Are bar tables hurting the game

[King T]

There is old saying, there is strength in numbers.

Problem with a boss load of group is Kos, and Kos different set of rules.

Remember when Pro Football was National Football League, and American Football leagues. Now all Pro Football is under the NFL combined league.

If you play APA you play APA rules, BCA, TAP or Valley is the same. When I have time a play wherever I can and asking the rules is as simple as asking the rules and they really aren't all that different.

Truth be told our game just needs sponsorship and a lot of it$$$$, they right sponsors could get everybody in line.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

If you play APA you play APA rules, BCA, TAP or Valley is the same. When I have time a play wherever I can and asking the rules is as simple as asking the rules and they really aren't all that different.

Truth be told our game just needs sponsorship and a lot of it$$$$, they right sponsors could get everybody in line.

And what do the sponsors get for their investment? Nobody watches pool on television. The women had to pay to get their matches televised on ESPN. Earl played with a CueTec cue for a large portion of his career, so equipment is not as much of a factor in pool. Golf is a game played and followed by those with wealth and power, so it has a built-in marketing set up. Golfers advertise for Cadillacs and Rolexes. Golfers will buy a $1000 set of clubs without blinking an eye, along with all the other products advertised during a golf tournament. Pool players are lucky to be able to pay their rent, without a girlfriend. Pool (at least in America) is a game generally played by folks with nothing better to do, or who just want to have a good time whilst drinking with friends.

Golf has a metric sh*tton of youth programs, and no public golf course turns away children. Neither one of these ideas has a corollary in pool.

 

[King T]

And what do the sponsors get for their investment? Nobody watches pool on television. The women had to pay to get their matches televised on ESPN. Earl played with a CueTec cue for a large portion of his career, so equipment is not as much of a factor in pool. Golf is a game played and followed by those with wealth and power, so it has a built-in marketing set up. Golfers advertise for Cadillacs and Rolexes. Golfers will buy a $1000 set of clubs without blinking an eye, along with all the other products advertised during a golf tournament. Pool players are lucky to be able to pay their rent, without a girlfriend. Pool (at least in America) is a game generally played by folks with nothing better to do, or who just want to have a good time whilst drinking with friends.

Golf has a metric sh*tton of youth programs, and no public golf course turns away children. Neither one of these ideas has a corollary in pool.

Dont know where you live, but APA and the BCA have a few hundred thousand memebers, along with a few billion people in China and India and across Africa where the Black Ball rules have been changed to mirror 8 Ball rules, so the sponsors do have a captive audience if advertised to correctly.

And there more drunks playing darts and cornhole than Pool and both of those mindless games have major sponsors.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Dont know where you live, but APA and the BCA have a few hundred thousand memebers, along with a few billion people in China and India and across Africa where the Black Ball rules have been changed to mirror 8 Ball rules, so the sponsors do have a captive audience if advertised to correctly.

And there more drunks playing darts and cornhole than Pool and both of those mindless games have major sponsors.

Exactly how many league members where you live, will watch even free streams?

Yeah, that's what I thought. Lots of amateurs like PLAYING pool while getting 4 or 5 beers down their gullet on a Wednesday night.. But will watch Nascar, NFL, NBA, NHL.. Literally ANYTHING but pool. Because pool is deadarsed boring for those who don't play well enough to understand what they are looking at.

 

[Nick B]

My analogy was just fine. Yes, if a 9 foot and a 7 foot both have the same size pockets, then the 9 would be tougher. But if a 7 foot has substantially smaller pockets, then the difficulty level will be very close for both tables. The margin of error is the same. Its basic geometry.

Want proof? Study Dr Dave's pool table difficulty factor thread. You will find many examples of 7 foot tables with the same difficulty factor as 9 foots.

And these are the tables we find in bars and pool halls or are they not just standard pocket versions?

 

[buckshotshoey]

And these are the tables we find in bars and pool halls or are they not just standard pocket versions?

In a few cases, yes. Most cases, no. The point I was making is a 7 foot can be set up to rival the difficulty of a standard (5 in pocket) 9 foot.

Only 10 on that list and only one that's above average at 1.03.

Still, the technical aspects of the two tables or how the game is played on either is not what this thread is about.

