APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

[Shawn Armstrong]

I don't think many believe you or your friends are sandbaggers. I think it is obvious that your friends' team played hard and well only to find themselves in a predicament. You shouldn't translate some posters general defense of all things APA, as an indictment on you and your friends.

As far as the time and resources working on this, I agree it is worth it but for a different reason. It may help other team captains and LOs to avoid such a predicament in the future.

+1

I was at the event for Masters. I saw some of the matches in question, as I had friends in the same draw. I have a much different take on how things went down, but opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. His team was disqualified. There are merits to both sides of the argument. But the 2 in question did NOT play like a 2.

 

[jokrswylde]

You're like, the only one that refuses to see that the APA clearly is rife with sand-baggers, lay-downers and handicap manipulators.

There's screenshots above your post, that clearly indicate that lots of people don't like it (including myself) and are aware that it's happening with MANY teams.

So much so that it becomes the reason to not want to join a t team!! There's something fundamentally wrong with that. I think the people you talk to and the articles you read about this might be a little skewed a certain direction.

I can't tell you how many conversations I've had just like the one above..... many others like us, too.

The problem is that too often in today's world there is no room for compromise or agreeing to disagree. Folks who have had a bad experience with leagues come on here and makes posts saying "leagues suck", or "it's not for serious players", or "you could play me to play in that shitty league." (Not talking about you specifically, but there are plenty of posts along those lines). When those posts happen, the people who really like playing league and get a lot of fulfillment from it, are immediately on the defensive and come back with the "pool snobs" or "pool elitists" posts.

Look, I know there is sandbagging that goes on. But, in my league at least, it is the exception rather than the norm. And if it does happen, it isn't such a horrible thing that it overrides the positive aspects. When it happens, we just make a mental note and move on.

 

[alstl]

After reading Sean's most recent post I smell a rat. A player was 2-2 and was raised. Another player was 1-2 and was raised.

Not sure how much money is involved and how much a lawyer would cost but I do believe Sean's team was screwed. It's possible the APA was tipped off to the Fargo rating which wasn't the same guy as the one on Sean's team.

I would take a close look at whoever made the decision to boot your team and whether they had a connection to a team/region/league operator that benefited. Looks to me like funny business took place.

 

[RichSchultz]

After reading Sean's most recent post I smell a rat. A player was 2-2 and was raised. Another player was 1-2 and was raised.

Not sure how much money is involved and how much a lawyer would cost but I do believe Sean's team was screwed. It's possible the APA was tipped off to the Fargo rating which wasn't the same guy as the one on Sean's team.

I would take a close look at whoever made the decision to boot your team and whether they had a connection to a team/region/league operator that benefited. Looks to me like funny business took place.

Just a hypothetical here, NOT an accusation, but:

Theoretically, a team that is super good, and has confidence that one player could make up for another’s loss....the 2 could lose, knowing they’d still be ok. A League Watcher would notice that.

 

[Bic D]

+1

I was at the event for Masters. I saw some of the matches in question, as I had friends in the same draw. I have a much different take on how things went down, but opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. His team was disqualified. There are merits to both sides of the argument. But the 2 in question did NOT play like a 2.

Not for nothing but...

We had an 8-ball tourny Monday night. About 13-14 guys and one girl. This girl probably isn't even a 2 by APA standards. No stroke to speak of, jumps up on her shots, no strategy but if the balls are right in front of her, she can pot 2 or 3 in a row if the dots are connected.

They had a few weeks of women's tournaments a few months ago where 8 women would play and this girl, while better than most, didn't finish in the top 3.

Long story short....Monday night, she managed to beat several good players and took 3rd place in the tournament. I didn't see the games to know if she was playing her best in life or if the guys were F****** up.

This will probably never happen again but on that night...that 2 played well beyond herself.

 

[Bic D]

After reading Sean's most recent post I smell a rat. A player was 2-2 and was raised. Another player was 1-2 and was raised.

Not sure how much money is involved and how much a lawyer would cost but I do believe Sean's team was screwed. It's possible the APA was tipped off to the Fargo rating which wasn't the same guy as the one on Sean's team.

