APA rules question

bsmutz

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Silver Member
Last night I was playing 9-ball. I was down on my shot, shooting at the 5 ball (a very easy straight in shot). A team mate and an opponent were playing 8-ball on the adjacent table. The opponent in that game backed into my cue while I was paused at the back stroke prior to the final forward stroke. He pushed the cue forward and caused it to come in contact with the cue ball. The cue ball hit the five but neither ball hit a rail after contact. The opposing team said that the rule was that the shot was a foul and my opponent got ball in hand. They also said that it is the shooter's responsibility to make sure that he has nothing around him that will cause this type of problem. I ended up winning the match anyway, but wanted to find out what the consensus was for the future.
After looking at the rules on the APA web site, I can find no mention of this. Is this something they made up? Has anyone encountered this before and if so, how was it handled?
 
What? An opponent interferes with your shot and an opponent wants to call a foul is on you?

I'm big on following rules, but I wouldn't even waste time looking up something like that. You need to call your league operator.
 
this is true if ....

bsmutz said:
Last night I was playing 9-ball. I was down on my shot, shooting at the 5 ball (a very easy straight in shot). A team mate and an opponent were playing 8-ball on the adjacent table. The opponent in that game backed into my cue while I was paused at the back stroke prior to the final forward stroke. He pushed the cue forward and caused it to come in contact with the cue ball. The cue ball hit the five but neither ball hit a rail after contact. The opposing team said that the rule was that the shot was a foul and my opponent got ball in hand. They also said that it is the shooter's responsibility to make sure that he has nothing around him that will cause this type of problem. I ended up winning the match anyway, but wanted to find out what the consensus was for the future.
After looking at the rules on the APA web site, I can find no mention of this. Is this something they made up? Has anyone encountered this before and if so, how was it handled?
Outside interference ie: a player on the next table bumps you and causes you to foul it is ball in hand to your opponent! sad but true has happened to me a few times!:(
 
We have a Tavern league here besides the BCA league and there are 40 teams in the league...This happened one night and there are rules written for the Tavern league which says that, "if someone bumps your cue and your cue moves a couple of balls, you and your opponet agree as to where you think the balls were and you continue to shoot"...."If it is a hard bump and really messes up everything then you re- rack and play the game over"....
I know this don't help you in APA but you asked if this had ever happened to anyone before and I saw this happen and this was the rule in this league...
 
APA and BCA a world apart !

NINEBALLART said:
We have a Tavern league here besides the BCA league and there are 40 teams in the league...This happened one night and there are rules written for the Tavern league which says that, "if someone bumps your cue and your cue moves a couple of balls, you and your opponet agree as to where you think the balls were and you continue to shoot"...."If it is a hard bump and really messes up everything then you re- rack and play the game over"....
I know this don't help you in APA but you asked if this had ever happened to anyone before and I saw this happen and this was the rule in this league...

it should be that way in the APA but it isn't! :(
 
Though it doesn't specifically mention outside interference, the current APA rules seem to jibe with the folks posting above. In the case mentioned above, it's an accident, and hence, a foul. I imagine since you did hit your object ball and if it had dropped or hit a rail, yeah, you'd have been good.

http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

Page 5, item g.

Causing movement of the cue ball, even
accidentally, is a foul. It is not a foul to
accidentally move any other balls (including the
8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player
moves a ball and it in turn strikes the cue ball.
Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball is a foul.
Any balls moved accidentally during a shot must
be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over
and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs
before the shot, it must be replaced by the
opponent before the shot is taken.
Exception: If an accidentally moved ball comes in
contact with the cue ball, creating a foul, no object
ball will be replaced.
 
Yeah it's in the rules. But, personally I think it's a judgement call I've had it happen not to me but to a person that I was playing. I let him reposition the cue ball and take the shot over, I'd hate to win on a technicality like that.

Black Cat :cool:
 
I guess that's what's bugging me enough to post this. If I had accidentally moved the cue ball, I would have expected a foul. When the accident is outside the shooter's control, I would think that it should not be a foul. What if a ceiling tile fell or someone threw a beer bottle across the room? Would it be a foul on me just because I happened to be the one shooting at the moment it happened? If so, I consider this to be completely lame. I did not cause the movement of the cue ball. Someone else did. Since the person that caused the movement wasn't playing in the game, I would think having the opponent reset the balls or reracking would be the most fair way of dealing with this type of situation.
 
