Archer's View on Diamond tables

obsespool said:
Best post in these 20 pages is from Jay. Who wants pocket marks on the balls to potentially cause skid or just deter from the appearance of balls. I wish diamond would consider offering a gold crown type pocket liner as an option. They do offer the 3 piece slate on some models now.
Anyway, both great tables. How about options on the pockets? Buyers preference?
(just my humble opinion)
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Interesting suggestion.

What do you think the tradeoffs are between Diamond's current system and the Brunswick system?
 
Sorry to say this, but Diamond tables suck. I go to my local pool hall and spend a brunch of my well earned dollards and leave pissed off. Pockets don't accept balls, rails bounce like they were made out of super balls. Pockets mark up the balls. The rail system, or return box is dumb. You can start your day with clean balls and in 15 minutes the balls are dirty. How or who cleans them out (NO ONE). Hell, it don't even sound like pool when the balls go into a pocket. I got to pretty much craw on the floor to get the balls out of the ball return. This is a real problem for older players.


I've been watching tons of tourny's and streams and I really haven't seen many racks strung together. (Break and runs) I think the most racks strung together I've seen on Diamonds has been maybe 3. Wonder why that is, I don't think it's because the players aren't great.

It's not the cloth, it's not the cues, it's not the chalk, it's not the balls. For me I'm left with only one conclusion, it' the Diamond tables.

I'm a older guy and maybe a little cranky but I'm no purest. I do miss the old days when pool was pool. I don't care what level you play at you want to run balls and racks.
 
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What?! Really? The reason you will get the skid on a Diamond is if they are not cared for properly. I know because I have to take care of 3 Diamond tables. If I am lazy and don't clean my balls then there will be skid. Diamonds are wonderful because they have no mercy. There is no BS shots making it in on a Diamond.
Another note for a lot of people who don't like the Diamonds, please come and try a true Diamond table. One that is properly equipped with Simonis cloth and a Aramith Super Pro ball set. One that has felt and balls that are cleaned daily. It is a a joy and a pleasure to play a game on my tables.
I was told once that good pool players don't need excuses. Guess they were wrong.
 
Archers View

I don't remember ever meeting any player who I saw play more than a few times who didn't blame the equipment , the weather, the noise, his opponent, it's always something and it's everybody including me.
If you say you never do , ask someone who you play around all the time and see what they say.
 
It's not the table...

It's the thought of Mrs. 9BP assaulting me with another honey-do list.

How the hell can I play good pool when that fear hovers over me? I can't, of course, so I blame my goddam equipment. Cue too.
 
whatsupsport said:
Sorry to say this, but Diamond tables suck. I go to my local pool hall and spend a brunch of my well earned dollards and leave pissed off. Pockets don't accept balls, rails bounce like they were made out of super balls. Pockets mark up the balls. The rail system, or return box is dumb. You can start your day with clean balls and in 15 minutes the balls are dirty. How or who cleans them out (NO ONE). Hell, it don't even sound like pool when the balls go into a pocket. I got to pretty much craw on the floor to get the balls out of the ball return. This is a real problem for older players.


I've been watching tons of tourny's and streams and I really haven't seen many racks strung together. (Break and runs) I think the most racks strung together I've seen on Diamonds has been maybe 3. Wonder why that is, I don't think it's because the players aren't great.

It's not the cloth, it's not the cues, it's not the chalk, it's not the balls. For me I'm left with only one conclusion, it' the Diamond tables.

I'm a older guy and maybe a little cranky but I'm no purest. I do miss the old days when pool was pool. I don't care what level you play at you want to run balls and racks.
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Wow! We are totally oppisite on this issue. I repect your opinion sir, but I feel just the opposite. I think Diamond's are a fine playing table. Just goes to show ya, we all have different tastes even if we love the same sport. The Diamond I play on is very well maintained, and if it spits up a ball because I hit too much rail, then I'm reminded that they all go if you hit em in the pocket. Interesting to see contrasting views! good discussion. Thanks :thumbup:
 
enzo said:
i think there are a lot of misconceptions about skids myself. i think the reasoning behind them makes sense, yet..... a few years ago i had a brand new set of brunswick centennials..... when i threw them on the table i saw more skids than ive ever seen.... when they presumably dirtied up, the skids were nowhere to be seen. so i have no idea why, just stating what i saw.
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My little knowledge of electricity would tell me that at first thought, I think a very clean ball would be better suited to developing a static charge, and also to conduct that charge to another object (like an object ball). So the "clean balls skid more" concept might be consistent with the static charge theory. It is still hard, however, to conceptualize how this might actually take place.

