Archer's View on Diamond tables

[Lance Link]

I could be wrong but a similar remark. Cost the men's pro tour years ago the support of the other big name table maker. And I beleive that they never sponsored another men's event since.

Seems to me that a lot of other sports hold the players accountable for thier words/actions. Fines are levied accordingly, and those fines/penalties also send a message to the rest of that sport's athletes.
Can you imagine if Brett Favre spoke negative about Wilson ? "Yeah, I was playing great, but when I threw to hit my receiver, the football had some friction, and I threw about 15 yards short".

I see threads on this forum all the time that talk about why pool isn't taken more seriously by the mainstream public.

And with pool in the state that it's in, this sport needs all the support it can get.

Hit Johnny Archer with a fine. Bad-mouthing a sponsor.

 

[gunzby]

Just to be clear, in the context of Archer's comment regarding the ball "skidding", we are not talking about the ball taking longer to begin to turn over and roll like on new cloth. We are talking about when two balls make contact with each other and "lock-up" resulting in a shot that appears to have been hit too full. Often times this produces a shot that misses by a lot. Frequently when this happens you can actually see it. The OB sort of goes along for a ride with the cue ball skidding in the process, before they finally part company and the OB takes off in its own direction. When it does it is on an entirely different path than the one intended.

If you don't see it you will definitely hear it. The balls make a tock instead of a tick.....well more like a clunk.

 

[btoneill]

Seems to me that a lot of other sports hold the players accountable for thier words/actions. Fines are levied accordingly, and those fines/penalties also send a message to the rest of that sport's athletes.
Can you imagine if Brett Favre spoke negative about Wilson ? "Yeah, I was playing great, but when I threw to hit my receiver, the football had some friction, and I threw about 15 yards short".

I see threads on this forum all the time that talk about why pool isn't taken more seriously by the mainstream public.

And with pool in the state that it's in, this sport needs all the support it can get.

Hit Johnny Archer with a fine. Bad-mouthing a sponsor.

That's the problem, with the men, there IS no one to do the fine. I'd be willing to bet that WPBA players have a whole host of rules of what they can and can not say about the WPBA sponsors.

Brian

 

[Fatboy]

Seems to me that a lot of other sports hold the players accountable for thier words/actions. Fines are levied accordingly, and those fines/penalties also send a message to the rest of that sport's athletes.
Can you imagine if Brett Favre spoke negative about Wilson ? "Yeah, I was playing great, but when I threw to hit my receiver, the football had some friction, and I threw about 15 yards short".

I see threads on this forum all the time that talk about why pool isn't taken more seriously by the mainstream public.

And with pool in the state that it's in, this sport needs all the support it can get.

Hit Johnny Archer with a fine. Bad-mouthing a sponsor.

you just dont get it, JA and Greg are cool with each other.


Hit him with a fine, yeah thats just what pool needs is moral police to silence the players, brilliant. Just brilliant.

read my post on the last page at the bottom, and maybe you'll understand whats really going on.

best
eric

 

[poolhustler]

Just two observations with no conclusions:

1. It is easier to play on a Gold Crown after playing on a Diamond than the other way around.

2. I really like Blue Diamond chalk because it has more abrasion but have experienced a lot more skid since using it.

Depends on how the tables are set up.

Be careful, BD will wear right through your ferrule!! lolzz

 

[poolhustler]

the pockets play real good.
sometimes the rails bounce to hard
but i like the way the pockets play.

Sorry CB i wasnt referring to the cut/shape of the pocket, but i was questioning about the dyed leather which leaves marks on the balls.

My GC has pockets cut the exact same as the new Diamonds and I love them.

 

[SCCues]

If Johnny says that after 146 balls I have to believe he's not just making excuses but has a theory that is worth examining.

I'd say Johnny knows a lot more about what he's talking about than most of us and there must be something to his statement that we aren't aware of. Maybe some of the table mechanics would comment on this.

James

 

[poolhustler]

Simonis cloth sucks nowdays, they are cutting all the nap off the 860, go find a 10 year old piece of 860 and compair it to the new 860. Its totally different, we get so many skids in Vegas it ruins playing 1P when you have 3 skids/game. the ONLY time it dosent skid is for the first 45-60 after its wiped down and vaacuumed, The old 860 wasnnt that way. the table has zero to do with the ball skidding

I played 9 ball and 1 pocket for 4 hours last night and didn't see one skid.

I got newish (two months old) 860, new "Diamonized" pockets and cushions from Glen.

Weird....

 

[Lance Link]

you just dont get it, JA and Greg are cool with each other.

