Are kill shots necessary?

[TATE]

I use kill shots every now and then. I think this is mostly habit, good or bad, because I usually just use a slow roll now.

For those who may not be familiar with the term, a kill shot is when you hit the cue ball softly with draw. The backspin slows the cue ball before impact with the object ball and it dies in place. I try to work my kill shots so the cue ball starts rolling just before impact with the OB. I've also heard it referred to as a drag shot.

On a well leveled table, I don't see where kill is better than a slow roll, at least with center ball shots. So why kill the shot when you can just roll the cue ball softly?

Chris

 

[Russ Chewning]

I use kill shots every now and then. I think this is mostly habit, good or bad, because I usually just use a slow roll now.

For those who may not be familiar with the term, a kill shot is when you hit the cue ball softly with draw. The backspin slows the cue ball before impact with the object ball and it dies in place. I try to work my kill shots so the cue ball starts rolling just before impact with the OB. I've also heard it referred to as a drag shot.

On a well leveled table, I don't see where kill is better than a slow roll, at least with center ball shots. So why kill the shot when you can just roll the cue ball softly?

Chris

Because using a kill stroke will work on a table with a little roll off to it, where as a slow roll will not. And because when you do a "draw drag" shot, you can have confidence that the cue ball will end up where you hit it. With a slow roll, this is not often the case.

I used to just murder the bar table tournaments back in Washington state because I got real good at getting normal position on tables that had a bad roll off. I would draw drag every shot that I was not stunning, following, or drawing. I could slow roll a ball when I needed to, but with the draw drag a well used part of my arsenal, I rarely needed to unless I was playing a close quarters safety.

Russ

 

[wayne]

Because using a kill stroke will work on a table with a little roll off to it, where as a slow roll will not. And because when you do a "draw drag" shot, you can have confidence that the cue ball will end up where you hit it. With a slow roll, this is not often the case.

I used to just murder the bar table tournaments back in Washington state because I got real good at getting normal position on tables that had a bad roll off. I would draw drag every shot that I was not stunning, following, or drawing. I could slow roll a ball when I needed to, but with the draw drag a well used part of my arsenal, I rarely needed to unless I was playing a close quarters safety.

Russ

Good reasons, a couple of additional ones are you can use more of a stroke and you can use English effectively with a "draw drag".

Wayne

 

[TATE]

Good reasons, a couple of additional ones are you can use more of a stroke and you can use English effectively with a "draw drag".

Wayne

I agree with both wayne and Russ above. The side spin will be more effective because of the firmer stroke, and the firmer stroke tends to straighten the cue ball on a poorly leveled table.

The best kill player I've ever seen was Mexican Ronnie (Rosas). He never let the cue ball run and it didn't matter much if a table was level. He killed everything.

With the advent of simonis, decent rails, and hopefully level tables, the importance of the kill shot has been reduced in my book.

Chris

 

[sjm]

Speaking as one who likes to roll balls more than most, the points in favor of using drag follow (a.k.a. drag draw) have been made well, and the arguments presented are valid. Still, one argument in favor of hitting closer to the vertical center of the cue ball is that there is less squirt on a slightly inaccurate hit of the cue ball in which english is unintentionally applied.

I'm of the opinion that on a level table, drag draw is no better than slow rolling. On good equipment, one should play to ones preference. No doubt, though, on an unlevel table, slow rolling balls will rarely be a good idea.

 

[wayne]

I'm of the opinion that on a level table, drag draw is no better than slow rolling.

It often depends on what position you need to play, I can play to a lot of positions with drag draw that are not possible with slow rolling.

Wayne

 

[sjm]

It often depends on what position you need to play, I can play to a lot of positions with drag draw that are not possible with slow rolling.

Wayne

Please teach this old dog some new tricks by offering some examples. Thanks, Wayne.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Please teach this old dog some new tricks by offering some examples. Thanks, Wayne.

Well, for one, a draw drag shot with inside english tends to spread more off the rail than follow and inside english. For examples of this, watch Efren.

HE might have a few things to teach you.

Russ

 

[sjm]

Well, for one, a draw drag shot with inside english tends to spread more off the rail than follow and inside english. For examples of this, watch Efren.

HE might have a few things to teach you.

Russ

Thanks, Russ.