And there are several 9 foot tables on that list that are below average difficulty. I'm saying that 7 foot tables are not necessary the problem with American pool. They can be set up to be very challenging. Which is what this thread is about.

The price is, if it's too challenging to the average person, they loose interest. I do drills on my table that I set a goal of 80 percent success rate. Damn tough to do on mine, but easy on a common table found in a bar. But I'm in this game for life, and I domt get discouraged easily.

 

[Zerksies]

And these are the tables we find in bars and pool halls or are they not just standard pocket versions?

My 7 footer at home has 4" pockets.

 

[King T]

Exactly how many league members where you live, will watch even free streams?

Yeah, that's what I thought. Lots of amateurs like PLAYING pool while getting 4 or 5 beers down their gullet on a Wednesday night.. But will watch Nascar, NFL, NBA, NHL.. Literally ANYTHING but pool. Because pool is deadarsed boring for those who don't play well enough to understand what they are looking at.

They might watch Pool if it was easily available to watch like the NBA, NFL, NHL or Auto Racing, but thats not the case, there is no coverage for Pool, so asking them to stream it is not the same as asking them to turn on the TV.

And none of those sports relays on streaming for revenue, they dont care about anything other than national advertisers.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

They might watch Pool if it was easily available to watch like the NBA, NFL, NHL or Auto Racing, but thats not the case, there is no coverage for Pool, so asking them to stream it is not the same as asking them to turn on the TV.

And none of those sports relays on streaming for revenue, they dont care about anything other than national advertisers.

Pool use to be on Television, advertisers was return on investment.

I hear all the time from small business owner in Cigar industry, support your local brick n motor.

When the same product is 30% cheaper on line I am spending my money where I get best deal.

Those brick and motor are not my favorite charity.

Corporate America know how to track effectiveness of advertising dollar spent.

They spend where there is return on investment, not loss.

 

[sjm]

On balance, bar tables are helping, not hurting, the game in America, making the game accessible to so many. Have bar table events lowered the pedigree of American pros? Probably, but that's a much smaller issue.

 

[pw98]

Let's look at it from a scientific point of view. It all depends on how the table is set up. If you are playing on a box with huge pockets and wide pocket angles, then yes, skills will never improve.

Now, play on a 7 foot table with 4 1/4 inch pockets and a 141 deg pocket angle and deeper shelves. Very different animal. Research Penguin Pro Cut Rails.

Our 9 foot Gold Crown has standard 5 inch pockets. I think it plays easier then my United bar box with 4 3/8 ( I re measured... they are slightly less then 4 1/4)pockets. I dont rattle pockets on the 9 ft like I do on the 7 foot.

Let's use an analogy that some of you rifle shooters will appreciate. Rifle accuracy is usually described in MOA (MINUTE OF ANGLE). If a rifle will hold 1 minute of angle at 100 yards, then it will be the same 1 moa at 50 yards. In a no wind condition and a solid rest, it is exactly the same to shoot 1 moa groups at 50 yards, and 1 moa groups at 100 yards. It is just as easy to shoot 1/2 in groups at 50 yards as it is 1 in groups at 100 yards.

Same with the tables. Bigger pockets on the bigger table will play the same as a smaller table with smaller pockets. Of course that doesnt take into account the tighter traffic on the small table.

To conclude, if you are playing with good cue ball control, you wont have any longer shots on a 9 foot then you would a 7 foot. Now, if I reduce the 9 foot pockets to 4 1/4 , then it's a whole new ball game.

Except you cant reach all those 'same length' shots on a 9 foot. So its not the same.

Also, the ability to cheat the pocket is important too. On a smaller table you can get much more out of a pocket cheat with the same size pockets as a larger table.

I do agree though that a smaller table can in fact be harder to pocket balls on compared to a larger table with large buckets. I think Dr. Dave's TDF handles this rather nicely.

But overall, the 9 foot is harder to play on assuming its not something like a like a stock GC with huge pockets.

Also, a lot of the players here play on 9 footers with pockets like that 7 footer you are describing, which I can assure you is a TON harder than that table.

Face it, the 7 footer is a joke compared to the 9 footer. That is unless you compare some edge cases like you just did: the easiest 9 footers ever made to the toughest 7 footers ever made. Which isn't a realisitic comparison.

 

[pw98]

The app said, and I quote , "Preventing pro players from performing where they belong (9ft)."

