APA - What a Rip Off.

Ah Yes.....The APA Thread

These threads always make me laugh.

As one poster said, if you play league pool with the expectation of making a profit......you're in the wrong business. It's nice to get you're money back and a little more if you finish in the top but realisticly most players play league for other reasons.

My feelings on APA are well known. Haven't played APA in almost 5 years. When I did play I played 9 ball cuz i liked the challenge of having to get 72 balls to my opponents lesser number....period. I knew it was a ripoff and i accepted it.

The APA is a pyramid scheme. Where else do you get penalized for excelling in your sport. The higher the skill level you achieve the less you can play due to the cap on team skill level. Once your team gets too good they force you to break it up and form teams with lower players to compete thereby keeping a fresh supply of new money.

I suppose it has a purpose in the pool world. It introduces people who don't play well to the sport and they get to play people of like skill and can be competitive. Other than that.....beats me why people stay in the APA
 
Danny Kuykendal said:
I actually have an in house pool league in my room that gives all the money back, but it's run by a player who doesn't need the money and really enjoys the experience. But this is certainly the exception.
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We have an in house league just like you described and all of the money comes back to the players. Our league is run buy the players and was started by a man who got fed up with paying the APA and not getting much in return. We have a waiting list of teams who want to get in our league!

James
 
I've played at least 15 maybe 20 sessions of APA. I've played TAP, BCA, VNEA, and local leagues in Arizona, Illinois, and Colorado. I have a good feel for a variety of leagues out there and all I want to say is something that is easy to forget, to each his own.

Does the APA have an absolutely ridiculous payout? No doubt. Does the APA give more "Amateur" people out there a chance to enjoy a night out once a week and have some comradery with friends? Yes it does and in many peoples areas it is the only option. Not all people want to go pro. Have quite a few pros played in the APA? For a fact yes they have.

I went to Vegas in 05 for the APA Nationals. We had enough fun that it was worth our league dues to get there. The APA is a cash cow that makes other leagues owners only wish they could be as profitable. From a purely #'s standpoint, I'd say that the APA has more members than any league out there. This being said, aside from the crap pay back and the bunk slop rules etc., the APA alternatively could be viewed as the organization that has brought more people to a table than any other. Apparently, if you built it, they will come.
 
ne14tennis said:
These threads always make me laugh.

As one poster said, if you play league pool with the expectation of making a profit......you're in the wrong business. It's nice to get you're money back and a little more if you finish in the top but realisticly most players play league for other reasons.

My feelings on APA are well known. Haven't played APA in almost 5 years. When I did play I played 9 ball cuz i liked the challenge of having to get 72 balls to my opponents lesser number....period. I knew it was a ripoff and i accepted it.

The APA is a pyramid scheme. Where else do you get penalized for excelling in your sport. The higher the skill level you achieve the less you can play due to the cap on team skill level. Once your team gets too good they force you to break it up and form teams with lower players to compete thereby keeping a fresh supply of new money.

I suppose it has a purpose in the pool world. It introduces people who don't play well to the sport and they get to play people of like skill and can be competitive. Other than that.....beats me why people stay in the APA
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Great point, never really looked at it like that but its true.

From what I understand about the whole "payout" setup in the APA is that is entirely at the discretion of the LO. He doesnt have to give back a dime if he doesnt want to. I think this is where the problem is. The APA needs to have it set up so its a percentage based amount and have that be the end of it.

I live in south east Michigan and there is another APA division with a different LO in north east Ohio. Well our LO in Michigan charges 8 bucks a week to play and gives back about $3000 to each team that goes to Vegas (one for 8 ball and one for 9 ball). On the other hand the Ohio LO only charges 6 or 7 bucks to play and gives back 5000 to the teams going to Vegas. I think he sends more teams too but I cant remember.

Its pretty messed up. The only reason I play is that I like to compete and want to play in the singles events. I really hate the politics of it but I doubt anything will change. I just wish there was some sort of uniformity as far as the money is concerned. The payouts for just the seasonal play has always been a joke, each player might get back 30 bucks if they are lucky for a first place team and some lame ass trophy.
 
forget the APA, I played my last season in the spring..

we're playing in the LTC and the money cup so we can win SOME of our money back.

it's a f*cking joke.
 
