APA Strategy

[whitewolf]

Originally Posted by BasementDweller
I haven't played in the APA but I can see how the strategizing would be fun (or at least interesting).

What I don't get about your method is: If the opposing team has their anchor still available and you put up one of your worst players while trailing 0-2, why wouldn't they just put up their anchor and finish you off? It seems like you are taking quite a chance here. I could see how you could maybe get away with this during the regular season, but once the playoffs roll around I wouldn't think you could play it this way.

Am I wrong?

Not trying to speak for Cory but because I agree with him, my answer is, that's the risk you run. There is a good chance that could happen but most teams are afraid you're throwing up some secret weapon and don't want to run the risk of sacrificing their hammer and leaving themselves vulnerable the rest of the match[/U].

Boy, I have heard it all now. I would just throw up my 7 and just polish you off.

BTW, have any of you guys taken a team to Vegas?!!!!!! I have.

 

[Koop]

Originally Posted by BasementDweller
I haven't played in the APA but I can see how the strategizing would be fun (or at least interesting).

What I don't get about your method is: If the opposing team has their anchor still available and you put up one of your worst players while trailing 0-2, why wouldn't they just put up their anchor and finish you off? It seems like you are taking quite a chance here. I could see how you could maybe get away with this during the regular season, but once the playoffs roll around I wouldn't think you could play it this way.

Am I wrong?



Boy, I have heard it all now. I would just throw up my 7 and just polish you off.

BTW, have any of you guys taken a team to Vegas?!!!!!! I have.

Yes, I have twice. And what happens when you're 7 can't polish off my strong 4 in a 5-2 race? What then?

 

[Total_Chaos13]

Yes, I have twice. And what happens when you're 7 can't polish off my strong 4 in a 5-2 race? What then?

That is exactly what happen to us in the finals in MC. Our 3 lost to their 3 0-2 in 7 innings total. Our 4 (me) beat their 4 3-1 in 26 innings with 9 safeties. Our 5 beat their 4 4-0 in 24 innings. We where up 2-1 and they put up a 4. We had our 3 and 7 left. We put op our 7 trying to close the match. Normally we would never leave our 3 to play a hill-hill match in the finals but we decided as a team to try and close it out. Our 7 wins the lag breaks dry, their 4 runs out. 4 breaks makes a few balls misses our 7 runs out, 1-1. Our 7 b&r up 2-1. Our 7 breaks dry, back and forth a few innings our 7 plays a lock down safe. Their 4 kicks out of the safe and pockets his ball then runs out. 4 wins 2-1, 7 innings total with our 7 playing 3 safeties the last game. Now we are tied 2-2 in the finals with our 3 playing their 4. She ( my wife) plays great and beats the 4 2-2 in 15 innings. We win mc because our 3 bailed us out and their 7 couldn't make it because of work so they played 5 4 4 4 3.

 

[BasementDweller]

Yes, I have twice. And what happens when you're 7 can't polish off my strong 4 in a 5-2 race? What then?

That's when I would start accepting applications for a new 7. Maybe even do open interviews.

 

[boyersj]

Yes, I have twice. And what happens when you're 7 can't polish off my strong 4 in a 5-2 race? What then?

If a team's 7 can't beat all skill levels other than a better 7 in a playoff scenario, the team WILL not do well regardless of what happens. I am a SL7 and not necessarily a great one but we must have the ability to adjust our play to accomodate. On a "regular" league night, there may be the chance I will get beat because of outside influences (family, work, etc) where my focus isn't where it needs to be to win the match but if I am playing in a single elimination tournament to go to Vegas I will be at peak level and so will any other 7 who is serious about going to los Vegas to compete.

If a player is severely under rated then the handicap can prove to be too much but by playoff time this should really not be an issue.

 

[Koop]

Listen, not trying to argue here but to say that the 7 is a lock is not true.
I've seen it numerous times and also, it depends greatly on where you're playing. I've seen 7's at the National level that would be 5's in my area. Then I have played 6's in other areas that are STRONG 7's where I play.

My point is, you're already down 2-0. You now need 3 wins out of 3 matches to move on. Do you really want to leave the pressure of that final match to your weakest player left? If you would then that's cool. I wouldn't.

