and sometimes they shoot the first shot and it hits them that they have the wrong cue. The rule you are referring to means they have to shoot the game with their break cue if they shoot the first shot with it even if they miss the shot. That's another reason I don't care for the APA.......
 
SCCues said:
That rule doesn't make any sense. I've seen many players break with their break cues and then start to shoot with it and sometimes they shoot the first shot and it hits them that they have the wrong cue. The rule you are referring to means they have to shoot the game with their break cue if they shoot the first shot with it even if they miss the shot. That's another reason I don't care for the APA.......
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Actually, that's not an uncommon rule and only recently have they begun to allow multiple cues to the table. I think I'm on the exact opposite end of the spectrum when I say, this is why I hate jump cues and my hat is off to the APA for having some integrity about it!
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
The current rule states "Jump shots are legal, when executed properly but such shots must be attempted using your regular game cue. Those cues especially designed for jump shots MAY NOT be used in competition. Players are not allowed to break their cues down to attempt jump shots."

That rules out switching cues AND shortening your playing cue.
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I didn't see anything in the rule about break cues though...wouldn't both be considered regular game cues? I've always heard that you need a full-length cue for jumping, and players routinely switch between break and playing cues in apa matches here. I've also heard that you cannot play with a phonelic tip, but i don't see that rule in the book anywhere. (Master's rules differ than open rules as well. In Masters, you can use jump cues)
 
SCCues said:
That rule doesn't make any sense. .......
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personally i agree, i really dont care what equipment is used by my oppenent or if he wants to switch it around mid game. i would never call a foul nor would my captain for it. and i think aloowing jump sticks to be used would be fantastic.
 
maxeypad2007 said:
So I've read the APA rules from the website and then I've heard local interpretations of rules as well.

I use a phenolic tip break cue and shoot with a southwest with an ivory ferrule, that I obviously don't want to destroy during match play with a jump shot.

Can I LEGALLY switch to my break cue. Not using the jump part, but the full cue to shoot a jump shot mid match after I have already started shooting with my shooting cue?
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I asked the following question to my APA LO on our new local APA forum site a couple months ago,




Quote:
Posted - 09/18/2007 : 11:33:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a discussion on another forum regarding switching cues for a jump shot. Some, including another APA league operator, are saying that on a national level this is permitted. (Of course, local bylaws that state otherwise prevail locally.)

Here's the link: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=72708

This is the rule in the current 2007/8 team manual.

33. EQUIPMENT

In general, any piece of equipment designed specifically for pocket billiards, with the exception of jump cues and laser devices, is acceptable in APA League play. Special equipment, such as bridges and cue extenders, are legal.
Jump shots are legal, when executed properly (see JUMP SHOTS described in Definitions), but such shots must be attempted using your regular game cue. Those cues especially designed for jump shots MAY NOT be used in
competition. Players are not allowed to break their cues down to attempt jump shots.

*Any piece of equipment not covered by this rule and in question will be ruled upon by APA. Cues with moveable parts will generally NOT be allowed.

I think the debate centers around the definition of "regular game cue". I stated my opinion in the other thread, but is there anything more officially definitive other than a few random interpretations?

Thanks
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The reply was the following



Quote:
Brad Hall


22 Posts
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 2:34:47 PM
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I just called the national office. The response was that you can NOT use any cue that is not your regular game cue to make a jump shot. It is stated fairly clearly in the rule: Jump shots are legal, when executed properly, but such shots must be attempted using your regular game cue.

Logically, if you are switching to another cue to make a jump shot, that cue has characteristics that make it easier for you to jump, or you wouldn't be switching. (It is lighter, has a harder tip, has a metal ferrule, etc.) Therefore, the APA does NOT allow you to use any other cue to make a jump shot.

For those of you who like to be pool room lawyers...This does NOT stop you from using a break cue to break with, even though it may have characteristics that are helpful in jumping. You can use a break cue to break with.

As stated in the first post, every league operator has their own by-laws and this is the type of thing we can allow if we want. At the national level though, the definitive word is that you cannot switch cues to make a jump shot. You have to use you regular game cue.

BTW...In my area, I do NOT allow any other cue to be used for a jump shot.

Hope that helps here and at nationals.


Brad Hall
Chicago APA
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Our local APA franchisee allows jumping with your break cue, but the one and only time we got to Vegas we discovered that national rules do NOT allow it. Check with your local league, national allows them to make them legal within the extent of their league.
 
apa rules?

It appears to me the apa is more concerned with bs rules (if you change shafts in the middle of a match its a foul?) (if while coaching you use the players cue to line up a shot its a foul?) and less concerned with who wins on the table. - I once saw a player pick up the cue ball as it fell in the pocket (he was the shooter) and hand it to the woman he was playing (appeared to be an attempt at courtesy) cost him the game and the team the match. I know before you all chime in with - how he should know the rules and so forth.

It would seem to me to be a hollow victory!

Yes I now play in the apa until the end of this session - but at that time I figured it was just a bunch a ball beaters ( i have since found most to be good folks looking to have a good time and hone their skills) at that point I had no horse in that race.

In the short time I have played in the apa I have seen more people concerned with bs rules and chicken s arguments (think of Earnest T Bass)then I have seen in 30 years of betting sweating with and against gamblers.