KMRUNOUT
 
Fatboy said:
Simonis cloth sucks nowdays, they are cutting all the nap off the 860, go find a 10 year old piece of 860 and compair it to the new 860. Its totally different, we get so many skids in Vegas it ruins playing 1P when you have 3 skids/game. the ONLY time it dosent skid is for the first 45-60 after its wiped down and vaacuumed, The old 860 wasnnt that way. the table has zero to do with the ball skidding
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Fatboy,

Are you sure you are not confusing the newer Simonis 860HR cloth with the "old" regular 860? As far as I know, the 860 cloth has not changed. However, the newer HR (humidity resistant) cloth they make now plays noticeably different. I personally don't like it as much. The ball slides in what to me seems a slightly more unnatural way. Just curious...if you know something about the original, non-HR cloth changing, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT
 
Break8Run9 said:
i respect his game but it seems like everytime he plays there is always some excuse about something. Its like every match there is to many balls in the pocket, or chalk on the cue ball, or someone in the audience moving. He has more complaints than anyone i have ever seen.
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Some people will see it that way. Other people will recognize that some people who are very very good at something simply have a heightened sensitivity to the very small details about their activity of choice. Just because we all don't recognize the minuscule affects some of these minor details have, it isn't really fair to consider those who do "nitpickers" (ok maybe Archer is a nitpicker lol...). Know what I mean? He probably "sees" more than you do with respect to pool and the conditions, so to judge him based on what *you* know says more about you than him. Not picking on you here, just addressing a common type of thinking that many others exhibit that I guess is something to think about.

KMRUNOUT
 
richiebalto said:
If he would of ran 500 balls he would said how great the table was,it was his own fault anyway he didnt notice the tiny piece of hair on the object ball thats what made it skid,well i guess even johnny cant see every little tiny piece of fiber.archer is one of the best ever,but is the biggest cry baby of all time!
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Are you suggesting he could be one and not the other? Perhaps the very attitudes that cause him to be what you perceive as a crybaby are exactly the attitudes that lead the exact and unique person that *he* is to be a world champion. Maybe he could have been a world champion anyway, but I sincerely doubt it. He built his game around his person...and the results speak for themselves.

Food for thought,

KMRUNOUT
 
Fatboy said:
I'll take a piece of that action, :):) Call me Neil I'll brink a good stake, and we'll take it down. I'll get me some cool shades like Burt Gordon wore in the Hustler and grind it out while we bust'em.
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Hey Mister...you've been sitting in that spot all night...

Ha ha...actually though, I think the poster said that (to paraphrase) "the people that Neil is implying don't know their stuff could give him the 5 out". I believe he was referring to Archer in this case. Thus I believe that it will be Mr. Archer heading up to play this match giving the 5 out. I don't know how Neil plays...but it would have to be pretty sporty...I know that's a lot of weight but this is Archer we're talking about...let me know when the PPV is scheduled ha ha!

KMRUNOUT
 
tryhonesty07 said:
that was kinda my point, it wasnt the table... but people think im trying to bash diamond, which is crazy. I will never have anything but diamonds.
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Regardless of what people say and think, it would be an error to interpret your original post as bashing Diamond. You made an observation about something you heard that seemed inconsistent with the popular conception of Diamond tables, and asked what others thought about it. It would only be an extremely defensive person (and there are MANY of those) that would take it any other way.

Rest easy,

KMRUNOUT
 
Fatboy said:
not talking about HR, I know the difference. Since they started shaving the regular 860 we in Vegas(dry air) get lots of skids, And I have had this problem with cloth that Glen and Ernesto has intalled so I cant lay blame on the guys who put it on my tables, both my GC and Diamond have problems with it. I went to see Tony at Black Boar he has "Fuzzy" 860, I asked him how old it was, he said about 10 years ago. I have the cloth that Ernesto put on a GC4 I bought in 99 and put it in my house that cloth was just like tony's there was more fuzz on it than there is now. I dont know why they are making the 860 play faster/longer. It was great before, now its between the old 860 and 760.

None of this has to do with tables, Skidding balls is not related to the slate at all IMO.


Like I said I know JA as good as or better than anyone here, we dont talk about pool all that much but the topic has came up several times about Diamond tables. He dosent hate them like he did a few years ago, he has sofened up his opinion. He likes Greg-there is no war there. Greg likes JA. Its not a personal thing between them, at all. infact JA will tell you that he ran his 15 pack on a old Diamond that playe harder than the new ones, and he is proud of that. That was when he was playing Busta, the race was 13(I think) and he had a 2 pack going into it or after it, JA said he ran 15 racks in a row on a Diamond table.


The bottom line is pool is business to JA as a pro and room owner. He has a family and wants to provide them with the best he can, if he believes he can play better and win more on a particular brand of table then he will take a position on that, based on his desire to succeed. All the other bullshit on this thread isnt worth a quarter.