 

[Koop]

That is exactly what happen to us in the finals in MC. Our 3 lost to their 3 0-2 in 7 innings total. Our 4 (me) beat their 4 3-1 in 26 innings with 9 safeties. Our 5 beat their 4 4-0 in 24 innings. We where up 2-1 and they put up a 4. We had our 3 and 7 left. We put op our 7 trying to close the match. Normally we would never leave our 3 to play a hill-hill match in the finals but we decided as a team to try and close it out. Our 7 wins the lag breaks dry, their 4 runs out. 4 breaks makes a few balls misses our 7 runs out, 1-1. Our 7 b&r up 2-1. Our 7 breaks dry, back and forth a few innings our 7 plays a lock down safe. Their 4 kicks out of the safe and pockets his ball then runs out. 4 wins 2-1, 7 innings total with our 7 playing 3 safeties the last game. Now we are tied 2-2 in the finals with our 3 playing their 4. She ( my wife) plays great and beats the 4 2-2 in 15 innings. We win mc because our 3 bailed us out and their 7 couldn't make it because of work so they played 5 4 4 4 3.

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about and nearly the same thing happened to us in 2008 when we made it to Vegas.
I came out first as a 6 and they put a strong 4 on me. I win.
We come out with a strong 4 and he wins. We are up 2-0.
Now, we sacrifice and put a 3 out and they come out with a strong 5 and they win. 2-1 us.
They have a 5 and a 4 left. We have a 7 and a 3. They come out with the 5 so the captain puts himself up(7) and the 5 is a rack runner. Our 7 loses and now it's up to our 3, my ex-wife, in the hill hill match to go to Vegas.
The only saving grace was that the 4 she played was SUPER nervous and she had nerves of steel.

Although it worked out for us I still thought she should have played the 4th match and had our 7 anchor for the win. I guess there's no exact science to it but I would just rather leave the pressure to the high numbers and not the low.

 

[Koop]

If a player is severely under rated then the handicap can prove to be too much but by playoff time this should really not be an issue.

You should have seen the 6 I played in Vegas in 2008. We were in 33rd place playing for 17th out of over 700 teams. This guy had plenty of matches under his belt to where his handicap should have been right.
Well, I win the lag and B&R. I break dry, he runs out. he breaks dry, I run out. I break dry, he runs out. 2-2 and no one has missed a ball yet.
Finally, he breaks and I finally miss a fairly routine shot.
He beat me 5-2 in 0 innings with one safety where he locked me up.

The real sucky thing. They advanced past us and then got DQ'd the next round. They also had a 5 that stroked the ball like Bustamante. Toughest team I've ever seen and we were deep into the tournament.

 

[BasementDweller]

You're logic really doesn't make much sense.

You are down 0-2. If you lose another match you are out of the tournament. How can this knowledge be hidden from your weakest player? No matter when you put them up it is do or die. So, you're saying that your weakest player can handle playing when it's a do or die situation down 0-2, but just not when it's 2-2?

I suppose the tension can mount as you get closer to 2-2, but in a tournament setting I don't see how it would make that much difference as far as the total pressure is concerned. Actually, at 2-2 both players would be feeling the pressure, instead of just your weakest player. So, I would think playing them last would be the better option.

Lastly, when you are down 0-2, you really can't look to game 5. It's sort of like in the baseball playoffs - when a team is facing an elimination game, they don't sit out their well rested ace because he's their best pitcher and he'll give them their best chance of winning the deciding game in game 5. They would pitch him the next game just to try to stay alive.

I guess there's more than 1 way to skin a cat and all that...

interesting stuff

 

[Total_Chaos13]

Matching up is as much a part of winning the round as anything. Every time I see strong teams that should win lose because they didn't play the match-ups or tried to win the first 3 with no decent shooters left to match up with other teams higher handicaps when they don't win the first 3. Its not about winning the first 3 its about winning any 3 of the possible 5.

I also see teams lose because they try to play everyone over the course of the tournament. They win the first round because they shot their stronger 4 and 5 then lose because they shot there weaker 4 and 5 the next round. Our team knows that the best 5 that give us a chance to win play period. if that means you don't play you just don't play. Our 2 hasn't complained one time about not shooting when we were handling her cash after MC 2 times or she was flying back from Vegas last year! But she also knows that if and when handicaps go up she will be counted on and we will have her ready to play.

