APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
Out of respect for Shawn, I have kept quite throughout this thread.

I was in Vegas during that week, and had a chance to see the team in action.

I saw NO indication of their skill levels being out of line from what I would expect to see from a top flight team in a national tourney.

I saw smart play on their part, and I also saw many of their opponents fold under the pressure of the situation.

For that, they got penalized.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Just my opinion, having 5 players get raised and bragging on Facebook that you “destroyed” the team that finished first is probably not a good look.

The people on the Facebook page don’t seem too upset about not playing APA anymore either.

Just curious, but where do you see anywhere on the Facebook link I supplied where I used the word "destroyed"? And, the folks replying have already expressed their hurt and sorrow for the ban on their own threads; they were commenting more on the content of my post, which was about how I described the close friendship on the team, to the point of voluntarily relinquishing their 8-ball Regionals winnings to help pay for my and one other player's trip to Vegas.

-Sean
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
It’s hard to follow exactly what you’re laying down. But it sound shady as hell. Restructuring a roster after the spot was already won?

No, read it again. Has NOTHING to do with restructuring anything, much less a roster.

-Sean
 

ChicagoJoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just curious, but where do you see anywhere on the Facebook link I supplied where I used the word "destroyed"? And, the folks replying have already expressed their hurt and sorrow for the ban on their own threads; they were commenting more on the content of my post, which was about how I described the close friendship on the team, to the point of voluntarily relinquishing their 8-ball Regionals winnings to help pay for my and one other player's trip to Vegas.

-Sean

It’s not on the link you provided. Somebody on your team must have started a group called freefiveballcombo.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No, read it again. Has NOTHING to do with restructuring anything, much less a roster.

-Sean

Well you didn’t type out your thoughts very well then. As an ‘honorary’ member, did you ever go into the team/player area? And rules state that if two player get moved up in skill level the team should be disqualified, how did you manage to get 5 players moved up without being disqualified before? Lots of ignoring of the APA rulebook going on here.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the explanation, and it surely sucks for the team. It has to be a tough call for apa as well. I dont know that I've ever heard of a team having all members raised at the same time. Kudos to the coach for not laying down.

I wonder what the apa looks at when making a decision like this? I agree that focus, practice, and playing intelligently can lead one to play above their established skill level...but how far above are we talking? If an sl 3 who averages 10 innings a game all of a sudden starts beating sl 5's in 3 innings, I would have questions for sure. It is hard to get a complete picture without knowing just how far above their established level they played.

Regardless, my opinion means nothing, but it sounds like you got a great group of friends that genuinely look out for each other. That's worth much more than an apa tourney.
 

fishless

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On a side note...

This is why we, the jury/peanut gallery, shouldnt be too quick to deliberate before hearing all the facts.

I suppose the retarded thread title didnt help much either.

Yeah, the OP gave the impression they had won the championship already, he also gave the impression it was 8-ball and Sean was a playing member. Now we know they were not DQ'd after the final match, it was 9-ball being played and Sean was a honorary member of the team.

Cheers,
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
boo hoo........... sand bagging is rampant.......... are you honestly telling me that they do not play to control their skill level????

It's easy to be sure that you don't go up.... run up innings and play against lower skill levels after you qualify...................

I you get DQ'd........... you probably deserve it...............

quit whining...........

I shot well in Vegas.... I was asked why I was not a 7.... I said that I am close to going up.... I play every game to win..... my opponent said "you probably have a lot of innings"

BINGO................ a sand bagger speaking............ anyone that mentions innings or counts innings is a sand bagger....................

play fair........ mark defensive shots and keep score honestly.......... if you can't win in APA.......... you probably aren't as good as you think you are............

Kim
 

logical

apart of their 'semi public'
Silver Member
Just one more reason I am glad I am not into Facebook at all, don't play in a league...and am starting to question this place.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well you didn’t type out your thoughts very well then. As an ‘honorary’ member, did you ever go into the team/player area? And rules state that if two player get moved up in skill level the team should be disqualified, how did you manage to get 5 players moved up without being disqualified before? Lots of ignoring of the APA rulebook going on here.

<facepalm> Ok, let's take this in pieces, since what I thought to be (and others commenting on it agreed) was a very lucid post:

1. Both the 8-ball and 9-ball teams out of the same bar won Regionals and qualified for Vegas.
2. Many of the players are common/shared, meaning they play on both teams.

Are you with me so far?

