APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

Shawn Armstrong

Abooboo No Neck
Silver Member
Don't try and play that trick, I was not making fun, I was stating my opinion. I don't care what you think of other people. If leagues are your thing COOL. I think they are money making machines/ great business's and from a players( I love to play pool ) perspective they are a joke.

Trent from Toledo

“From a player’s perspective”. Classic.

Plenty of players that would hand you your ass in that joke league you refer to.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
“From a player’s perspective”. Classic.

Plenty of players that would hand you your ass in that joke league you refer to.

I never said there were not good players in the league, I specifically said I think the league is a JOKE. There you go making statements about nothing. I know a TON of great players that play in that league that could beat me with their eyes closed. For the people who wanna "play pool, meet people and have fun" I am happy they like it. League is still a Joke to me.


Trent from Toledo:thumbup:
 

RichSchultz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't try and play that trick, I was not making fun, I was stating my opinion. I don't care what you think of other people. If leagues are your thing COOL. I think they are money making machines/ great business's and from a players( I love to play pool ) perspective they are a joke.

Trent from Toledo
that is insulting, Trent. I am a player. I am a serious player. I am in a league.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In every situation, criminal or civil, always follow the money.

I don't know anything from nothing but if I thought something smelled fishy... my first question would have been...Who received the money as a result of the disqualification?

Exactly. We think alike.

I've played in a few handicapped tournaments and leagues both individually and on a team. If the guy running the tournament waited until the finals and pulled something like this the manure would have hit the fan and I don't mean maybe.

This is the equivalent of stealing the money off the light and running out the door with the other guy's cash. I'd get a lawyer who works on contingency and go after them.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
that is insulting, Trent. I am a player. I am a serious player. I am in a league.


My opinion should not mean anything to you then. You fully can think the opposite, but, you getting insulted is your fault. Great that you are in a league. I play in a couple of locally operated leagues that pay most of the money back to the players. I like getting some of my money back from playing league. I think APA is a Joke and it is even more of a joke that someone's handicap got raised or someone got kicked out all together, it happens every year.


Trent from Toledo
 

Shawn Armstrong

Abooboo No Neck
Silver Member
that is insulting, Trent. I am a player. I am a serious player. I am in a league.

+1

There’s a room full of APA players in Florida come November. If you think league players aren’t “real players”, come down with your wallet. They’ll play you all day long.
 

WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
People keep equating this to someone having a standout night. Without boring the general public, there are tools at the team’s disposal to avoid the very situation that happened to Sean’s team. At the start of the tournament, you are given a team form. You sign it. And declare handicaps. For the past 20 years, any player I’ve had that was a bubble player, I would declare them one ranking higher. This way, if a player or two went up, the team wouldn’t be DQd. There are tools the team captain can use to avoid this. They didn’t use them. They got bit. Don’t blame the league because you chose to disregard their rules.

Without getting into a larger argument, my position is:

1) If my players are not cheating, I expect the super awesome handicap system to accurately assign a handicap. I'm constantly told how top secret and accurate it is if we do the scorekeeping right, etc.

2) In my opinion that certification form exists for one reason. People can sandbag and cheat the session and qualifiers, then to not get caught they manually enter their own skill number. I take exception to the form in general, it allows people who cheat all session to get a free pass by just changing a handicap. My players went through the session and regionals at their handicaps - but whenever the system fails the answer is that I should have just raised their handicaps myself, and before a ball was ever struck.

3) I have any idea of how my players are going to respond to the pressure and equipment of the national tournament. I saw an awful lot of people fold, I have no way of knowing if my members will. We aren't seasoned tournament players here.

My honest opinion of the handicap system is that it worked out there. Players all played better in different matches and they went up because of it - fine. Now they have to give up more weight and I have to manage the lineup. Isn't this the entire point and consequence? We weren't steamrolling people in general a few nice matches. One we won simply because the very last ball was scratched by the opponent.

"The captain could have raised his own handicaps" is an excuse for both the system and an out for the people who cheat all year.
 

Shawn Armstrong

Abooboo No Neck
Silver Member
Without getting into a larger argument, my position is:

1) If my players are not cheating, I expect the super awesome handicap system to accurately assign a handicap. I'm constantly told how top secret and accurate it is if we do the scorekeeping right, etc.

2) In my opinion that certification form exists for one reason. People can sandbag and cheat the session and qualifiers, then to not get caught they manually enter their own skill number. I take exception to the form in general, it allows people who cheat all session to get a free pass by just changing a handicap. My players went through the session and regionals at their handicaps - but whenever the system fails the answer is that I should have just raised their handicaps myself, and before a ball was ever struck.

3) I have any idea of how my players are going to respond to the pressure and equipment of the national tournament. I saw an awful lot of people fold, I have no way of knowing if my members will. We aren't seasoned tournament players here.

My honest opinion of the handicap system is that it worked out there. Players all played better in different matches and they went up because of it - fine. Now they have to give up more weight and I have to manage the lineup. Isn't this the entire point and consequence? We weren't steamrolling people in general a few nice matches. One we won simply because the very last ball was scratched by the opponent.

"The captain could have raised his own handicaps" is an excuse for both the system and an out for the people who cheat all year.

Your flawed analysis and interpretation stated in #2 is the reason you got the boot. That’s on you, and not the APA. Sorry.
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To be certain, from the start, I do believe the actual players involved when they say that their intentions were good from the get go and through all of their competitions. By the letter of the rule you were in the wrong, even though it was no fault of your own.