I see all the comments about controlling the last 2 matches but you have to get to the last 2 matches first. We always make the other team put up first. That allows us to match up against them first to try to take the first match. Winning the first game is a huge as it puts the other team on the defensive and allows us to follow our game plan that works for our team. Then if they tie it up 1-1 then it has become a race to 3 so we get match up against them in the third game. We almost never leave our 3's to play the last match, but it happened once with great results. We play 7 5 4 3 3 and have another 3 and a 2 on the roster. If we win the toss we make them put of first. If they throw a 4 or 5 that we know we match up and if we don't know them we come out 4 or 5 to win the first game. We almost always put up one of our female 3's the second game and most teams will then try to throw a weaker 4 or their 2-3 on her. They don't realize that our female 3 will win that match more time than she will lose it, both our female 3's have played in multiple MC/cities and both played and won 2 matches in Vegas last year. Both can make balls on an open table. If all goes to plan we are up 2-0 with them putting up the 3rd match. Most will come out eh gate with their best player so we throw our other 3 on them. If they win great if they lose we just took out their best player with our 4 or 5 and our 7 still to play.

We went to Vegas last year using that strategy the past year we have won 2 MC, are 1-2 in cites, play in 2 teams with mostly the same people on both. 8 ball team won cites and 9 ball lost to a team of sandbaggers. We lose the flip and have to put up first so we go with our 5 (me) and they counter with a 2. I win the lag and break the first rack, made one ball ( 6 ball ) on the break , then make the 1 & 2, missed a breakout on the 3 and hooked myself. gave up ball in hand to a 2 and the 2 runs out with back to back bank shots on the 8 and 9, score 3 to 7 0 innings. 2 breaks and runs 4 more balls before playing safe on me to end the first inning. a 38-19 ball count just when to 35 - 8 race in 1 inning. I made a few more balls here and there and played safe but so did the 2. Final ball count 12 to 19, score 2-18 in 5 innings. We are down 18-2 after the first game our 3 loses to their 3 8-12. Our 7 plays their 6, score tied 15-15 after 3 rack then our 7 gets a 2 pack put on him by the 6 to go down 15 - 35 in a 46-55 race loses 15-5 in 6 innings. Our 5 plays but their 4 only needs 10 balls to win and gets them by breaking and running the first rack, our 5 never got to the table

 

[Total_Chaos13]

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about and nearly the same thing happened to us in 2008 when we made it to Vegas.
I came out first as a 6 and they put a strong 4 on me. I win.
We come out with a strong 4 and he wins. We are up 2-0.
Now, we sacrifice and put a 3 out and they come out with a strong 5 and they win. 2-1 us.
They have a 5 and a 4 left. We have a 7 and a 3. They come out with the 5 so the captain puts himself up(7) and the 5 is a rack runner. Our 7 loses and now it's up to our 3, my ex-wife, in the hill hill match to go to Vegas.
The only saving grace was that the 4 she played was SUPER nervous and she had nerves of steel.

Although it worked out for us I still thought she should have played the 4th match and had our 7 anchor for the win. I guess there's no exact science to it but I would just rather leave the pressure to the high numbers and not the low.

Exactly why have never played it that way again read my other post and see what we do now to avoid that. The final for us should have been our 3 against there 7. The 7 was going to play the final match but ran in from work after they had already started the final match. He was pissed that his team didn't stall but they really couldn't have stalled long enough for him to get there. Oh and after the fact found out the 4 that beat our 7 owns and runs a bar and is a 6-7 all day long, but because he only shoots on his team when they are home at his bar he gets drunk and loses so he stays a 4. Needless to say he wasn't drinking during mc.

 

[Koop]

Exactly why have never played it that way again read my other post and see what we do now to avoid that. The final for us should have been our 3 against there 7. The 7 was going to play the final match but ran in from work after they had already started the final match. He was pissed that his team didn't stall but they really couldn't have stalled long enough for him to get there. Oh and after the fact found out the 4 that beat our 7 owns and runs a bar and is a 6-7 all day long, but because he only shoots on his team when they are home at his bar he gets drunk and loses so he stays a 4. Needless to say he wasn't drinking during mc.

Yeah, there are multiple ways to skin a cat. More than anything, it has to do with the players involved and whether they can stand the heat. Even some of the most skilled players can wilt under pressure.

Anywho, it's worked for us in the past but not always.

 

[stumpie71]

We always play for the back end of our matches. If we know the competition and are down 2-0 we will play what gives us our best chance to win the last 3. We usually start 5-4 5-3 or 5-5. It depends on the first match so we can finish with either 4/5 and 7 or 6 for our last 2 matches. It has served us well where we have those options for our last 2 or 3 matches. We make a point of having two 3's or a 2 and a 3 on the roster for the flexibility along with 2 4's and 2 5's.

 

[Total_Chaos13]

You're logic really doesn't make much sense.

You are down 0-2. If you lose another match you are out of the tournament. How can this knowledge be hidden from your weakest player? No matter when you put them up it is do or die. So, you're saying that your weakest player can handle playing when it's a do or die situation down 0-2, but just not when it's 2-2?

