Under World Standardized Rules 8.2: A shot begins when the tip contacts the CB due to a forward motion of the cuestick.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
APA Rules Question
- Thread starter iateyourlunch
- Start date
This is the exact quote form the TAP rules, the part in bold is what I have an issue with:
"If there is separation between
the two balls equal to or less than the width of a piece of chalk, the
shooter must keep from double hitting the cue ball. To make a legal hit
the shooter must either 1) When shooting directly at the two balls
elevate the back of the cue in an attempt to put draw on the cue ball, or
2) Shoot at an angle not directly in line with the two balls. As long as
an honest attempt at either is made, no foul can be called."
I've seen players jack up, and then send the cueball 2 feet past the object ball, clearly a push or a double hit and it was all good according to them and the other players. I've also seen someone with less than an inch between balls follow the cueball 2 rails out for position and that was also called a "good" hit. Unless you are Efren, you are not getting follow like that out of that shot without a foul.
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I don't believe the APA book says anything about using equipment as intended. I'm pretty sure it states that the equipment that is used must be specifically designed for billiards, but it says nothing about how it is to be used. Keep in mind that this is the APA that we're talking about, not the WPA. In the APA you don't need to call pocket or shot, you need to mark your 8 ball intended pocket, there is really no dress code, all balls are not alive, loser racks.... and other such stuff. It's a very rudimentary kind of pool to a lot of you guys. The type of shot in question, in The APA, is a legal shot, unless things have changed recently. The APA rule says nothing about a forward stroke. This is how I have seen the rule applied on every level of APA pool
A legal stroke is in a forward motion towards the cueball. Raising up the tip is not forward. From WPA rules about what a "shot" is: "A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick". Therefor if you hit the ball and it's not a foward motion, it's a foul as you hit the cueball but it's not a "shot".
I don't see anything in the APA rules about exactly what a legal stroke is according to the APA, which should mean that the standard rules apply.
Pardon my crude cue stick drawings, but I just wanted to show the direction the tip is being sent.
Your illustration of the technic in question shows the tip going straight up but in actually it does not because of the arc it must take if you're pivoting at the wrist or the elbow. So because of that arc the tip does go forward a bit.
One could argue that that satisfies the going forward issue.
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According to this http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5105885&postcount=19 it's a foul to not use a regular forward stroke and just swipe up or down on the ball with the tip.
They should modify the rulebook a bit.
One could argue that technically nothing is touching anything else except by some electrical chages between solid material so every shot you can take is a foul since the tip never "touches" the cueball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBZr1qmsQ0U
I'm bringing my portable particle accelerator with me to the pool hall next time so I can avoid that nothing is touching foul, soon as I accelerate my cuestick to 90% of the speed of light I will be able to execute a correct shot.
Those are the kind of cutting up technical terms and rules that drive the people between "called pocket" and "called shot" into wars. Well you called the shot into that pocket but you did not say it was going to bounce off that large string or hit the point of the pocket so it's not a called shot, and it's my turn.
I saw the "lift the tip" trick on a pool video or in a pool book (or both) many years ago so it's been around for a while. Maybe it was once legal. Maybe it still is in some leagues. Who knows? What I do know is that there really isn't a need for it. If you have good control over your cue you should be able to play close to the same shot with a conventional grip and stroke.
I saw that shot performed several times at the NTC in last August with a referee watching at least a few of those times, it was never called a foul. A new team manual has been printed since then with no adjustments in the language. Interesting that The APA would address that in the referees manual and not clue the rest of us in
But players do not always have good control over the cue stick in that situation. When playing with frayed nerves under high pressure, it can be difficult to actually make a "forward stroke motion" and still only slightly move the CB. It's possible to seriously err in such conditions -- opening up a shot for your opponent -- whereas just lifting the tip or tapping or touching some portion of the CB is done more easily.
Which is likely exactly the reason it's not allowed.
I've seen lots of rules that were never called by someone watching, although in most cases not by a ref. Taking a ball out to measure space for a shot, illegal, yet I've seen it done with 8 people watching including the person that runs the league.
Guy rubbing his cue behind the ball and leaving a mark at the ghost ball center, no-one once again said anything. This was not just a simple, oops I left a mark while thinking and pointing, he would look at the contact point then put his stick down exactly where the center of the ghost ball would be on contact and rub the tip aa bit on the table there.
Refs that don't know the rules are worse than players that don't.
The rules need to be adjusted for the APA to explain what a proper way of hitting the cueball is. Even beginners should understand what "forward motion of the cue with your hand" is vs side to side or up and down.
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This is another one. I have seen this done many times and I don't find any rule forbidding this. Personally I find it to be poor etiquette, but I have seen it done and because I find no written rule I cannot call it a foul, and it hasn't been among those considered a foul on our local level here.
The marking the table though, that is a foul, even the book says it's a foul.
Yes, my post was to explain/reinforce the reason for the rule.
