Archer vs. Sigel 1993 Accu Stats

Cornerman said:
More importantly, pool was not doing it financially. Sigel first started talking about retiring in the late 80’s because there was no money in pool. The year he was the first to win $100K USD in tournament winnings in one year, the 100th ranked PGA professional also made that much.
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100th on the PGA this year made 1.6million. We may never see a pool pro make a million in one year. Maybe but its gonna be a while.
 
jay helfert said:
I wish you were around in those days. For me pro pool (cash and tourneys) were more interesting then. Winner Breaks, Race to Eleven, Roll Out on any shot, two fouls by the same player for BIH and all balls spot back up. You shot from behind the line after a scratch on the cue ball. 9-Ball was a different game then, more highly skilled imo. The One Foul BIH rule and all balls stay down changed everything! We had great matches every day, many of them going down to the wire 11-10 or 11-9. YES, with winner breaks! And after the matches the "practice" room was alive with action, One Pocket games, 9-Ball match ups and a Ten Ball ring game at every event. No question the players may play better today (in some ways) but I liked the era I was most active in far better.
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Actually, I was around, but from 1976-83, nearly all the pool I watched at men's pro level was straight pool. I don't recall attending a major men's 9ball event before the 1984 US Open 9ball, so yes, I missed the era of roll out nine-ball in competition, although I did play it from time to time in my youth. I did, however, attend a couple of WPBA 9ball events in the 1970s.

As I've often said, my friend, guys like you and Jewett, who have been around pool even longer than me, help me feel young, and continue to educate me.
 
jay helfert said:
True that. I saw Luther play quite a bit and he never seemed to miss. He once famously said that he could watch a player and if he missed more than once in an hour he knew he could beat him. It helped that Luther played better (and closer) position than anyone else. He would shrug his shoulders and make a face if he got a couple of inches out of line. He wanted (and expected) perfection on every shot. He was the undisputed king of 9-Ball for a long, long time. Harold Worst was the first and only guy I ever saw challenge him. They never played for money as far as I know. In tournaments yes (JC and Stardust).

I clocked Luther at JC one year and in every Straight Pool match (they went to 125) he ran a 90 or better, like six or seven matches in a row. Yes he won the Straight Pool that year. Mosconi refused to ever play a long challenge match against Luther. If he did I never heard about it. Meanwhile Willie played them with Cranfield, Crane, Caras and Rudolf to win several of his "world titles."
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I doubt this is true.

Mosconi played Lassiter whenever his exhibition schedule took him to North Carolina and reputedly beat him there numerous times. He said Lassiter shot a "respectable" game of 14.1. Wimpy only became dominant after Moscini retired.

Lou Figueroa
carry on
 
lfigueroa said:
I doubt this is true.

Mosconi played Lassiter whenever his exhibition schedule took him to North Carolina and reputedly beat him there numerous times. He said Lassiter shot a "respectable" game of 14.1. Wimpy only became dominant after Moscini retired.

Lou Figueroa
carry on
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Another factor here might be the timing. According to many who watched him play, Willie was never quite the same player after having a stroke (approx. 1957). It might be true that, after his stroke, he was less interested in matching up with Lassiter, but it's hard to imagine Willie ducking anybody before that.
 
sjm said:
Another factor here might be the timing. According to many who watched him play, Willie was never quite the same player after having a stroke (approx. 1957). It might be true that, after his stroke, he was less interested in matching up with Lassiter, but it's hard to imagine Willie ducking anybody before that.
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Yes I suspect that what you and Lou say is correct. I remember reading in Babe Cranfield's book that Wimpy was vulnerable in the long extended challenge matches (in fact that's where Babe beat Luther for the title) and that NOBODY could beat Willie in the long games.
 
sjm said:
That title count sounds about right and yes, he knew how to win more than anyone of his era. His record in finals was absolutely mind blowing and he was triple tough at the majors. If I had to guess, I'd suggest that Ralf Souquet, inclusive of his many wins at the European Championships, has more titles than Mike.

Sigel was the most impressive player I've ever watched. I have noted my opinion on this forum before that, had he not retired from competition in his prime, he, not Efren, would be considered the best player of all time. To me, however, he's still in the conversation, and Mosconi, Efren and Sigel are the clear three best players that ever lived.

I've always placed great meaning in the fact that two of Mike's peers called him "the greatest pool player I have ever faced." Those peers, by the way, were Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland.
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For me the two that get overlooked by the young crowd is Sigel and Nick Varner. Definitely on my Mt Rushmore.
 
jay helfert said:
Actually Mike made that cue in Danny Janes shop with Danny's help, so it's technically a Joss. I have the only duplicate of that cue that Mike ever made. He also hand crafted it at the Joss shop, and in his words may be the better of the two cues. It is one of Mike's personally autographed cues.
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Are you operating from memory?

Because I just went back and froze the frame a few times. The video is grainy but it sure looks like one of Ernie's cues.

I saw Sigel playing in a pool tournament in Burbank Cali in the early 90s and he was playing with a Ginacue.
 
overlord said:
Are you operating from memory?

