Let's not forget Nick.
He's got more than 80 wins and 8 world titles!!
You could say the same about him as Mike.
Archer vs. Sigel 1993 Accu Stats
- Thread starter westcoast
- Start date
He's got more than 80 wins and 8 world titles!!
You could say the same about him as Mike.
Mike always played w a custom Joss Dan made 4 him l. At least when I was around.
We're almost on the same page here, as is quite common on the forum.
There's little doubt that the 4 5/8" pockets that were standard when Sigel and Varner ruled the world of nine ball wouldn't do today.
I liked it when they went to 4 1/2" about 20 years ago. It required slightly straighter cueing but the game still had its fast and loose identity. I liked it seven or eight years ago when 4 1/4" became the standard for many of the majors, although I could already see that the game was evolving into a more tactically oriented game. I was fine with it when Matchroom adopted 4 1/4" pockets to begin its tour, and hoped they would stay the course.
As we have seen since the Matchroom tour adopted the "nine on the spot with a break box" and the "four inch pockets" in August 2022, it is no longer the big breakers who are walking away with all the titles as they once did, but instead those who can run the table and also have the complementary skills needed to beat opponents to the shot. To use Emily Frazer's words, there's more "back and forth" in the game. I have great respect for Emily and her decisions, but for me, the additional "back and forth" has not made 9ball more interesting to watch. The wonderful stats that AtLarge routinely publishes to our forum evidence that break-and-runs are far less common than they were a few years ago and that long break and run packages are a dying breed. Yes, everyone is getting to shoot, but I'm not convinced that it needs to be that way. Sometimes, it's nice to see a player dominate a match the way BCA Hall of Famers like Sigel, Strickland, Varner, Archer and SVB did, but this isn't really happening anymore when 4" pockets are in use.
There's little question that today's pros shoot so straight that 4" pockets are not beyond their skill set, but the 4" pockets have changed the nature of 9ball, slowing its pace and making defense much more critical. Players are definitely a bit less aggressive when 4" pockets are in use, too. For example, a lot of the bank shots players used to gamble on are slowly disappearing.
That's why I feel that 4" pockets rob 9ball of some of its identity. Count me among those who would rather see occasional domination and a little less grinding. I have been around pro pool since the beginning of the 9ball era, and while I believe we are watching the best 9ball players ever, I don't believe we are watching the best brand of 9ball ever.
To each his own, I guess, but for me, 9ball is a better game on 4 1/4" pockets than on 4". Some have, quite elegantly, termed this the "snooker-ization of 9ball" but it's not going overboard to call it the "10ball-ization of 9ball" as the break and run rate is getting closer and closer to what we expect in 10ball.
As you suggest, Matchroom gets nearly everything right, but I think they've misjudged things here.
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Nobody forgets Nick.
Nick was an amazing player, and had incredible skills across all the disciplines, but I, for one, cannot put him in a category with Sigel. During the straight pool era, Nick was a small cut below Sigel and Mizerak at 14.1 and in the 9ball era, he was also a small cut below Sigel and Strickland at 9ball. Still, it would be hard to put any American player other than Greenleaf, Mosconi, or Sigel above Nick.
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Thanks for the compliment, but they do not need me at Matchroom. Their exceptional management team continues to mass produce good business decisions that are growing our sport.Too bad you aren’t a senior WNT adviser! I concur with everything you wrote upon a little reflection.
Awesome match. Johnny plays so fast in this, did he slow way down later in his career? Also what is it that makes mikes mechanics look unusual? I can't put my finger on it but it always looks like he's leaning to the side more than most? Like his feet are way over to the left? And why does he do this
He said the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
L.S. Dennis
Well-known member
I don't think anybody is forgetting Nick! This is a tough one but if there were a category of best 'all around player' I might have to cast my vote for Nick. He played ALL games at the highest level, straight pool, bank pool, one pocket, nine ball eight ball, and with his knowledge of the diamonds it wouldn't surprise me if he were able to play some good 3 cushion as well. In straight pool Sigel might have had him by a hair (although their individual high runs are relatively close 337 and 308 respectively) and Earl might have fared a little better in nine ball but that's it. Admittedly it would have close, but one thing that was never in question was the niceness, and approachability of the Kentucky Colonel!