First thing, your numbers are wrong. You didn't include money paid for travel to Vegas, local tournaments and the overall overhead of keeping track of the league itself. Add to that the fact that the LO has the risk of non-payment by individuals and its not as rosy as you think. I'm not saying its not profitable, but it has its risks.

Next, if you've never made it to Vegas for the finals, it makes sense for you to throw darts from outside. Its a once-in-a-lifetime event. If $8 a week is that big a deal to you, then you need to start thinking about a job change more than changing leagues. I piss more than that away on tips at my local bar each time I go.

You are right, it is a pyramid scheme, one in need of a real CEO. But, for $8 a week, you have a shot each year to compete in Vegas. You'll meet people that you'll remember for the rest of your life. I can handle that.

tim
 
Apa

I captain an APA "AMETEUR" team. The reason we play is for the competition, not the dough. We knew this going in. Our objective is to have fun at a semi-competitive level.At $30.00 a year & $6.00 a week,
it is unrealistic to expect a huge cash payback. I really enjoy getting to compete. Our Tuesday team went to 'Vegas on the APA's dime,& we had a blast. I believe the winning team cashed 25k. Not a bad return a $300.00+
investment. Just my opinion.
Paul
 
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve
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Damn, I want to play in your division...thats the way it should be!
 
Many in this thread mentioned the "free" practice time during league night. The nightly league fee usually includes a $1 or $2 per player to partly compensate the Room Owner for the use of their tables. That amount DOES NOT cover the extended use of tables before and after league play. The Owner absorbs that loss of revenue. BUT that is the price the Owner pays for the league bringing in customers in his room (drinking, eating, etc.). Most Owners I've talked to DEPEND on the revenue from league players. Also, when a league player plays out of a certain place, they also usually come back at other times to practice (therefore more business!).
 
pooltchr said:
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve
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Steve, stop trying to inject facts, logic, and statistics into the argument.

KT is a good LO, and she's doing a good thing sponsoring KF. Maybe next year, she can steal Marc's League Operator of the Year award. He's won it two years running, but if she wins it, it'll be nice to keep it in the NC family.

-djb
 
Must Be Nice For You

pooltchr said:
Let's just bash the APA some more. Our teams pay $35 per week. We get a match table and access to a practice table all night long. I get at least an hour or two of table time for my $7. That's pretty cheap table time.

Our league operator holds our cities tournament 3 times a year. They rent a huge building for a week, bring in about 120 Diamond smart tables, have them set up and and broken down. Then the winners of the 4 divisions in the cities get $1000 per player to go to Vegas. 4 teams per session, 3 sessions per year, that's 12 teams each year going to Vegas. Assume an average of 7 players per team, that's $84,000 paid out in travel expenses alone. Not to mention the overhead of paying employees, operating an office, computer systems, putting on the cities each session.

And it costs me $25 a year and $7 on the nights that I play!

Can someone tell me how I'm getting ripped off??????????

Steve
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The APA LO in our area hasn't had a council meeting in years. If he raises up a player you can bet it's on a team that is opposing a team from his area.....yes he plays favorites!

The defensive shots (Sand bagging) that goes unreported, or if it's reported nothing is done about it. The SL 3 and 4's that dog it all season come out and play like 6's and 7's......turns my stomach.

Hit your ball first and anything goes, can't play in the city tourney 8 ball singles unless you played in the 8 ball division (Read: more money for the LO)

I believe in the motto of Tom Simpson "Beat People With A Stick" don't try and beat me with back room politics and manipulation of a sad handicap system.
 
I don't know why if people are dissatisfied with the leagues they play in why they don't start their own league. We vote in a President, Treasurer who does the stats and collects the money's and all the captains of the teams vote on different rules etc. We give the captains self addressed envelopes with stamps on them and after the night of play during the week they just drop the scores and a check in the mail to the Treasurer. We have our own league an it ran 23 weeks we collected $17,350.00 at $5 per night per player an one monthly calendar raffle which neted $2860.00
Paid Out $1620.00 in Run tables and $430.00 in 8 Ball Breaks.
The rest of the money was all paid back to the teams.
Great League and format.
If you want to know how to do it email me at mr8ball@comcast.net
Ron
 
IntoTheRail said:
Damn, I want to play in your division...thats the way it should be!
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All of the Charlotte APA is like that if you're playing in-house in a pool room. Some of the traveling teams in the Charlotte APA play in bars with only 1 or 2 bar boxes, so no free practice. But all the ones that play in pool halls on real tables are that way here.