A league here has a rule similar to the tavern league above with the additional stipulation that if you get bumped by someone on your own team, it is a foul. If a waitress or passerby bumps you, no foul. I would add that many leagues have a rule or more that is lame. APA has a couple of clunkers, IMO.
 
I have a question of my own regarding APA rules

I play in a league at the university of illinois that follows APA rules as far as I can see.
Specifically, what happens if the cue ball is frozen to the only object ball left,

for example the 8 is frozen to the cue ball and its the last shot you have to make.

are you allowed to "push through" ie double hit??? or are you just in bad luck ?

I might be a little unclear with my question but its happened a couple times and im dying to know the answer
 
bsmutz said:
Last night I was playing 9-ball. I was down on my shot, shooting at the 5 ball.... Has anyone encountered this before and if so, how was it handled?
My question is this; when your opponents teammate bumped into you, were you at your table 1st or was he at his table already in the middle of a shot and then you walked in behind him to take your shot? If you were at your table 1st and then he bumped into you then I'd say you have a legitimate gripe. However, if he was already in the middle of his shot at his table and then you walked to your table to take your shot, then it is entirely your fault. Many people don't extend the courtesy and allowing someone to take their shot before they walk next to, behind or infront of them whether just passing by or taking their own shot. Nothing bothers me more than when I am down taking a shot and someone just sticks their @$$ or crotch infront of me to take their shot or even if they try to squeeze between me and their table. Whether it was you or your opponents teammate who got into position last, a little patience could have avoided the whole incident altogether.
 
A push shot is always illegal

sirgelfee said:
I have a question of my own regarding APA rules

I play in a league at the university of illinois that follows APA rules as far as I can see.
Specifically, what happens if the cue ball is frozen to the only object ball left,

for example the 8 is frozen to the cue ball and its the last shot you have to make.

are you allowed to "push through" ie double hit??? or are you just in bad luck ?

I might be a little unclear with my question but its happened a couple times and im dying to know the answer

though there is a legal way to play this shot! I do not know how to explain it though in this forum perhaps some one else will be able to!
 
sirgelfee said:
Specifically, what happens if the cue ball is frozen to the only object ball left, for example the 8 is frozen to the cue ball and its the last shot you have to make. Are you allowed to "push through" ie double hit??? or are you just in bad luck ?

What you're supposed to do in that case, when the cue is frozen to a ball and you're trying to make that ball - you're supposed to jack up your cue around 45 degrees, shooting down on the cue, much like when jumping the cue using a jump stick. This is to prevent the double-tap of the stick on the cue. If you try to shoot straight through, the tip of the stick will strike the cue twice (as the cue bounces back from the object ball), which is a foul. Jacking up 45 degrees helps prevent the double-tap.
 
bsmutz said:
I guess that's what's bugging me enough to post this. If I had accidentally moved the cue ball, I would have expected a foul. When the accident is outside the shooter's control, I would think that it should not be a foul. What if a ceiling tile fell or someone threw a beer bottle across the room? Would it be a foul on me just because I happened to be the one shooting at the moment it happened? If so, I consider this to be completely lame. I did not cause the movement of the cue ball. Someone else did. Since the person that caused the movement wasn't playing in the game, I would think having the opponent reset the balls or reracking would be the most fair way of dealing with this type of situation.

Ruling questions... There will always be touchy rules whereby there will be different interpretation of how it really should be (i.e. many might say that it should be call 9-ball only in that game). We will all have some preferences, which may be different than what the rule really is. Often times, if you're not close minded to one point of view, then can understand that there is a valid viewpoint which makes the rule more understandable than at first perception. Rules often develop to their current state from evolving over time and consideration of a broad range of issues, rather than a single minded case by case basis. Since there are so many different ruling organizations, there will obviously be many different viewpoints. The key is always to understand the rules of the organization which you're involved in, and then the challenge is your ability to adjust and succeed within that ruleset.

