APA team question

I don't understand why you would ever want your best player to play the other teams best player. The objective is to win points not beat the other teams best player.

With a graduated scoring system like APA nine ball you do not have to be as concerned with out and out wins.

Consider you lose your first match 7-13 but when your next match 14-6. You are ahead 21-19 yet you have won one , lost one. That's why matching up your best player to their best player is frequently not a good strategy. Assuming the players are roughly 50-50 you have no positive expectation with this sort of scheme.

Better to match your best player up against one of the other teams decent or even below average players and try for a big win. Dump on their best player. Even a SL 9 is rarely going to beat a SL 2 or SL 3 20-0 or 19-1. More likely 15-5 or so. If your low player gets a little lucky then they can easily close the gap further. On the other hand if your SL 8 plays a bad SL 5 that could easily be a 18-2 or 17-3 win for you.

Just my .02
 
It is called a "MATCH" for a reason................
A S/L3 against a S/L9 is like a MIS_MATCH.
Really it is up to the captains to decide.You run across this in regionals, but not in week-to-week league play. Thatsa "gloves-off" situation when it does happen. :(
 
Lotta sensible answers in here. Especially Matt's summary at the end, that seems to pretty much say it all...
9 doesn't necessarily mean "invincible" unless the 9 shoots like Shane.
If they are good for only one break'n'run and they need 7.5 racks to win, it's a real uphill battle.

In our league don't think there's much difference between the 9's and the 7's,
so playing a seven and spotting them 20 balls is pretty tough action.
And the LO is a seven who has rough patches and is temporarily a 6. That's brutal for 8's or 9's to fade.

On paper the ideal team probably doesn't involve 7, 8, 9, or 2.
I guess the most practical answer is if you have 2 wins already and a third is sure to win the evening,
you go ahead and do your 9/2 pair. And if you have 3 wins to start and the match is in the bag,
this will let those guys play if they normally are stuck sitting most nights.
Makes sure you reach minimum number of matches.
 
Breed41 said:
I don't understand why you would ever want your best player to play the other teams best player. The objective is to win points not beat the other teams best player.

With a graduated scoring system like APA nine ball you do not have to be as concerned with out and out wins.

Consider you lose your first match 7-13 but when your next match 14-6. You are ahead 21-19 yet you have won one , lost one. That's why matching up your best player to their best player is frequently not a good strategy. Assuming the players are roughly 50-50 you have no positive expectation with this sort of scheme.

Better to match your best player up against one of the other teams decent or even below average players and try for a big win. Dump on their best player. Even a SL 9 is rarely going to beat a SL 2 or SL 3 20-0 or 19-1. More likely 15-5 or so. If your low player gets a little lucky then they can easily close the gap further. On the other hand if your SL 8 plays a bad SL 5 that could easily be a 18-2 or 17-3 win for you.

Just my .02
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In most cases, I'd rather play the other big gun, otherwise it's just a wash. If I play a bad s/l 5, I don't think it's going to be much different than a strong 4 playing a bad s/l 5. I've never skunked anybody, but I also haven't been skunked since my first year. Neutralize the gun from the other side, add a few points from the win and match your others up right to keep it going.

In the end, though, you never know how matches are going to turn out.
 
Thrown into the mix of deciding when to play and not play the win/lose kids is their willingness to set out so many weeks.

The recommendation to play the others for the first three matches is the correct decision. Depending on their match results, you can option them in or out - based on your standing in the division.

If you are totally out of the running, just play them as much as possible during each session. If you don't keep the 2's interest level up, you are going to be in trouble next session. In the meantime, see if you can bring in a friend of your 2, even as a part timer.
 
We are lucky enough to have low numbers that play well to there number. We have an 8 and a 9 (me) and we take turns playing every other week which is just fine with both of us lol
 
Its not really nine ball.....

The APA handicapping system and rules of play in 9 ball make it very tough for a SL9 to win. Actually, the game they play shouldn't be called 9 ball, but rotation. In nine ball whom ever makes the nine wins the game...not so in APA. I can make the nine ball in every game and still lose the match. That's why I only play 8 ball now.
 