Still, the drag shot with english is not what I feel is referred to in the inital post of this thread. I believe that center ball drag draw and the slow roll are being compared.

 

[Gregg]

I think the idea is that there is a difference between a kill shot and slow rolling the cue ball with cut shots on the object ball.

Slow rolling cue ball will produce slight top spin, and a full hit, the cue ball will follow slightly after contact of the object ball, or slight to the left or right.

Stunned/sliding/dead cue ball used in a kill shot, will allow the cue ball to follow the tangent line, or perpendicular bisector from the object ball. This can be useful to obtain position on the next ball.

Does this sound right, or am I being Capt. Obvious here?

 

[RSB-Refugee]

For those who may not be familiar with the term, a kill shot is when you hit the cue ball softly with draw. The backspin slows the cue ball before impact with the object ball and it dies in place. I try to work my kill shots so the cue ball starts rolling just before impact with the OB. I've also heard it referred to as a drag shot.

I'm not sure I agree with your description of a kill shot. What your describing sounds like a drag follow. Basically it is hit firmer than a slow roll. The backspin wears off just in time to barely get forward roll. It is the tought of many, that a firm shot has less chance of straying if it rolls over small debris.

I think a "kill shot" is a little more complicated than what you are describing. IMO most kill shots do have a little back spin upon contact. There is also an element of check english on the first rail after contact, or spin induced throw is incorporated to hit the OB slightly fuller, which decreases the amount of tangential travel. One of the assets that the kill shot affords is, it allows you to run away from, or toward the next ball, rather than trying to slow roll through a narrow position zone.

I had a guy ask me what a stun shot is. I told him, it is when a cue ball is sliding upon contact. He said, no it's when you hit a shot with so much follow it hits the same rail twice consecutively. Sure, that shot may be stunning, but it is not a stun shot. The more I think about it, this may just be, a difference of terminology.

Tracy

Disclaimer: If this post makes no sense, it could be because I have been up for twenty hours.

 

[TATE]

I'm not sure I agree with your description of a kill shot. What your describing sounds like a drag follow. Basically it is hit firmer than a slow roll. The backspin wears off just in time to barely get forward roll. It is the tought of many, that a firm shot has less chance of straying if it rolls over small debris.

I think a "kill shot" is a little more complicated than what you are describing. IMO most kill shots do have a little back spin upon contact. There is also an element of check english on the first rail after contact, or spin induced throw is incorporated to hit the OB slightly fuller, which decreases the amount of tangential travel. One of the assets that the kill shot affords is, it allows you to run away from, or toward the next ball, rather than trying to slow roll through a narrow position zone.

I had a guy ask me what a stun shot is. I told him, it is when a cue ball is sliding upon contact. He said, no it's when you hit a shot with so much follow it hits the same rail twice consecutively. Sure, that shot may be stunning, but it is not a stun shot. The more I think about it, this may just be, a difference of terminology.

Tracy

Disclaimer: If this post makes no sense, it could be because I have been up for twenty hours.

The shot I'm talking about is when you use soft draw to slow the cue ball before impact. There are many ways to change the tangent and kill the cue ball off the rail or after impact. I am strictly discussing using soft draw to slow the cue ball before impact.

Chris

 

[TATE]

I think the idea is that there is a difference between a kill shot and slow rolling the cue ball with cut shots on the object ball.

Slow rolling cue ball will produce slight top spin, and a full hit, the cue ball will follow slightly after contact of the object ball, or slight to the left or right.

Stunned/sliding/dead cue ball used in a kill shot, will allow the cue ball to follow the tangent line, or perpendicular bisector from the object ball. This can be useful to obtain position on the next ball.

Does this sound right, or am I being Capt. Obvious here?

The kill shot I'm discussing is usually a longer shot hit with draw where you want to take speed off the cue ball before impact. The net effect is similar cue ball travel as as slow rolled shot.

Chris

 

[Gregg]

The kill shot I'm discussing is usually a longer shot hit with draw where you want to take speed off the cue ball before impact. The net effect is similar cue ball travel as as slow rolled shot.

Chris

Oh, OK. So the cue ball is hit with lots of draw, it decays into a sliding or stunned cue ball, and then starts rolling forward before contacting the object ball.

Got it.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

The only instance I can think of where I prefer a drag-draw stroke (on a level table) instead of a slow roll, is getting position on the 2ball from the 1ball like this:

CueTable Help

The cueball doesn't show up, so it's point 'A', and point 'B' is where the cueball stops.