Hit him with a fine, yeah thats just what pool needs is moral police to silence the players, brilliant. Just brilliant.

read my post on the last page at the bottom, and maybe you'll understand whats really going on.

best
eric

Ok...

Whether they're 'cool with each other' or not, doesn't make a difference. But seeing as how it's been brought up, then wouldn't that seem even MORE of a slap in the face to one of the largest sponsors of the game ?

Originally Posted by Poolhalljunkie

I could be wrong but a similar remark cost the men's pro tour years ago the support of the other big name table maker. And I beleive that they never sponsored another men's event since.

Look, Johnny Archer's entitled to his opinion. But to bad mouth a sponsor of that magnitude ? Not that bashing any sponsor, large or small, makes it right. Most people would be of the same opinion if Archer shot his mouth off about anyone else. For instance, Cueshark... Or Webb Custom Cues... Or TURNING STONE CASINO...

Ok. You've brought up that you are 'related' to Archer. Respectfully, that has NO bearing in this situation.
But what if Deuel ran his mouth negatively about the Joss tour ? What if Hatch started talking crap about AZBilliards ? What if Van Boening came out and said Cuetec made a lousy stick ?
Truthfully, would you have the same position about them that you have regarding Archer ?

Originally Posted by Btonelli

I'd be willing to bet that WPBA players have a whole host of rules of what they can and can not say about the WPBA sponsors.

Players in a heck of a lot of other sports get fined/penalized for shooting thier mouths off (in the heat of the moment or not). Why not pool ?

That's all. I'm done. I'm sure you'll find a way to reason yourself out of the answer. Flame away...

Frankly, arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

It's very difficult after all to determine exactly what may be the cause of higher skid percentage (if that stands true) in a specific table.
It is true that cloth/balls/cushions of today are different, not necessarily better compared to that of early 90's... Also most of the slate used today is of Brasilian origin not Italian which is considered the best. And who guarantees if a table is not made in China (or parts of it) like it is said around for most of today's tables?...
So any material used could possibly affect anything that happens during play, it would take hi tec and a independent authority to establish specs, this can only add to the benefit of the sport.
I still stand by the right of champions to express freely their opinion it's for the benefit of the sport. They do it in other sports for e.g. in last Soccer World cup in Africa there were complains about the new ball used. No player got any penalty for stating that in a sport where multiple billions are thrown in.
The Soccer companies do take these remarks into consideration and they extend their research in order to provide better equipment in the future.
Again: people like Johnny Archer are the reason why most of us play pool and the reason table companies make millions... They deserve much more respect than it is given them. Johnny Archer as everyone knows has never given any rights for disrespect throughout his career and his opinion about anything on the game should be taken very seriously..
Petros

 

[Celtic]

If you're not dead on, a Diamond will exploit that or any other weakness quicker than any other table - and Diamonds don't discriminate. They care if your name is Efren, Corey, Earl, Shane, or Johnny - if you don't bear down on every shot, you'll pay for it.

What was the use of this post? We are talking about skids, which are in fact an issue on any table they are happening on and they tend to happen on Diamonds to a huge degree more then other tables.

Missing a ball because of a skid is not "oh, you should have just beared down more". It is a phenomena that takes place even if the player hits the exact contact point to pot the object ball with the exact spin/speed to get shape on the next ball and the faulty contact between the cueball and object ball screws up the shot. It is NOT something the player can control, unless you think that players changing the way to shoot the ball and NOT playing the proper spin/speed for the best shapeplay JUST in order to avoid a skid is somehow "good" for pool.

I mean hell, if they invent a table where every ball that goes into a pocket bounces off the bottom of the pocket and back out onto the table would you suggest we just all start rolling balls pocket weight instead of fixing the friggin table? You attitude in that post that we should just ignore what might actually be a fixable flaw in the making of what is otherwise a great table is absurd. I don't want pro events decided on who gets less skids, there is enough "luck of the gods" crap that determines matches between two top pros in this game as it is. If we can fix a small part of that and make skill a more critical deciding factor in any way we should do it.

 

[Celtic]

if there really is a problem i'm sure they'd address it but pointing it out in public like that only makes the company look bad.

It is a problem on Diamonds that has been there for years. Keeping quiet was not exactly fixing the issue.

 

[ccshrimper]

ANYTIME you want to try and give me the 5 out, just come on up!!:grin-square:

I'm not coming anywhere near where you live in the winter unless you play me even for a large amount

 

[peteypooldude]

A question to people smarter than me.
Can static affect ball reaction ?