VillageSlim said:
The APA handicapping system and rules of play in 9 ball make it very tough for a SL9 to win. Actually, the game they play shouldn't be called 9 ball, but rotation. In nine ball whom ever makes the nine wins the game...not so in APA. I can make the nine ball in every game and still lose the match. That's why I only play 8 ball now.
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I hear that gripe all the time, but if you sit down and count the number of times a player makes more 9 balls, but loses the match, it's pretty rare. Usually the guy who makes the 9 also made the 7 and 8.

To make all the 9's and still lose you also would have to break dry or otherwise lose control of the table.

I get what you're saying, and you're right, it's a different game... a better one IMO.
The idea that I can win from the chair because the other guy rattled the 9b always struck me as dumb.
A player should work for his wins in any pool game.
 
CreeDo said:
I hear that gripe all the time, but if you sit down and count the number of times a player makes more 9 balls, but loses the match, it's pretty rare. Usually the guy who makes the 9 also made the 7 and 8.
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Unless I am playing another 9, or sometimes an 8, I generally make more 9 balls than my opponent and break almost every rack, but I win the match less than two-thirds of the time. That why I was saying the break is such a big deal for high-ranked players in 9 ball. If I have a night where the majority of the breaks are either dry and leave my opponent good or hook me after the break, I am in trouble, especially against a decent mid-ranked player. Even if they don't run out the rack, they can pick up a few balls before turning the table over to me, and some of those times I'll be on the receiving end of a safety, intentional or not.

To compound the problem, most low and mid ranked players don't rack very well or consistently, so I can't find the spot to fire in the wing ball every time like I can if I rack for myself. During the regular session, it's not worth it to me to inspect every rack, so I just consider that part of the challenge and look forward to playing the players that I know will rack them tight and give me a chance to string a couple racks together.
 
This thread has gotten a bit off track so I think there has been enough exchange to reinforce that the advantage of playing a high rated player is not usually worth playing a very low player. The exception to that is a strong 9 probably gives you the best chance to have a huge score because of their ability to string racks and shutout opponents for most of not all of the match.

As far as some of the 9s saying it is a struggle and they are likely to get knocked off by a lower player - this is true of any skill level if you break bad. Another 9 is going to win and so is a SL3. Being careful on the break is pretty important, can't give BIH. In close matches it is ok to 'safety break" and if you do not know how to do so, you are hurting your team.

This is in fact NOT 9-ball but rotation ball count and every point counts. 4 or 5 points from a dry break with open shot or a scratch can end the match early. It isn't hard to incorporate a version of 1P break on a 9ball rack to protect yourself.

The handicap for APA 9ball works too well, because it does not create a statistical advantage for the better player, thus making them less likely to want to improve (which is why most people who are not league players dislike league players).

Remember at all time, the APA is meant for amateurs, and that implies your average player (the 3s, 4s, 5s) That is why those skill levels are most critical to the success of a team. Under current scoring, A team of 2 SL7s and 3 SL3s is a dog to a team of 4-SL5s and a SL3. One 7 is going to get burned by the 3 so assuming both 7s win, the remaining 3s have to all beat 5s. It is possible, but the percentages indicate that team with 4-5s and a 3 is favored. Flexibility is the key - because that prevents the other team from controlling matchups or avoiding bad scenarios for their roster.
 
boyersj said:
In close matches it is ok to 'safety break" and if you do not know how to do so, you are hurting your team.
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boyersj said:
It isn't hard to incorporate a version of 1P break on a 9ball rack to protect yourself.
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In APA play, as in most 9-ball tournaments, a safety break is not legal.

From the APA manual:
"Breaking safe or soft is not allowed. The League Operator
may make judgments and issue penalties to teams and players who are not
breaking hard. Breaking just hard enough to comply with this rule is not a
guarantee against penalties. Remember, break as hard as you can with control."

If you are playing a safety break in 9-ball, you are cheating, whether someone calls you on it or not.
 