I would take a close look at whoever made the decision to boot your team and whether they had a connection to a team/region/league operator that benefited. Looks to me like funny business took place.

In every situation, criminal or civil, always follow the money.

I don't know anything from nothing but if I thought something smelled fishy... my first question would have been...Who received the money as a result of the disqualification?

 

[RichSchultz]

Just a hypothetical here, NOT an accusation, but:

Theoretically, a team that is super good, and has confidence that one player could make up for another’s loss....the 2 could lose, knowing they’d still be ok. A League Watcher would notice that.

And yes, it is absolutely the responsibility of the higher skill plyrs to help the lower ones. But expect them to go up as a result!

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Not for nothing but...

We had an 8-ball tourny Monday night. About 13-14 guys and one girl. This girl probably isn't even a 2 by APA standards. No stroke to speak of, jumps up on her shots, no strategy but if the balls are right in front of her, she can pot 2 or 3 in a row if the dots are connected.

They had a few weeks of women's tournaments a few months ago where 8 women would play and this girl, while better than most, didn't finish in the top 3.

Long story short....Monday night, she managed to beat several good players and took 3rd place in the tournament. I didn't see the games to know if she was playing her best in life or if the guys were F****** up.

This will probably never happen again but on that night...that 2 played well beyond herself.

People keep equating this to someone having a standout night. Without boring the general public, there are tools at the team’s disposal to avoid the very situation that happened to Sean’s team. At the start of the tournament, you are given a team form. You sign it. And declare handicaps. For the past 20 years, any player I’ve had that was a bubble player, I would declare them one ranking higher. This way, if a player or two went up, the team wouldn’t be DQd. There are tools the team captain can use to avoid this. They didn’t use them. They got bit. Don’t blame the league because you chose to disregard their rules.

 

[alstl]

Just a hypothetical here, NOT an accusation, but:

Theoretically, a team that is super good, and has confidence that one player could make up for another’s loss....the 2 could lose, knowing they’d still be ok. A League Watcher would notice that.

In order to get to the finals of a big handicapped tournament like that a team would have to have some players winning and some players losing. Unless the league watcher is a mind reader he can't raise a person who is 2-2 and another who is 1-2. The team was booted based upon an opinion and no solid facts.

I'd look for a lawyer who works on contingency.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

There seems to be a general lack of knowledge amongst AZB as to how the equalizer system works. A loss doesn’t guarantee that a low rank will stay low. If you don’t understand this, you should refrain from comments regarding the system, and handicaps.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

In order to get to the finals of a big handicapped tournament like that a team would have to have some players winning and some players losing. Unless the league watcher is a mind reader he can't raise a person who is 2-2 and another who is 1-2. The team was booted based upon an opinion and no solid facts.

I'd look for a lawyer who works on contingency.

You don’t understand how the scoring system works. Wins and losses mean nothing on their own. I don’t really want or care to explain the system. But your posts are way off. As are most peoples in this thread.

 

[I Got Lucky]

I haven’t seen too many people calling you guys cheaters/baggers. Mostly i see people just acknowledging that the written rule was broken. But they aren’t making a judgement beyond that. I know I am not judging you...just stating that it is unfortunate that the rule was broken

What rule was broken? The APA moved all the players up and then DQd them. What bullsh!t.

What rule did they break?

Remember folks...when you get to vegas....play average pool or get booted!!!!

 

[trentfromtoledo]

THIS HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.....

My question is this: How is this a surprise to anyone? It has happened so much it is EXPECTED by anyone who knows APA'S mode of operation....


APA is one of the best business models(from a profit only perspective) out there in pool and people expect that it is FAIR ??? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What a joke.

Anyone who plays that league should know all of its ups and downs.

Trent from Toledo

 

[mchnhed]

Amazing that 9 pages were devoted to 'leagues' !
Leagues weren't started for fun.
They were started to make money !
And that is what they do very well.
They fill pool rooms nite after nite for money.
Now, in this day, they keep a lot of rooms alive.
But for me, its sad that pool has been turned into bowling !
Pushout forever !