Absolutely. If one was fortunate enuf to play with Nick, his 14:1 knowledge ran DEEP.
Taught me more about reading the rack in a shorter amount of time than any other player.
I make shots routinely from deep within the pack that I'd never thot of b4 Colonel gave me the tips on how they roll.
Multiple frozens, throws and combo caroms. All necessary to play at that level. Much of the same info applies to one hole as well. His game was and still is fierce. Imo, people got along better w Nick than they did w Mike. Much more likeable fellow. My 2¢.
About all it's worth.
there was more showmanship back then
kinda like the use of the word ‘elect’
Like your thinking here. Also agree with everyone criticizing the 4" pockets. Part of what makes pool great, at least to me, are the various games played on the same table. Snooker is just, well, snooker. Want to see bank shots, well you won't in snooker. To me pool over emphasizes 9 and 10 ball. Both great games, sure, but the others offer tactical play and lots of interest as well. Keep the pockets 4.5" and play all the games pleez and thanks.
Racky BallBoa
Registered
He started to manufacture and sell his own line of cues and sell pool tables and accessories as well. I attended his grand opening at his store in Winter Garden, FL; Sigel and Mizerack shot some pool for the attendees.
thanks for replying. I haven't heard of his cues or tables, is he still in that type of business or fully retired?
Actually Mike made that cue in Danny Janes shop with Danny's help, so it's technically a Joss. I have the only duplicate of that cue that Mike ever made. He also hand crafted it at the Joss shop, and in his words may be the better of the two cues. It is one of Mike's personally autographed cues.
Good for you for telling the truth here. Nick was always a slight underdog in 14.1 to Steve and Mike who were #1 and 2. Mizerak was the best player of all three and both Mike & Nick had trouble ever beating him (at Straights or 9-Ball) when Steve was in his prime (under 300 pounds!). Steve was triple tough at One Pocket as well but could not win against either Mike or Nick at Bank Pool for sure. Allen Hopkins was probably Nick's equal at 14.1 and 9-Ball and the favorite at One Pocket, so there's that. Nick and Allen were the best money players of the four and I give the nod to Allen here because he was not afraid to bet high against anyone. On his own money! Nick was a little more conservative that way, but would play 200 a game One Pocket.
Earl was on another level than all of them at tournament 9-Ball with his ability to string racks. He mastered the break long before Shane came along. Earl was putting sixes and sevens on everybody match after match. Pretty hard to overcome when you're racing to eleven. He is the first guy I ever saw make a 9' table look like a bar table. He could never beat Parica for the cash though (Ten Ball) and gave up trying. Of course no one else could either, not Mike, not Nick, not Buddy, not anyone! Objectively as I can be, Buddy Hall probably played the best 9-Ball of them all after the break. He was the closest to Lassiter I ever saw. Same patterns, same close position and same concentration (neither of them ever made a careless shot). The fans loved it too. We had packed houses in the hotel ballrooms with maybe seating for 500 to 750 people. No one ever left during a match!
I wish you were around in those days. For me pro pool (cash and tourneys) was more interesting then. Winner Breaks, Race to Eleven, Roll Out on any shot, two fouls by the same player for BIH and all balls spot back up. You shot from behind the line after a scratch on the cue ball. 9-Ball was a different game then, more highly skilled imo. The One Foul BIH rule and all balls stay down changed everything! We had great matches every day, many of them going down to the wire 11-10 or 11-9. YES, with winner breaks! And after the matches the "practice" room was alive with action, One Pocket games, 9-Ball match ups and a Ten Ball ring game at every event. No question the players may play better today (in some ways) but I liked the era I was most active in far better.
I just wanted to add one thing. Buddy's famous line was "Take what the table gives you!" That's how he played position, always taking the simplest route to get on the next shot. He taught me that shooting a ball the long way down table that was close to the rail was an easy shot if you got up close under it. Up until then it seemed like everyone else was always trying to get above the ball and shoot it in the nearby corner pocket. They might have to go two or three rails to get there. Not Buddy! He would just roll his cue ball over and get straight in a foot or so underneath the ball.
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More importantly, pool was not doing it financially. Sigel first started talking about retiring in the late 80’s because there was no money in pool. The year he was the first to win $100K USD in tournament winnings in one year, the 100th ranked PGA professional also made that much.
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