Nobody in our league safety breaks. I dunno why, it seems like a solid strategy.

So how do you do it?
I know the 1p break but isn't there a requirement like 4 balls to a rail? Can you get 4 balls hitting a 1p break? How to consistently hide someone from the 1?
 
Safe breaking is entirely illegal in the APA. Players are required to break as hard as they can with control.
 
CreeDo said:
Nobody in our league safety breaks. I dunno why, it seems like a solid strategy.

So how do you do it?
I know the 1p break but isn't there a requirement like 4 balls to a rail? Can you get 4 balls hitting a 1p break? How to consistently hide someone from the 1?
Click to expand...

If I'm having piss-poor luck breaking in 9 and need to slow my opponent, I'll usually aiming to keep the CB down at the foot by using a bit of top. The only problem is when it backfires and something falls. Sometimes you just can't win. :embarrassed2:

APA 9 has helped me learn quite a bit about the game. Now, if I could just learn how to play safe in 9. :frown:
 
That is correct - there is absolutely methods to break without it being an illegal break. Manipulating the cue and 1 ball can be done based on angle, speed, and spin. If they would institue the push - this would be less of a concern!
 
boyersj said:
That is correct - there is absolutely methods to break without it being an illegal break. Manipulating the cue and 1 ball can be done based on angle, speed, and spin. If they would institue the push - this would be less of a concern!
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It doesn't matter how you do it; the rules specifically state that breaking safe is not legal. If you can break safe without anyone noticing that you are doing it intentionally, you won't get called on it, but you'll still be breaking the rule. Even the most "important" APA matches I've played haven't been worth bending the rules, but I know a lot of people that wouldn't think twice about it.

As far as the push goes, I absolutely agree, but I've had that discussion with multiple APA league operators and the answer is always that they won't do it because it only really benefits the higher skill level players. For the most part, the APA caters to the casual player, because that's where the money is. It's unfortunate for players that decide to practice and improve, but that's why most good players either outgrow the APA entirely or end up just playing masters (where it's available).
 
The APA handicap system is designed to make every match a 50-50 proposition. I have often wondered if just putting people up randomly would not be just as successful as trying to "match up."

There are a few teams in my area who use a random system of deciding who plays and when. It has led many of them to cities and to Vegas for the national.

Translation....you probably aren't much smarter than the handicap system.
 
DJ team?

Having a double jeopardy team helps with this problem most of the time.

Double Jeopardy = playing both 8 and 9 ball each night. This way everyone can play at least once.

Setting DJ aside I don't believe this is a simple answer to your question. I play it by ear each night. How are my players practicing? What is the other teams lineup? Do all of my players want to play and so on.

The 2 should know why they're on the team IF that's why you have them.

My wife (a 2/2) was in this situation last season and her captain (a 7/9) liked playing every night so he always used her as a reactionary throw and tried to get her a win (or at least in a winable situation). He understood that he needed her a lot more then she needed him.


CreeDo said:
This comes up all the time in our league so I thought I'd see how other teams handle it.

Say your team has a very strong player (7/8/9) who almost never loses,
and a very weak player (1/2/3) who almost never wins.

In order to for the strong player to shoot, the weak player always has to shoot also,
or else the team can't make numbers (i.e. they exceed the 23 limit).

Optionally, they both can sit and the team can just play their middle-of-the-field players.

So what do you think is better?
Play the 9 + 2, for one guaranteed win and one guaranteed loss.
Play a couple of 4/5/6's instead for a semi-random outcome... might be 2 wins, 2 losses, one of each.
Click to expand...
 
We saw it this week!

In 9-ball playoffs, we put up a SL3 in the first match, and they countered with their SL9.

He ended up winning the match 75-3 (20-0) by playing the ol' "make-make-hide" strategy. I know I don't have that kind of patience, but it was effective for him and his team.

Too bad we responded with...

16-4
17-3
19-1

...in the next three matches (without an extreme difference in SL).

Lose the battle, win the war.
 
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