In many situations, people often have more power or control than they believe at first. As was mentioned earlier, sliding into the vicinity of another player/shooter, would mean that you have more responsibility than originally imagined. This recommends that players should have an awareness of what's happening around them. Awareness is a vital factor in preventing these incidents. Next, since the original post, is in reference to a team environment, then increased awareness could be used by fellow teammates (whether it be teammate, captain or coach) to prevent these incidents. Could even take it to the next level, of preemptively analyzing and acclamating to an event location (as many pro's would do i.e. Jeanette Lee).

Otherwise, you really open the door to slippery slope and/or fine line arguments which you, Bsmutz, refer to; ceiling tile, beer bottle, ... hot chick, waitress walking by, argument, fight, birthday celebration, kids, or any other unpredictable behavior, which could be expected in a public establishment.

What if scenarios:
you don't reset the balls the same
there's an argument over how they should be setup
if not enough balls, who's gonna pay...
rerack - who breaks? current shooter or original breaker?
the new arrangement is easier or harder ball layout (magnified when the resulting layout is followed up by a runout that would've been unlikely in original situation)
How about unscrupulous activity, such as having a plant (person) intentionally bump into an opponent at a designated time?

Does the player still get to complain about being sharked and their concentration broken from the incident? How much time they get in order to retain focus?

Sometimes seemingly unreasonable rules are in place to keep it simple, eliminate nuance, and to forward the action. We all understand the frustrations of such an unusual occurence. The question becomes how quickly can you bounce back and recover and regain composure, if and when given the opportunity.
 
Poolfool, I was down on the shot and the space behind me was clear. The guy who bumped me came over to get the balls out of the table to start a new game. When he bent over and backed up is when he hit my cue. He was one of those big semi-retarded looking guys that doesn't comb their hair and has the open sweatshirt with one shoulder falling off.
Flickit, thanks for the thoughts. In this instance, I was able to quickly detach myself emotionally from the incident. After reading the rules for the APA, my interpretation would be that in this type of circumstance there should be some type of mutual agreement. I would certainly not give in like I did Wednesday night. I counted on my captain to know the rules and when he didn't protest their decision, I went along with it. There are already rules in place for accidentally moving a ball besides the cue ball. I didn't see it, but my wife said that while setting up for a shot, my opponent moved a ball and put it back without saying anything. There is a rule for that that was not followed. Later in the match, I accidentally hit the cue ball during warm up strokes and moved it a quarter of an inch. I called that on myself and gave him bih. Clearly I didn't know the rules and I should have.
Earlier in the season I was using a quarter to mark my pocket in 8-ball. The first week I played, no one said anything about it. The next week, the captain of the team I was playing against told me I couldn't use a coin to mark my pocket. The rules specifically state that anything can be used to mark a pocket, but they recommend against using chalk to avoid confusion. It seems like people are making their own little rules or interpreting the existing rules in some way that doesn't reflect the intention of the rule, like the accidental movement of the cue ball.
 
bsmutz said:
Last night I was playing 9-ball....Has anyone encountered this before and if so, how was it handled?

Well, IMHO, I think the opponent shouldn't have been playing on the other table in the first place. I believe there is even a ruling on that, in the World Standardized Pool, not that it helps, but the team captain should've seen this coming.... I don't know many teams that practice on a table ADJACENT while playing a match. Who does this sorta thing, isn't it better to observe your opponent so that if fouls do occur, both parties who are actually involved within the match can discuss it among themselves?
For me, honestly, I would have given him ball in hand, but kindly tell him that he should be more mindful of the match at hand.

Just my 2 cents.
 
That happened to me at APA regionals. I was just about to shoot an easy 8 in the side to win the match, and a player on the next table walked into my stick causing me to foul. Ball in hand to my opponent. :(

Regarding push shots (not rollouts); they are more an art than a science as far the APA is concerned. In normal league play, they are most often ignored. At higher level events, it's up to the discretion of the judge watching the shot.

It's my understanding that there is no double tap if you push straight through 2 balls that are frozen. Is that incorrect? I should probably check out Dr. Dave to see if he has some high speed footage of that situation.
 
sirgelfee said:
... Specifically, what happens if the cue ball is frozen to the only object ball left,

for example the 8 is frozen to the cue ball and its the last shot you have to make.

are you allowed to "push through" ie double hit??? or are you just in bad luck ?