The apa has a major handicap manipulation problem. You could say they are fighting a war against it, that is the actual scale of it. I can't tell you the number of nonchalant conversations I have heard about keeping innings up and keeping handicap levels where they are. So many that it seems some don't even recognize this as sandbagging. Now there are also a lot of teams that assuredly know that this is against the rules, but the risk is worth the reward to them.

It really seems you guys were an innocent casualty of a war that must be fought. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I do hope something good comes of this and maybe a lot of open communicating may ease some of the damage done.

It's a private organization and everything done is on their terms. They care more about seeming tough on sandbaggers than they do about seeming unfair, as much as that sucks.

Image is the biggest thing here. I think you did yourselves no favors by live streaming all of your matches. Not to say it was wrong, as I have already started I believe it was all in good faith. Perception and publicity are two very, very important things to a company.

When you have a team stepping up to the challenge and beating teams, fair and square, that aren't, those teams tend to want to blame everyone but themselves. So when you have, say, seven teams that you beat running around the room whining about how your 2 plays like a 3 and your 4 plays like a 5 and so on and so forth, that gets a bit of attention. Now couple with all that buzz a live stream on which you noted comments about players appearing to be better than they are, even if the judgement is biased and untrue, you have, in their eyes, a bit of a fire to put out.

They would rather your team go home sore than have the lingering buzz be about the team that maybe even won the event, who knows, being sandbaggers and nothing was done about it.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 

Shawn Armstrong

Abooboo No Neck
Silver Member
The form doesn’t “raise” their handicap. It’s an acknowledgment that this player has the ability to play at a higher ranking than their current handicap. There is no penalty for declaring a player a rank higher than they currently play at. They don’t instantly raise them. This is all addressed at the captains meeting prior to play. Did you attend it?
 

RichSchultz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
By the way folks, I always shout “DEFENSE!” immediately after I shoot one.

I have nothing to hide and I trust both scorekeepers to mark it.
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
T
They would rather your team go home sore than have the lingering buzz be about the team that maybe even won the event, who knows, being sandbaggers and nothing was done about it.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

Which is why no self respecting pool player should dignify their organization.
 

Shawn Armstrong

Abooboo No Neck
Silver Member
Which is why no self respecting pool player should dignify their organization.

All you bashers remind me of the kid that sat beside me in Calculus. He’d say “calculus is stupid”. I’d tell him “no, you just aren’t able to understand it”.

Recurring theme in this thread. Very few people actually understand how the league works. It’s on you to learn their ways, and not on them to cater to your flawed interpretation of how things should work in “your world”.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The form doesn’t “raise” their handicap. It’s an acknowledgment that this player has the ability to play at a higher ranking than their current handicap. There is no penalty for declaring a player a rank higher than they currently play at. They don’t instantly raise them. This is all addressed at the captains meeting prior to play. Did you attend it?
Yeah, they do. But when considering DQ, the cert process is considered. If five went up and zero certed up, that's gonna hurt you. The part that breaks your case is when captains and players come in here and say in one breath "we're all about improving" and say in the next breath "we had two months to practice between the WQ and the Championship, and we didn't think anyone improved" and top it off with things like "teaching stance and stroke" and "several people played the best I've ever seen them play" (APA hears that last one from EVERY team it DQs). The story just doesn't jive. Are you honest people who were just negligent with the form? Maybe, but five up is a LOT. There are two things I'd like to clear up. 1) Honest teams CAN be DQed. Perhaps, if APA believes it as has been stated here, the DQed team/players will get relief from the suspensions. 2) The money from the DQed team goes to the teams it knocked out of the tournament, and those teams can get invited back next year. It actually COSTS APA money to DQ a team. Those of you who say "follow the money" should chew on that for a while.
 

Bic D

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All you bashers remind me of the kid that sat beside me in Calculus. He’d say “calculus is stupid”. I’d tell him “no, you just aren’t able to understand it”.

Recurring theme in this thread. Very few people actually understand how the league works. It’s on you to learn their ways, and not on them to cater to your flawed interpretation of how things should work in “your world”.

Why would you assume the kid didn't understand it? I took calculus, passed it and still thought it was stupid.

People are stating their opinions based on their knowledge of league works. You are assuming that no one on this board understands how a league works. You are stating your opinion as a matter of fact.
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Which is why no self respecting pool player should dignify their organization.
Yup. I begrudgingly play apa nine ball on one of my two pool nights because the pool hall that is 15 mins door to door from my house is only open for apa. The other night I drive 40 mins into portland and play with the rest of the killers. I don't expect too much from it, just like the "extra" practice.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 

Shawn Armstrong

Abooboo No Neck
Silver Member
Yup. I begrudgingly play apa nine ball on one of my two pool nights because the pool hall that is 15 mins door to door from my house is only open for apa. The other night I drive 40 mins into portland and play with the rest of the killers. I don't expect too much from it, just like the "extra" practice.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

Must be a slow day in the “you kids get off my lawn” chat group.
 

Shawn Armstrong

Abooboo No Neck
Silver Member
Why would you assume the kid didn't understand it? I took calculus, passed it and still thought it was stupid.

People are stating their opinions based on their knowledge of league works. You are assuming that no one on this board understands how a league works. You are stating your opinion as a matter of fact.

I’m not assuming anything. Their lack of knowledge of how the league works is out there in plain black and white, in every one of their posts.

Getting back to calculus now....I’m tired of engaging the angry old man club.
 
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