Because I just went back and froze the frame a few times. The video is grainy but it sure looks like one of Ernie's cues.

I saw Sigel playing in a pool tournament in Burbank Cali in the early 90s and he was playing with a Ginacue.
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I sent a note to Sigel to see if there’s clarification. I suppose anything is possible, but he was playing with a specific Joss as far as i ever saw him, and then he started building cues. And yes, he actually built cues.
 
sjm said:
Nobody forgets Nick.

Nick was an amazing player, and had incredible skills across all the disciplines, but I, for one, cannot put him in a category with Sigel. During the straight pool era, Nick was a small cut below Sigel and Mizerak at 14.1 and in the 9ball era, he was also a small cut below Sigel and Strickland at 9ball. Still, it would be hard to put any American player other than Greenleaf, Mosconi, or Sigel above Nick.
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I'll have to disagree w that. Nick's 1990 comeback and the fact that he's beaten Sigel more times in competition than the other way around begs the question.
 
Cornerman said:
I sent a note to Sigel to see if there’s clarification. I suppose anything is possible, but he was playing with a specific Joss as far as i ever saw him, and then he started building cues. And yes, he actually built cues.
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No worries..........

It will be interesting if he gets back to you and confirms cue in video......
 
overlord said:
No worries..........

It will be interesting if he gets back to you and confirms cue in video......
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He said he did play with a Ginacue for 2-3 months. Couldnt get used to it.

Personally, I played small tournament with a Gina. Easily one of the best cues I’ve felt in my hands.
 
Mensabum said:
I'll have to disagree w that. Nick's 1990 comeback and the fact that he's beaten Sigel more times in competition than the other way around begs the question.
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I dont believe the second part is true. Mike beat Nick quite regularly before he started the retirement slide in the early 90’s. I dont know that anyone has winning record against Sigel.
 
L.S. Dennis said:
Yes I suspect that what you and Lou say is correct. I remember reading in Babe Cranfield's book that Wimpy was vulnerable in the long extended challenge matches (in fact that's where Babe beat Luther for the title) and that NOBODY could beat Willie in the long games.
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This is probably true and Willie's record in Challenge matches (usually 1,500 points) seems to verify this. The lore around the pool world when I came up in the 1960's was that Ralph Greenleaf was the best of all time and Willie was second. And that from the mouths of men who played both of them.
 
sjm said:
Actually, I was around, but from 1976-83, nearly all the pool I watched at men's pro level was straight pool. I don't recall attending a major men's 9ball event before the 1984 US Open 9ball, so yes, I missed the era of roll out nine-ball in competition, although I did play it from time to time in my youth. I did, however, attend a couple of WPBA 9ball events in the 1970s.

As I've often said, my friend, guys like you and Jewett, who have been around pool even longer than me, help me feel young, and continue to educate me.
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I first went to Johnston City in 1963 and then I was hooked forever. It was three weeks long back then. I went with some pool buddies from Dayton (maybe a 500 mile drive away) and we stayed for five days, then came back home. I convinced one of them (Pat Colley) to go back with me and we returned for five more days a week later. I couldn't get enough of that hustler lifestyle, sick kid that I was.
overlord said:
Are you operating from memory?

Because I just went back and froze the frame a few times. The video is grainy but it sure looks like one of Ernie's cues.

I saw Sigel playing in a pool tournament in Burbank Cali in the early 90s and he was playing with a Ginacue.
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Everybody copied Ernie! ;)
 
i know billy s. made a cue or more for sigel. dont know what he was playing with as most pros got free playing cues from the top makers back then when ever they wanted one.
and most played with whatever they had left, ones they had not broken when mad.
.
 
Cornerman said:
I dont believe the second part is true. Mike beat Nick quite regularly before he started the retirement slide in the early 90’s. I dont know that anyone has winning record against Sigel.
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This is an interesting question, I wonder what the actual records show of matches won between Nick and Mike, there should be someway those records could be accessed. Whatever the result, I suspect they were probably pretty close in the end.
 
jay helfert said:
This is probably true and Willie's record in Challenge matches (usually 1,500 points) seems to verify this. The lore around the pool world when I came up in the 1960's was that Ralph Greenleaf was the best of all time and Willie was second. And that from the mouths of men who played both of them.
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In Babe's book, he claims Greenleaf as his hero. In fact he said that whenever Greenleaf would be giving an exhibition if were humanly possible he would always go to see him. In the book Babe points our how Greenleaf was a master of limited cue ball movement when playing position.

No doubt that the young Mosconi learned a lot from Greenleaf as Willie's cue ball control was also second to none! Fun revisiting all the stuff for us old geezers! Love your posts,
Dennis
 
jay helfert said:
This is probably true and Willie's record in Challenge matches (usually 1,500 points) seems to verify this. The lore around the pool world when I came up in the 1960's was that Ralph Greenleaf was the best of all time and Willie was second. And that from the mouths of men who played both of them.
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The is not what the record book shows.

Lou Figueroa
 
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