It has been a disapointment to me that fairplay and common sense can't seem to coexist in the apa - at least in my area

I would like to see someone in power with the apa make a decision (just once) based on what is right and fair(think of Andy Griffith) - not just blindly toss the baby out with the bathwater cause its a rule!(think of Barney Fife)

think about all the things that have changed because someone said at some point - this rule is not being applied fairly or correctly in this instance - its easier to say I don't make the rules - I have no choice etc..

I'll leave all you players with this last thought - if our forefathers felt that way - we would all still be speaking english - Indians and buffalo would still roam the plains - pool would be on tv more than bowling and lawn darts - ribdoner would have sent me my bs detector by now -

Disclaimer! all the aforementioned is purely fictional - any resemblence to the APA league director in alexandria,va (think of Gomer)is purely coincidental and of course my observations are limited to the apa leagues I have personally been exposed to. I can only guess based on posts here and other input - that there in fact may be somewhere - someone associated with the apa that does in fact have some commonsense and integrity - otherwise they will in fact eventually manage to kill the goose!
 
I play in APA and TAP leagues.

We are allowed to change cues during the game in both leagues. This is a local by-law in the Baltimore region of the APA run by Terry Justice. You may not break a cue down for a jump shot, but you can change back to your full-lengthed break cue.

In TAP, we are allowed to change cues and can also use a jump cue of no less than 42" in length.

In both leagues, a phenolic ferrule/tip combination is legal, however, I understand that may change in the future.

Joe
 
gesan said:
It appears to me the apa is more concerned with bs rules (if you change shafts in the middle of a match its a foul?) (if while coaching you use the players cue to line up a shot its a foul?) and less concerned with who wins on the table. - I once saw a player pick up the cue ball as it fell in the pocket (he was the shooter) and hand it to the woman he was playing (appeared to be an attempt at courtesy) cost him the game and the team the match. I know before you all chime in with - how he should know the rules and so forth.

It would seem to me to be a hollow victory!

Yes I now play in the apa until the end of this session - but at that time I figured it was just a bunch a ball beaters ( i have since found most to be good folks looking to have a good time and hone their skills) at that point I had no horse in that race.

In the short time I have played in the apa I have seen more people concerned with bs rules and chicken s arguments (think of Earnest T Bass)then I have seen in 30 years of betting sweating with and against gamblers.

It has been a disapointment to me that fairplay and common sense can't seem to coexist in the apa - at least in my area

I would like to see someone in power with the apa make a decision (just once) based on what is right and fair(think of Andy Griffith) - not just blindly toss the baby out with the bathwater cause its a rule!(think of Barney Fife)

think about all the things that have changed because someone said at some point - this rule is not being applied fairly or correctly in this instance - its easier to say I don't make the rules - I have no choice etc..

I'll leave all you players with this last thought - if our forefathers felt that way - we would all still be speaking english - Indians and buffalo would still roam the plains - pool would be on tv more than bowling and lawn darts - ribdoner would have sent me my bs detector by now -

Disclaimer! all the aforementioned is purely fictional - any resemblence to the APA league director in alexandria,va (think of Gomer)is purely coincidental and of course my observations are limited to the apa leagues I have personally been exposed to. I can only guess based on posts here and other input - that there in fact may be somewhere - someone associated with the apa that does in fact have some commonsense and integrity - otherwise they will in fact eventually manage to kill the goose!
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Um, wow. This is about jump cues? Look, in my opinion, the APA is the lone organization willing to put their foot down about jump cues. What's more, you're talking about a league that primarily consists of beginner/intermediate players who don't even know how to use a jump cue. I think this keeps things simple and doesn't turn an otherwise casual league into an equipment war.
 
gesan said:
I once saw a player pick up the cue ball as it fell in the pocket (he was the shooter) and hand it to the woman he was playing (appeared to be an attempt at courtesy) cost him the game and the team the match. I know before you all chime in with - how he should know the rules and so forth.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the guy should know not to scratch. :rolleyes:

Seriously, if the cue ball is going into the pocket, what difference does it make catching it? If the guy was on the eight and the cue ball was rolling in the pocket, the game's over anyway. If the guy wasn't on the eight, and he touched the cue ball as it's going in the pocket, it doesn't matter, it's still a foul anyway.

We're talking APA rules.
 
Switching Cues

We are allowed to switch cues in are area at any time. Your regular playing cue actually consists of two cues. Your break cue and your playing cue. These are your regular playing cues.

APA does allow using a jump cue in Masters 3 person teams. I used a jump cue in the APA Masters National 3 person team event in August of this year in Las Vegas.
 
I have sent a direct request for an answer to the national APA. Anyone else who would like may call 636-625-8611.

I think jump cues should be allowed as a natural progression of the game. Consider changes in construction materials throughout the year. Better balls, better rails, definitely better cloth. The same thing has happened in other sports as well... leather basketballs, more variety/construction materials of golf clubs, boxing gloves.

It is my viewpoint that the evolution of the game is just that and will require some changes from what the "APA founders" established.
 
I am pretty sure at that time at least it was loss of game! otherwise you are correct of course he should have been told not to scratch!
 
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