I would love pool to turn into bowling success wise.
Bowling ally’s in my town. 5 (and more not far out of town)
Pool halls in my town. 0

If you want pool to thrive someone has to make money

Bowling has very few leagues nowadays and are hurting except for weekends “open play” cosmic bowling.

Brunswick and AMF sold out to foreign companies years ago.

Pool is becoming a lot like bowling......extinct.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

THIS HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.....

My question is this: How is this a surprise to anyone? It has happened so much it is EXPECTED by anyone who knows APA'S mode of operation....


APA is one of the best business models(from a profit only perspective) out there in pool and people expect that it is FAIR ??? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What a joke.

Anyone who plays that league should know all of its ups and downs.

Trent from Toledo

Trent, the system actually is fair if everyone plays to their full potential, and abides by the rules. And when you say this happens every year, when only 1 team in 2000 gets the boot, that’s a pretty good success rate. Pool players on here crack me up. They get it right 99.9% of the time, yet toxic threads pop up because the 0.1% don’t know how to play nicely with the other kids in the sandbox.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Trent, the system actually is fair if everyone plays to their full potential, and abides by the rules. And when you say this happens every year, when only 1 team in 2000 gets the boot, that’s a pretty good success rate. Pool players on here crack me up. They get it right 99.9% of the time, yet toxic threads pop up because the 0.1% don’t know how to play nicely with the other kids in the sandbox.

APA is notorious for this stuff. Anyone who plays knows this, it should not be a surprise.
Yes, "cheaters" are the reason why, but, we know they aint going anywhere. Is there a way to fix this, nope, apa brings in tens of millions of dollars every year. I think it is hilarious that this is some kind of "NEWS" on the forum. I am sure there are 100 other posts saying the same thing.

Trent from Toledo

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

APA is notorious for this stuff. Anyone who plays knows this, it should not be a surprise.
Yes, "cheaters" are the reason why, but, we know they aint going anywhere. Is there a way to fix this, nope, apa brings in tens of millions of dollars every year. I think it is hilarious that this is some kind of "NEWS" on the forum. I am sure there are 100 other posts saying the same thing.

Trent from Toledo

All handicapped leagues have some issues. This isn’t exclusive to the APA. Stop painting with broad strokes. There are several areas that run without issue. The main culprits are coming from a few regions. When this happens, the head office has a stern talk with the league operator. They take no joy in doing this. I know a lot of the refs and officials by proxy. No one wanted to ban a team. But within the rules they are given, they had no choice. Trust me, the league wants things to run smoothly.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

All handicapped leagues have some issues. This isn’t exclusive to the APA. Stop painting with broad strokes. There are several areas that run without issue. The main culprits are coming from a few regions. When this happens, the head office has a stern talk with the league operator. They take no joy in doing this. I know a lot of the refs and officials by proxy. No one wanted to ban a team. But within the rules they are given, they had no choice. Trust me, the league wants things to run smoothly.

LOL. Are you serious? I WILL paint with broad strokes: THAT LEAGUE IS A JOKE. I was being nice and not putting out any bad vibes, but, this is truly how I feel. Opinions are not facts, I know this and was only stating what my opinion was. Have a nice day!

Trent from Toledo

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

LOL. Are you serious? I WILL paint with broad strokes: THAT LEAGUE IS A JOKE. I was being nice and not putting out any bad vibes, but, this is truly how I feel. Opinions are not facts, I know this and was only stating what my opinion was. Have a nice day!

Trent from Toledo

I don’t think leagues are a joke. However, I find people that make fun of leagues, generally are a joke.

You have a great day as well

 

[trentfromtoledo]

I don’t think leagues are a joke. However, I find people that make fun of leagues, generally are a joke.

You have a great day as well

Don't try and play that trick, I was not making fun, I was stating my opinion. I don't care what you think of other people. If leagues are your thing COOL. I think they are money making machines/ great business's and from a players( I love to play pool ) perspective they are a joke.

Trent from Toledo