3. Because we couldn't send both teams to Vegas as that would've incurred a two-week stay for those common/shared players, the captain (also a common player for both teams) had to make the difficult decision to send only the 9-ball team.
4. While this serves the common/shared players just fine, it alienates two players who only play on the 8-ball team. I was one of those players.
5. All members of the 8-ball team therefore received the cash equivalent of winning the Regionals. The common/shared players then chose - out of the goodness of their heart - to pool their winnings together and pay for my and that other player's trip to Vegas.

Still with me?

6. "Honorary member" was not to imply that we played, coached, or otherwise entered the playing arena at any time during match play. It was just an expression to mean a spectator wearing a team shirt.

If you read my post carefully, you would've seen where I am only an 8-ball player; I don't even have a 9-ball skill level established because I don't play 9-ball in APA. It would've been impossible to field me or use me in any team activities.

My captain has been doing this league a long time. He knows the rulebook.

-Sean
 

WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
No roster changes

Hi folks,

A couple more clarifications:

The roster had zero changes from session, local playoffs, regionals and vegas.

Sean was never coaching or in the arena etc. he was either in the stands with friends and family or playing minis.

I don't believe the rule of two players going up is accurate, if it is then that rule was not being enforced. We were watched and under handicap review several times, our players went up over the course of the 9 matches we won. I am aware of other teams with more than two players going up as well.

I can't speak to the thread title, nor do I think it's relevant.

Here are a few screenshots of messages from two years ago when was asking Sean to join my newly created 8 ball team and one of the pocket size, shelf and facing angles.

https://imgur.com/a/ufuitW5

Take what you like from it, everyone is going to have their own opinion; but I'd like it to be informed. You have to understand, we are being labeled as cheaters at a national level. Because of that I believe that the conversations at the very least prove the intent of the team.

Why is it so hard for people to believe that given the difference in local competition in my NY area, the difference in equipment, and great team chemistry with a little luck five players can't wind up playing a single skill level up over the course of 9 matches? Shouldn't your team HAVE to play better to win there? Nope, must be cheating. A two year ban for my players is excessive and unwarranted.

Going to bed after a long and emotional week, I can check back later if anyone is interested in any more facts.

b
 
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Cron

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
anyone that mentions innings or counts innings is a sand bagger.
Kim

This isn't true. I know at least 2 people who play in the APA that will dump a game if they know they'll win the match. This comes down to people wanting to play competitively, longer. For some, you'll have to see it from the point of view that they're older and enjoy shooting competitively and they don't take the bait of "Vegas". If they forget Vegas, then it's a double edge sword to watch someone dump a game in a match they'll ultimately win because other players have to sit around longer waiting. But, people understand why they do it. I'm not implying it's right, but depending on whether you care about Vegas, how long your drive is to the match is and how often you get to play competitively, it's a factor. Anyone who isn't in a league has a possibility of understanding that if you're going to win anyways, why not play longer and enjoy it.

I like playing in tournaments were if you win you win, you lose you lose. No backend questionable curve dictating who is better, just the results of me vs. you style play. I think a lot of people think everyone should be a winner, thus concoct these problematic systems. I want to beat the player, not the system.
 
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SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know this situation, but surely this is hyperbole. Killing pool? Heck for a large part of the population around here, apa is the only exposure folks get to pool.

I'm sure predator, kami, and all the other companies would hate to see the apa fold up...

APA league pool has nothing to do with old school pool. The players don't compare. They equipment doesnt compare. The games played don't compare.

Leagues played with simplified rules on simplified equipment don't produce the same level of players. The shift to league play is why this country can't produce players anymore. Beating a housewife in a 5 to 3 race on a bar box isn't going to get us there.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA league pool has nothing to do with old school pool. The players don't compare. They equipment doesnt compare. The games played don't compare.

Leagues played with simplified rules on simplified equipment don't produce the same level of players. The shift to league play is why this country can't produce players anymore. Beating a housewife in a 5 to 3 race on a bar box isn't going to get us there.
"Beating a housewife...." is freakin' CLASSIC and so true. League pool is a social outing not pool in a serious sense. At least APA is like that. BCA/CSI leagues do have some really good players in them.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
Prior to going to Las Vegas the APA has each team fills out certification packets. This
gives each qualifying team an opportunity to have players play at their true skill level.
For example, you know your S/L 5 is playing well and could very well be playing as an
S/L 6, you can certify him as an S/L 6 and not risk his being DQ’d at the national level
for having his skill level raised. There can be an argument made to say that if you don’t
take this opportunity then you are the sand bagger. People do tend to raise their game
when play starts in Las Vegas, captains know when someone is on the cusp, not anticipating
a raise in skill level is their own fault, and if your team is winning you can expect skill
levels to go up. At the national level skill levels are evaluated after each match, in weekly
play you might see stats entered every week or two and it’s not very likely that a group
gets together and talks about whether or not the skill levels are correct like at the national level.
I doubt anyone tried to cheat anybody, the fact is (as described) too many skill levels
we’re raised because the captain didn’t certify his players at their true and correct skill
level and when that happened they were disqualified. The APA was adhering to their
rule standard, you can hardly blame them for having rules in place.
 

WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
I'd argue that the equalizer handicap system is (or should be) assigning the proper handicap if the player is not sandbagging, dumping or whatever. I don't know how my players will show up at a national level, we've never competed there before.

To expect that I will guess that my players will play the best games of their lives, under the most pressure they've ever felt and also guess their handicap seems like a flaw in the automated system.

The only reasons I can see for certifying at a higher skill level than what the APA system has assigned is if I've been keeping someones handicap low artificially and am worried about getting caught.

We played fair, trusted the system.
 
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Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
My team had 3 players raised one skill level after we won the trip to Vegas. I didn't agree with it then, and after being there, still don't agree with it.

We tried to lobby for those players to be brought back down to their original skill level, but it was not going to happen.

This is the problem with only capturing, ball count, innings and safeties as measurable on the score sheets. Seeing players in action means a whole lot more.

IMHO



Prior to going to Las Vegas the APA has each team fills out certification packets. This
gives each qualifying team an opportunity to have players play at their true skill level.
For example, you know your S/L 5 is playing well and could very well be playing as an
S/L 6, you can certify him as an S/L 6 and not risk his being DQ’d at the national level
for having his skill level raised. There can be an argument made to say that if you don’t
take this opportunity then you are the sand bagger. People do tend to raise their game
when play starts in Las Vegas, captains know when someone is on the cusp, not anticipating
a raise in skill level is their own fault, and if your team is winning you can expect skill
levels to go up. At the national level skill levels are evaluated after each match, in weekly
play you might see stats entered every week or two and it’s not very likely that a group
gets together and talks about whether or not the skill levels are correct like at the national level.
I doubt anyone tried to cheat anybody, the fact is (as described) too many skill levels
we’re raised because the captain didn’t certify his players at their true and correct skill
level and when that happened they were disqualified. The APA was adhering to their
rule standard, you can hardly blame them for having rules in place.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
I'd argue that the equalizer handicap system is (or should be) assigning the proper handicap if the player is not sandbagging, dumping or whatever. I don't know how my players will show up at a national level, we've never competed there before.

To expect that I will guess that my players will play the best games of their lives, under the most pressure they've ever felt and also guess their handicap seems like a flaw in the automated system.

The only reasons I can see for certifying at a higher skill level than what the APA system has assigned is if I've been keeping someones handicap low artificially and am worried about getting caught.

We played fair, trusted the system.

And it would be a good argument, but at the national level there are more safeguards
taken to assure that correct skill levels are being maintained. It seems to me that if you
have an issue it should be with your LO and not with the APA organization. Your LO
is the one responsible for entering statistics and generating a correct skill level.
Did he (or she) even mention that you might want certify players at a more correct
skill level?
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
My team had 3 players raised one skill level after we won the trip to Vegas. I didn't agree with it then, and after being there, still don't agree with it.

We tried to lobby for those players to be brought back down to their original skill level, but it was not going to happen.

This is the problem with only capturing, ball count, innings and safeties as measurable on the score sheets. Seeing players in action means a whole lot more.

IMHO

I can only speak to our area here. Our LO doesn’t play on a team and rarely gets out to
see any individual player. The APA is huge, watching any one single player enough to
have a useful knowledge of that single players ability is a lot to ask. So what the APA
has deemed to be enough is the information detailed on the score sheets.
Enough written complaints will generate a visit from the LO, but as you can imagine that
doesn’t happen very often. I think our LO here counts on us just being adults, there are
reasonably few problems
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
As I am quite sure that in their local league, the handicaps were justified, based on the information captured on the score sheet.

Unfortunately the score sheet doesn't show slopped in balls or an opponent that chokes.

Speaking for my team I want to see if the 6 we played from Florida, moved up after hammering our six. That player benefited from over 10 balls crapped in the set.

Also those with Facebook accounts can watch their matches, they live streamed them.

Watch and judge for yourself.







I can only speak to our area here. Our LO doesn’t play on a team and rarely gets out to
see any individual player. The APA is huge, watching any one single player enough to
have a useful knowledge of that single players ability is a lot to ask. So what the APA
has deemed to be enough is the information detailed on the score sheets.
Enough written complaints will generate a visit from the LO, but as you can imagine that
doesn’t happen very often. I think our LO here counts on us just being adults, there are
reasonably few problems
 
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