I might be a little unclear with my question but its happened a couple times and im dying to know the answer
This has just been discussed extensively in the recent thread "Push Shot Fouls" and that thread references an earlier thread with even more discussion.

Briefly, you can play any normal stroke towards a frozen ball. It is not a double hit. It is not a "push shot" under the wording used in the rules. This has nothing to do with whether there is only one object ball left on the table.

Also, I urge you to get an official BCA/WPA rule book as your next pool purchase. They cost less than ten bucks at the local billiard supply store, and besides the rules for the usual games, there are ten or fifteen other games described that can be fun as a break from the usual 8-ball routine. Sometimes Borders (and other book stores) have the rule book, but that is usually a more expensive edition (with the same info).
 
ScottW said:
What you're supposed to do in that case, when the cue is frozen to a ball and you're trying to make that ball - you're supposed to jack up your cue around 45 degrees, shooting down on the cue, much like when jumping the cue using a jump stick. This is to prevent the double-tap of the stick on the cue. If you try to shoot straight through, the tip of the stick will strike the cue twice (as the cue bounces back from the object ball), which is a foul. Jacking up 45 degrees helps prevent the double-tap.
No. The 45-degree thing is totally bogus. There is no double hit if the cue ball is frozen to the object ball.

Please get a copy of the rules and read them. Also, please read the other thread on "Push Shot Fouls."

The APA rules are on-line at http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf but be warned that they are not particularly complete or well written. (Not that the current BCA/WPA rules are much clearer, but they are more complete.)
 
bsmutz said:
Flickit, thanks for the thoughts. In this instance, I was able to quickly detach myself emotionally from the incident.


bsmutz said:
There are already rules in place for accidentally moving a ball besides the cue ball. I didn't see it, but my wife said that while setting up for a shot, my opponent moved a ball and put it back without saying anything.
It's kinda like 9-ball. You have to know if you're playing all ball fouls or cue ball fouls only. In this case, in the APA like many other leagues, they play cue ball fouls only. This is clearly stated in the rule book that you have links to, and the point that the "ball must be replaced" is even highlighted. Thus, when you say "my opponent moved a ball and put it back", then that was the correct action, under cue ball fouls only.

bsmutz said:
There is a rule for that that was not followed. Later in the match, I accidentally hit the cue ball during warm up strokes and moved it a quarter of an inch. I called that on myself and gave him bih. Clearly I didn't know the rules and I should have.
As stated, since this is cue ball fouls only, thus since you moved the cue ball, then that would be a foul. You can find the rules for cue ball fouls in the book as well.

bsmutz said:
Earlier in the season I was using a quarter to mark my pocket in 8-ball. The first week I played, no one said anything about it. The next week, the captain of the team I was playing against told me I couldn't use a coin to mark my pocket. The rules specifically state that anything can be used to mark a pocket, but they recommend against using chalk to avoid confusion. It seems like people are making their own little rules or interpreting the existing rules in some way that doesn't reflect the intention of the rule, like the accidental movement of the cue ball.
I understand that you are new to the league, so there will be a learning curve. The concept is simple and pretty straightforward. Do not mark the shot, with anything that would likely be found on a pool table. Hence the two most popular exclusions are a regular piece of chalk (distinct from a pocket chalk marker), and money, especially quarters, which would very likely be found on a bar-box coin-op table. If someone wants to nitpick in this area, believe me it can be done ad infinitem.

Hence another point about rules. Often times the biggest trap about any set of rules, is to go in trying to purposefully prove a point, which over 99% of the time happens to be in your own favor. Instead it's more useful for someone to go in trying to understand the rules as they are intended. Thus the trap is when people have a scenario, and spend all their efforts trying to prove themselves right. A majority of the time the result will be either someone claiming that's not right, it "should be" some other way, or a claim that it's too nuanced and not clearly defined, or some other form of confusion.

Instead, when going in trying to understand the rules as they are intended, then the rules will often appear much more consistent and thorough.
 
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