This isnt directed at anyone one specific:*

Its his livelyhood not his hobby. Look at it like a truck driver who likes Peterbuilts better than Kenworths, its not their family car its a tool for business thats what a pool table is to JA-it just business-nothing more nothing less. Thats why we dont talk pool as friends, we leave that at the shop, sure at the M-cup we talked pool nonstop but we were open for biz so to speak for 4 days non-stop. Do you think we said a word about the M-Cup in the hour long drive to the airport Monday morning after the M-Cup? Nope. JA rarely reads anything here because he wants time off from work, pool is his job. Do you read message boards on your work related life? I sure dont. If you can understand that, then perhaps you can see why he says what he does. He is 100% honest and cant be bought off by anyone, his integrity is impeccable-every way in life. I'm his daughters God Father and I'm damn proud to be, not because he is a great player, because he is a great person.


best
Eric



*I was just trying a new style of writing where i'm trying to talk on a more personal level to the reader. So I wrote it like it was directed at one person, it wasnt. I really am working on my writing hard.
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Very Nice Post!! You speak very well of Archer, and it sounds like he is lucky to have a friend like you. Also, I think you distilled these 21 pages now down to 1 paragraph...well, at least all the stuff about JA. Tap Tap.

KMRUNOUT
 
Philthepockets said:
To infer that this issue is table specific is just plain nonsense. Kicks/skids are mostly caused by chalk and or some other debris getting between the contact points. I had this issue yesterday when a friend came over to play on my tournament spec riley, he was getting kicks left and right. I had him change the chalk he brought with him to a new piece from my box and presto no more kicks for the next 8 hours we played. His chalk had been in a poorly insulated metal case in the garage for a week so it was probably damp.
This issue has been ongoing in the snooker world for ever and has zero to do with the table. It seems to be more common on slow follow shots center ball where the blob of chalk will rotate forward and not get wiped off.
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Sounds like you have done some exhaustive and thorough research based on how absolute your statements are. You are certain that there are absolutely no differences between tables that might enhance the likelihood of a blob of chalk making its way to the surface of the ball? So the fact that Diamonds use a different type of balls, or different cloth, or put marks on the ball from the pockets, or any other table specific qualities...all this turned out through your research to have no effect? I'd be curious to hear more.

KMRUNOUT
 
realkingcobra said:
What's the date today? When did this comment from Johnny Archer take place?...that's my problem;) Diamond has made many changes in their tables over the last year...enough so that this post should have never been brought up a year later...as you...are the first to air this comment from Johnny. And furthermore....failed to find out that Johnny has a Diamond ProAm...."worst" table....in his pool room for that matter. Don't mean to jump you...but as far as I'm concerned...this is out of date!;)
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To be fair Glen, do you think it's likely that the poster or anyone else for that matter would be as up to date as you about the changes taking place with Diamond tables? We are all mostly amateurs and hobbyists, searching out info about the game we love. As is often the case with the internet, we often come across some info from a while back, but don't have enough info to know when in time that info was current. I think by the poster asking about it, it gives more informed people like you the opportunity to provide him with the missing details and get more "up to date". I know you love what you do based on your posts, so I would have thought this opportunity to enlighten someone would be one you would enjoy.

Also, as other posters have mentioned, the fact that JA has a Diamond in his room has really nothing to do with his opinion of the table. If you were a pro and lots of pro tourneys were played on your least favorite table, wouldn't you want one that you could at least practice on to get ready for tourneys? I know I would. In my fantasy pool room, I would have a Valley bar box set up just like the APA championships in Vegas. Even thought his setup it pure crap to me, I would still like to have access to it to prepare for a tourney there.

One last thing...someone else asked...is there an easy way to identify a newer Diamond with the new rail system from an older one? Any idea if the Super Billiard Expo will have newer 7 footers? I am really eager to see how they are.

Thanks for any insight you can provide,

KMRUNOUT
 
Fatboy said:
why is it that no one believes that, but you and me? and the 4th generation Durmith balls are differnt than the others.
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It has always been my understanding that the *surface* of the balls were different. Didn't Saluc talk all about some special hardened surface or something on the SAPro set, which was *not* present on the Cnetennial set?

Anyway, you are not the only one that believes that lol.

KMRUNOUT
 
dabarbr said:
A good number of things mentioned here are contributers to skid, but there is one thing all skids have in common. They are all hit very softly.

But the real question is why does the skid always wait for a critical shot to show itself?
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It doesn't. Millions of skids take place over time. Of those, a certain percentage will be critical shots. Those are the ones we remember and talk about. Simple as that.

KMRUNOUT
 
Moonraker said:
For those thinking it's the table -

If you took a Diamond with brand new Simonis 860 cloth (or any cloth for that matter) and shot 1000 balls, and 250 shots skidded...

then...

took the cloth off and placed it on a Gold Crown and shot 1000 balls (same balls), do you honestly think it would skid more or less?

Disregard cloth wear, chalk, dirt, ball wear, etc.

If you honestly think the results would be vastly different under this scenario, you are probably clinically diagnosable as insane. Seek help.

My guess on balls that skid is pretty simple - you hit the cue ball bad. We all do it, even the pros.
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So what were the results when you performed this experiment? Surely you are not content to rest your claim on assumption? If only all the scientists in the world had your gift of foreknowledge, they could have saved the world a LOT of time over the years...
 
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