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There is a nice document I found before that shows official APA rulings, quite a few situations are there with what the official APA stance is on them.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...uoCADQ&usg=AFQjCNEjs0dOAQ_sAgxxU9fKgw4Sdn9wBw
The ball measuring was in a TAP league not APA, but that question about measuring space while using a ball is in that PDF file, and it states there is nothing against it in the rules so is OK in APA.
There is another situation where a player marks the pocket but the 8 ball hits the marker on way to pocket. Normally, it's a foul since you placed an object on the table and the ball hit it. In the APA world, it's all good since it's an "amateur league". That seems to be the reasoning behind every ruling that is against what the WPA rules state. I like to put it as "simple rules for simple people". It's like the APA rule makers are saying that "we can't expect people to be aware of their surroundings so why bother them with all these rules about proper shooting and interference on a table".
Page 9 in that document seems to answer this threads question. Legal hit. Although this document probably isn't considered APA laws, but merely Akron by-laws.
Funny thing is that would contradict a prior post where someone said they spoke to an APA ref and they said that in the ref rulebook the shot is not legal.
If the APA wants to redefine a legal stoke as the WPA sees it, up to them.
I stopped thinking of the APA as a place for pool players to actually play pool a while ago anyway. Whatever they have now has as much to do with pool as we know it as a poodle has with the wolves they evolved from. What I find funny is how many players that I run into at bars that think tossing out the fact that they play in the APA would immediately make me fall down in awe or something, where it's actually the opposite. I think "APA eh, sorry to hear that, let me show you how to hold your stick properly".
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I think from APA folk you will commonly get both legal and not-legal responses. I think you will get that variance from people who play pool in general, as you see in this thread, because the rules tend to be ambiguous.
As Scott and another called out, it's part intent, and part forward motion of the cue that makes the shot legal... Sort of... But even forward motion in APA, BCA, WPA, and otherwise is not always the test so at some point it becomes ambiguous.
Forward motion is not always the case because one can make a legal shot by aiming and stroking straight down on the cue ball to make it masse... Some we see once in play a while and is not called a foul because we see the person stroke the cue, propel the ball, and do so without double contact. No forward stroke required, completely legal.
To me this is a similar move to scooping, except one is not actually lifting the ball off the table or digging into the cloth. In APA scooping is clearly illegal,but this is more ambiguous because it's not explicitly called out in the rules. I am fairly sure my LO would say it's illegal if he saw it happen, but I'm certain I can find other opinions from other LO's I know. I feel like it should be explicitly illegal because it just ain't natural and it's un-American dammit!
As Scott and another called out, it's part intent, and part forward motion of the cue that makes the shot legal... Sort of... But even forward motion in APA, BCA, WPA, and otherwise is not always the test so at some point it becomes ambiguous.
Forward motion is not always the case because one can make a legal shot by aiming and stroking straight down on the cue ball to make it masse... Some we see once in play a while and is not called a foul because we see the person stroke the cue, propel the ball, and do so without double contact. No forward stroke required, completely legal.
To me this is a similar move to scooping, except one is not actually lifting the ball off the table or digging into the cloth. In APA scooping is clearly illegal,but this is more ambiguous because it's not explicitly called out in the rules. I am fairly sure my LO would say it's illegal if he saw it happen, but I'm certain I can find other opinions from other LO's I know. I feel like it should be explicitly illegal because it just ain't natural and it's un-American dammit!
When you hit down on the cue for a masse, you are still moving the tip forward, just forward towards the ground. It does not have to be forward as in parallel with the table, just the stoke goes from back of the cue to the front like I diagramed where I had the cue angled down. Tip motion is directly way from the rear of the cue in a straight line along the cue length, not up at a 45 degree angle from it.
Lets use a gun analogy, if you shoot a gun, the bullet goes straight from the barrel opening. It goes that way if you have the gun pointed away from you parallel to the ground, up in the air, at the ground. Forward motion of the bullet, does not matter which way the end of the barrel is pointed at.
The issue here is that the APA does not explain what a legal stoke is in the rules. Maybe it does not matter in the APA rules how you hit the ball as long as the tip hits the cueball.
Until the WPA declares a miscue to be an illegal hit (it's a double hit and usually contact with the ferule), I wouldn't worry what the official APA rule is on this - there isn't one. If you plan on playing a shot this way, check with a ref or APA rep before doing it. If you see your opponent setting up to do it, interrupt him and ask for the same, just as you would for asking someone to watch a shot. That decision must stand in that situation. Be comfortable that it may differ depending on who you ask but getting a ruling from an official will settle it for everyone.
APA is set up to be amateur/beginner friendly - nit picking goes against the spirit of the league (though IMO, this shot also goes against the spirit of the league and pool in general)
APA is set up to be amateur/beginner friendly - nit picking goes against the spirit of the league (though IMO, this shot also goes against the spirit of the league and pool in general)