I suppose the tension can mount as you get closer to 2-2, but in a tournament setting I don't see how it would make that much difference as far as the total pressure is concerned. Actually, at 2-2 both players would be feeling the pressure, instead of just your weakest player. So, I would think playing them last would be the better option.

Lastly, when you are down 0-2, you really can't look to game 5. It's sort of like in the baseball playoffs - when a team is facing an elimination game, they don't sit out their well rested ace because he's their best pitcher and he'll give them their best chance of winning the deciding game in game 5. They would pitch him the next game just to try to stay alive.

I guess there's more than 1 way to skin a cat and all that...

interesting stuff

I see what your saying but there is a lot less pressure on the lower handicap in that 3rd game vs the last game. I have seen on from a lot of different sides playing apa. Been down 2 and come back and win playing 3 then 5 then 7, lose 0-3 after your down 0-2 and play your 7 and watch them lose to a 4, or be up 2 and lose.

If down 0-2 there is no expectations of the weaker players having to win. You talk to them and get them to understand they cant win or lose the match by winning or losing their game. But if you were down 0-2 then came back to tie it with only a weaker player to play the final match then the pressure really builds. Now the weaker player feels they have to win to win the match. Not only do they have to win the extra pressure of letting the team down after they have fought hard to tie it back up.


We came back to win after down 2 with our 3's playing the 2 and 3 game. our 4 lost the first then our 3 the second the our 3 then 5 then 7 won to win in playoffs. Other team came out the gate with their best 2 player (7 & 5) and left a 2, 3, and 5 to play the last 3. We put up first and we put up a 4 they played there best 5, then played a 7 because our 7 wasnt there yet due to work. We threw off and played our weakest 3 knowing full well that we would be down 0-2 but still had our best 3 , 5 and 7 to play against there 2 3 5 and we liked that matchup. We played the 3 next hoping to get them to throw the 2 and they did. Again it worked for us, but it might not work of other teams.

 

[Cory in DC]

Originally Posted by BasementDweller
I haven't played in the APA but I can see how the strategizing would be fun (or at least interesting).

What I don't get about your method is: If the opposing team has their anchor still available and you put up one of your worst players while trailing 0-2, why wouldn't they just put up their anchor and finish you off? It seems like you are taking quite a chance here. I could see how you could maybe get away with this during the regular season, but once the playoffs roll around I wouldn't think you could play it this way.

Am I wrong?

Boy, I have heard it all now. I would just throw up my 7 and just polish you off.

BTW, have any of you guys taken a team to Vegas?!!!!!! I have.

Yes: 1998, 2002 (two teams), 2003, 2005, and 2008. So I have been through this a few times. What you're probably missing is that in higher level play, the other team won't generally know that I'm putting up my worst player. And if I put myself, a 7, up in match 3 from down 2-0, the opponent will usually duck me. So then I'm stuck with your 7 playing one of my weaker remaining players anyway--one way or another, when I'm down 2-0, my worst remaining player has to win for the team to win.

On the other hand some 7s don't like playing 3s and 4s (5-2 spots can be tough against a 4 that knows how to play some safes), or a team's best remaining player might be a 5 or 6 on the cusp of going up, so they'd prefer not to play that person unless they need to. Or a team might like to spread higher level play around and, if they have faith in their 7, use the 2-0 lead to let someone who usually rides pine play.

It's true that some teams do go for the kill, but more often than not, in my experience, they don't. So it's a calculated risk.

 

[Cory in DC]

I see what your saying but there is a lot less pressure on the lower handicap in that 3rd game vs the last game. I have seen on from a lot of different sides playing apa. Been down 2 and come back and win playing 3 then 5 then 7, lose 0-3 after your down 0-2 and play your 7 and watch them lose to a 4, or be up 2 and lose.

If down 0-2 there is no expectations of the weaker players having to win. You talk to them and get them to understand they cant win or lose the match by winning or losing their game. But if you were down 0-2 then came back to tie it with only a weaker player to play the final match then the pressure really builds. Now the weaker player feels they have to win to win the match. Not only do they have to win the extra pressure of letting the team down after they have fought hard to tie it back up.