The point I was trying to make is it is just as easy, or just as hard, to hit a 5-in pocket at 7 ft, as it is 4 1/4 inch pocket at 5 ft. The difficulty is the same in my opinion.

The first time we actually played games on our 9-ft, I had two break and runs back to back. I have never in my life been able to do that on a 7 ft. And yes I do have a witness. So yes, I think the game of 8 ball is easier on a 9-ft table, if you can control the cue ball, which that day I did.

The difficulty might be the same for pocketing but there is much more to this game than pocketing.

Lets apply that MOA stuff to position play. The reason it works is because there is a linear relationship. Well the same thing goes for position play but in reverse. Basically if you are off a little bit in direciton on the 7 footer you dont notice it much because the distance traveled is short. But when you start making that distance larger you end up off by a lot.

The same thing with speed. Sure, on a 9 footer you might be leaving yourself the same relative shot as a 7 footer, but on the 7 footer the distance between the balls is still much shorter which makes cueball control much easier for the 'same' shot.

Also, on the 7 footer you dont need to power the ball around like on a 9 footer with worn cloth.

Basically, sure you can make a 7 footer just as hard or harder to pocket balls on as a bucket 9 footer. However, there the distances involved on the 9 footer make direction control and speed control much harder. The same goes for a 10 footers vs a 9 footer.

There is a reason at the local 9 footer tournaments these young bar box players show up one time, leave themselves shots they cant reach all night long, blame it on only playing bar boxes, then never come back... Or they end up leaving themselves a shot they have to muscle and cant do it effectively.

 

[pw98]

You are picking your spots. Lets take Diamond as the standard. Pocket size. shelf and cut are the same for both models. Your 5" inch GC analogy doesn't hold water. In fact most BB come if aforementioned 5" pockets. The owner/operators are incentivized to make games go quickly. More games/hr = more $/hour = more beer/hr = more $/hr.

If bar Boxes were good for the game then USA would be dominant.

Yup, he is comparing two extremes and making a generalization about it.

 

[pw98]

My analogy was just fine. Yes, if a 9 foot and a 7 foot both have the same size pockets, then the 9 would be tougher. But if a 7 foot has substantially smaller pockets, then the difficulty level will be very close for both tables. The margin of error is the same. Its basic The geometry.

Want proof? Study Dr Dave's pool table difficulty factor thread. You will find many examples of 7 foot tables with the same difficulty factor as 9 foots.

The margin of error is not the same though, it might be for pocketing balls, but that is the easiest part of this game.

 

[pw98]

And these are the tables we find in bars and pool halls or are they not just standard pocket versions?

They are an outlier case obviously. The amount of tables that exist of this size pockets are obviously about in proportion to 9 footers with the same size pockets: rare. Actually I would say around here they are even rarer.

 

[phreaticus]

I like both big tables & barboxes and personally don’t get the whole concept of “bar tables are the death of pool in USA”… The SVB perspective posted earlier in the thread is a good summary of all that IMO.

Its not like small tables in bars is just a USA thing anyway. I don’t seem to see folks complaining about English/blackball being an evil death blow to snooker. Beyond the UK, its played widely in other parts of EU, India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, parts of the Caribbean, etc.

Anything that gets people socializing in person & hitting balls is a good thing. Thats my $0.02

 

[garczar]

You heard me

I just measured two Valley's and on both the sides were 5". No big deal.

 

[softshot]

I just measured two Valley's and on both the sides were 5". No big deal.

Mine measure 4 5/8" but we'll go with 5 just for you..

Now go measure the sides on a non modified 9footer any brand... I'll wait here

 

[TrxR]

I just measured two Valley's and on both the sides were 5". No big deal.

We're these factory style Valley rails? Did you notice the difference in how they are cut? They will not accept shots from as wide of an angle as other pockets.

I'll have to measure the pockets on the 5 Valleys that I play on Thursday.

 

[TrxR]

Mine measure 4 5/8" but we'll go with 5 just for you..

Now go measure the sides on a non modified 9footer any brand... I'll wait here

There have been mechanics that say the side pocket should not be smaller than 4.75" , and if I remember right Diamond told me they run 4.75" side even with 4" corner pockets.

I've found Valley side pockets more difficult than other tables.