 

[Celtic]

As far as sharing goes...as you like to put it, then why don't you SHARE the fact that Johnny Archer....HAS in fact...a Diamond 9ft ProAm in his pool room!...or DIDN'T you know about that?

It was mentioned in the thread prior to your post actually.

And seriously, of course Archer has a Diamond in his pool room. The guy is a professional pool player, a huge number of professional touranments are played on Diamond tables. Archer is going to have a Diamond table to practice on, that is a no brainer.

Archer would have a Fisher Price pool table in his pool hall too if the WPC suddenly said all future world championship events were to be played on them.

 

[GetMeThere]

I like this thread: useful observations, and a lot of creative thinking.

SKIDS MUST BE STOPPED. And I think equipment makers need to take the issue VERY SERIOUSLY.

Some interesting ideas presented so far:

By RKC: Aramith pro balls much more skid-prone than Brunswick

By DogsPlayingPool: That damn leather pocket dye. Diamond--it's time to take this seriously. Haven't you heard ENOUGH complaining about it yet?

By others: Static. An interesting idea I hadn't thought of. I think the actual "phenomenon" would consist of static on balls making them super-attractive to chalk dust--and that's what causes the skids. But what would be the difference on Diamond tables that would increase static? Different rubber in the rails? Something in the ball return system? Some coating or process regarding the slate? Or maybe the damn pocket dye faintly coats the balls with a static-enhancing property?

Skid ruins the game for those who take it seriously...


Note: Sorry if I got the credit attributions wrong--just read through quickly and noted a couple of names...

 

[Celtic]

A question to people smarter than me.
Can static affect ball reaction ?

Theoretically it could. You have a cue ball charged with alot of negative ions, you have a object ball with a more neutral charge, you could get to a point where you have charge flow from the cueball to the object ball, and when this happens the positive of the object ball is going to disproportionately move to the contact point of the object ball while the negative of the cueball moves to the contact point.

This theoretically could increase the length of time the contact between the object ball and cueball exists due to the magnetic effect of postive/negative and on a cut shot that causes the cueball to "push" the object ball forward abit and thus you end up undercutting the object ball despite hitting the proper geometrical contact point.

Does this actually take place? You would need to do a scientific study of it and it would take a long time and alot of equipement/money.

 

[Philthepockets]

To infer that this issue is table specific is just plain nonsense. Kicks/skids are mostly caused by chalk and or some other debris getting between the contact points. I had this issue yesterday when a friend came over to play on my tournament spec riley, he was getting kicks left and right. I had him change the chalk he brought with him to a new piece from my box and presto no more kicks for the next 8 hours we played. His chalk had been in a poorly insulated metal case in the garage for a week so it was probably damp.
This issue has been ongoing in the snooker world for ever and has zero to do with the table. It seems to be more common on slow follow shots center ball where the blob of chalk will rotate forward and not get wiped off.

 

[GetMeThere]

Theoretically it could. You have a cue ball charged with alot of negative ions, you have a object ball with a more neutral charge, you could get to a point where you have charge flow from the cueball to the object ball, and when this happens the positive of the object ball is going to disproportionately move to the contact point of the object ball while the negative of the cueball moves to the contact point.

This theoretically could increase the length of time the contact between the object ball and cueball exists and on a cut shot that causes the cueball to "push" the object ball forward abit and thus you end up undercutting the object ball despite hitting the proper geometrical contact point.

Does this actually take place? You would need to do a scientific study of it and it would take a long time and alot of equipement/money.

All that seems kinda unlikely, IMO. First, why should different balls take on OPPOSITE charges? If they're made out of the same stuff they should take on the same charge.

Secondly, the balls are probably heavy enough that electrostatic attraction would be a vanishingly small component of the forces--not enough to cause skid.

My bet is (IF static is a cause of skid) the reason is that a charge on the balls acts to attract chalk dust, which then causes the skid.

 

[alstl]

I was watching the 2010 DCC 14.1 challenge tonight and specifically Johnny Archers 146 ball run. What ended the run appeared to be a ball skidding, which resulted in him missing a shot in the side pocket. After this, he starting talking about the shot.... then says "thats why these are the worst tables ever built" and goes on to say something about Gold Crowns that I was unable to hear. This is the first time I've ever heard a top pro dog Diamond like that. Just thought I would share.

I didn't hear what he said about gold crowns either but I'm pretty sure it was "worst tables ever built except for gold crowns". Or maybe "gold crowns give me the frowns". Or maybe "but at least these diamonds roll straight unlike gold crowns". Or maybe "I down with gold crown". Or maybe "only clowns play on gold crowns ". Or maybe I'm extremely bored.



Just thought I would share.