We came back to win after down 2 with our 3's playing the 2 and 3 game. our 4 lost the first then our 3 the second the our 3 then 5 then 7 won to win in playoffs. Other team came out the gate with their best 2 player (7 & 5) and left a 2, 3, and 5 to play the last 3. We put up first and we put up a 4 they played there best 5, then played a 7 because our 7 wasnt there yet due to work. We threw off and played our weakest 3 knowing full well that we would be down 0-2 but still had our best 3 , 5 and 7 to play against there 2 3 5 and we liked that matchup. We played the 3 next hoping to get them to throw the 2 and they did. Again it worked for us, but it might not work of other teams.

I agree 100%. In match 3, you can tell the weaker player "if the team loses, it's not your fault, just play your best." In match 5, the pressure is much higher. Yes, both are do or die for the team, but match 5 is just different.

Here's another fun scenario, from Vegas, that shows some good thinking about having to win 3 total, not just the current match, by both teams:

My team gets up 2-0 and we put up a 4. I am still to play and we control matches 4 and 5 (we put up first), so I can pick my opponent. They put up their 7. So I figure, as some suggest, they just want to win match 3 and then hope for the best -- but they have no real plan to beat me, since I'll be playing my choice of a 3 or a 5. But then it becomes clear that they know those matchups don't favor them, because their 7 is playing slow and laying down some gratuitous safes.

Then I realized that they figured they would have a better chance of winning both match 4 and 5 in races to 1. That is, they were going to force sudden death in matches 4 and 5. Pretty smart, all things considered.

So I checked with the ref to make sure this was within the rules, called a time-out, and coached my 4 to go over to his opponent and congratulate him on the win, which he did. I go on to beat their 5 easily and we advance.​

Sometimes strategy matters. That's a big part of what makes league play fun.

Cory

P.S. To the poster that said 7s should never lose to lower handicaps, that's true on average, but not in any given match--for most 7s (A+ / Open speed 7s excepted). I maintain about a 75% win ratio, and many of my losses are against other 7s and 4s, but plenty are against 3s, 5s, and 6s. Mostly 4s, though.

 

[rope_one]

Ok, here's a situation that you can use, doesn't come up often, but its well within the rules and rewards teams who are reliable and show up on time.

For us regionals/cities, whatever you call it is normally a Thur-Sunday tournament. Anyway during the Saturday morning round it is normal to see players show up through out the morning since matches start early and the players know a few matches will play before they have to shoot.

During that exact scenario we go up 2-0 on the opposing team, had a full roster of players there for our team, but the opposing team only had 4 players present. So they were counting on the third and fourth match taking enough time for the final players to show up late.

Although I didn't do it, I could have easily called my third player out to play and immediately forfeit. They have 2 minutes in our area to throw their next player, repeat the forfiet at which point we win the 5th match by defualt since they don't have a fifth player present.

I elected to play the strongest player on our team for the 3rd win and it ended up not being an issue.

Might not be the most dramatic method of winning, but it does show that it is a team event and everyone needs to cover their bases and be there ready to play.

 

[boyersj]

Cory,

I agree with you on the losses to 3s - 6s however (and maybe this has been just my own focus) i have never lost to a lower skill level (I have lost to other 7s) in a playoff situation in 8-ball. (this includes "city", tri-annuals, and even state tournaments. I have been beat in 9-ball by a 8 (once) but I was involved in a relationship that had my mind far from the table for months. I guess since I acknowledge how much I "cost" the team to play, I am very much into the match and the handicap is not sufficient when I am playing that focused. I am not being egotistical because my win percentage against other 7s is about 50% so I am not "open speed".

As far as "going in for the kill" when a team is up 2-0, why not? Confidence is high, other teams is grasping. By making the conscious choice to "throw off" there can be intangible reactions. The best example I can recall is when the Yankees lost to Boston in the ALCS when they were up 3-0. When Boston won the 4th game they reversed all that momentum. I cannot envision how throwing off can be considered "best" strategy.

We can all accept that strategy is not guaranteed, as we have surely all played a "lock down" safe just to observe the opponent kick a ball and get a roll where it either went in the hole and permitted a runout or where the rock slid safe against us. We cannot second guess the decision based on the outcome, because we did what gave us the best chance to win.

Great thread, this type of discussion is always enjoyable to read perspectives and to incorporate new concepts.

 

[Cory in DC]

Rope One -- I've always worried that a team would try this on my team. We've gotten older and have more players with kids, which makes it hard to get 5 there for the duration. If I thought you might try it for some reason, I might hide players in the parking lot to trick you into forfeiting. Generally, it could be a little risky because some teams have players that find practice tables, play on another team, or smoke outside.

Boyers -- My playoff record vs under 7s is probably substantially better than 75%, for similar reasons. It may be easier to rise up under pressure when you're more experienced or have more clubs in the bag.