To correct Steve on the number of teams that the Charlotte league office sends a year....
Cities held 3x year. 3 8 ball brackets, 1 9 ball bracket, winner of each goes to Vegas. So thats 4 x 3 = 12 teams.
There is also a 2nd chance tournament once a year for every team that made it to the final day of cities, so that's 2 additional teams going to vegas at $112k of travel fund money.

We also sent 17 people to the APA singles nationals this past month.

So, what do I pay my $7/week for? To be in a very well run league where I have fun playing with friends every week and have a chance for a "free" trip to vegas....

Brian
 
Maybe?

mongoose- said:
That is exactly what they paid back Creedo. I don't know about the guidelines as I don't play the APA.. I just thought it was bit ridiculous.
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I don't play the APA leagues. I do have a couple of friends who own about 3 territories in central Indiana. The league operators DO NOT GET RICH off the leagues. It is a lot of work and travel to run 3 areas. Now I realize you can look at local league payouts and complain. But the lower level players have a chance to qualify, and get their way paid to bigger events. At those events the can win the trip to Vegas. I have some friends who have won those trips, and just loved the opportunity to play in Vegas,{not to mention, they get to play against people on their own skill level}. And thats where part of that money goes.

Like was posted earlier, "if you don't like it, don't play". You really shouldn't run down an organization that supports pool at the lower level, just because you don't like their payouts.
 
The fact of life is, that if people don't get paid decently for what they do, they won't do it. That's why I've never begrudged room owners or tournament promoters for making some profit on an event. Pool players historically have dissed promoters or league operators for making a profit.

You can see what Don Mackey did to the pool scene in the early 90s by demanding most of all the moneys for himself and the players. He virtually destroyed it. This is pointed out by Jay in Pool Wars.
 
APA is crap IMO which is why I stopped playing. As it has been said before a considerable amount of money goes out to pay for travel to Vegas. Around here only 4 teams out of 100+ go each year. Only one cities tournament. So all the money everyone pays goes to a very small percent of the players. Not to mention once you get to cities you have to play a bunch of teams that have been sandbagging all year. 23 point system forces teams to break up. Its really crappy.

I say no thank you. I would rather spend $5 on a local tournament and actually get something in return if I win <gasp>
 
mongoose- said:
Fatboy I could have worded that better. I mixed in our ACS payout vs the APA. The APA took in $4800 over a 15 week session. 8 teams at $8 a head. They paid back 1000. Yes $3,800 gone. Now IF this was the only division & some was taken for the vegas trip etc I could see it somewhat but it is not. The LO has over 250+ teams state wide & send 3 teams in 8ball & 2 in 9ball annually to Vegas. The $3800 was taken from the small 8 team division. Nice huh.
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how did the other people in the league about being short changed?:wink:
 
I have always favored BCA or ACS leagues myself because I feel the overall level of competition is stronger, the pay backs are usually higher, and the Vegas tournaments are open to everyone who is sanctioned. In Arizona we have them all: APA, TAP, BCA, ACS and VNEA, and the APA is still the biggest even though the BCA has been around the longest. As a matter of fact, the BCA and ACS leagues here have fewer players combined than any one of the other systems mentioned.

After giving this particular phenomenon much thought, I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of players out there are not like me (and probably you, since you're reading this). They don't take the game seriously. They are just out to have fun. They make new acquaintances and build new friendships. They get out of the house once or twice a week and they play good (for them), or bad, and it really doesn't matter which because they are just having a good time. And they are willing to pay for that good time. They don't expect money back - they'll take it if offered, but they really don't EXPECT it. Most of them will be happy if they can just win a trophy at some point in time. And here's the kicker; most of them have no desire to go beyond this level of play. But that's all good. For those who want to "graduate" to more serious play, the BCA and ACS are there for them. And for those who don't, good, because the pool rooms need that vast horde of players to help make ends meet.

So I love the APA and all the other "fun" leagues. They all contribute to this wonderful world of pool! :thumbup:

Roger
 
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