When I use the drag draw stroke on this shot, it seems to give slightly more force to the 1ball, so it doesn't just barely make it to the hole. The 1 seems to go fall with a faster pace. When I roll this shot, alot of bad things can happen, like skid, or the 1ball doesn't even make it to the hole. For some reason, with a soft drag draw stroke, I can control this shot much better. I don't know the physics aspect of why this shot works better for me, maybe someone can explain. Perhaps I might accidentally be adding some outside english at the last second, throwing it in and reducing the angle. I can really hold the cueball better this way.

Also, I'm not 100% sure this is the exact angle of the shot I'm talking about. I'm gonna practice it today and find the exact angle. If the angle is different, just by a few degrees, slow rolling for me is no problem.

Edit: 'A' isn't showing up either, so the cueball starting position is at the point of the green line.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

The shot I'm talking about is when you use soft draw to slow the cue ball before impact. There are many ways to change the tangent and kill the cue ball off the rail or after impact. I am strictly discussing using soft draw to slow the cue ball before impact.

Chris

I understand which one you are talking about. I would not call it a kill shot. I use the word hot, others say caliente instead, either way we both know it can burn. Ray Martin used the term "Draw Drag" in his "99 Critical Shots", for the shot you are describing. I do think it is important to learn to use the draw drag shot. It is a very good shot to give a player visual feedback of a tables speed. I would not discount the shot, I believe it does have merit.

Tracy

 

[TATE]

I understand which one you are talking about. I would not call it a kill shot. I use the word hot, others say caliente instead, either way we both know it can burn. Ray Martin used the term "Draw Drag" in his "99 Critical Shots", for the shot you are describing. I do think it is important to learn to use the draw drag shot. It is a very good shot to give a player visual feedback of a tables speed. I would not discount the shot, I believe it does have merit.

Tracy

Hey Tracy,

My "old timerness" comes through I guess. We used to call this "kill" 30 years ago. I've seen it referred to as "draw drag" in the last few years and instantly understood the term. Now I pretty much favor the slow roll because the equipment I play on usually is level. It's a pretty shot when executed well too.

Chris

 

[TATE]

The only instance I can think of where I prefer a drag-draw stroke (on a level table) instead of a slow roll, is getting position on the 2ball from the 1ball like this:

CueTable Help

The cueball doesn't show up, so it's point 'A', and point 'B' is where the cueball stops.

When I use the drag draw stroke on this shot, it seems to give slightly more force to the 1ball, so it doesn't just barely make it to the hole. The 1 seems to go fall with a faster pace. When I roll this shot, alot of bad things can happen, like skid, or the 1ball doesn't even make it to the hole. For some reason, with a soft drag draw stroke, I can control this shot much better. I don't know the physics aspect of why this shot works better for me, maybe someone can explain. Perhaps I might accidentally be adding some outside english at the last second, throwing it in and reducing the angle. I can really hold the cueball better this way.

Also, I'm not 100% sure this is the exact angle of the shot I'm talking about. I'm gonna practice it today and find the exact angle. If the angle is different, just by a few degrees, slow rolling for me is no problem.

Edit: 'A' isn't showing up either, so the cueball starting position is at the point of the green line.

I pretty much have tried to set up shots where the drag draw holds the cue ball better than slow roll, but I found the opposite is true. I can control the cue ball movement better with a slow roll, at least on a level table with decent cloth.

I really haven't found a shot where this is absolutely necessary, but like you, I sometimes prefer to make a more agressive stroke and put some speed on the object ball. These slow rolled shots also seem more subject to cling for some reason.

Chris

 

[Nick B]

I like the shot but...

Their is three small problems with the shot.

1. You must do it with pure backspin (no side vector) or you get a delayed masse when the backspin wears. Try it. I play a lot of golf on 12 footers and you can really do some nice stuff with this shot.

2. If you hit your ball as above and it hits the object ball at the transition point it tends to kick or and play a little shallow (undercut).

3. Even with no side spin on as above it still tends to kick.

CueTable Help

 

[DJKeys]

My impression of a kill shot is when you have a very thin cut and you need the cueball to die when it hits the rail instead of taking its normal angle and speed. This is accomplished with extreme inside english combined with draw-