Are League Playoffs Fair?

[AF pool guy]

I'm not understanding why, after so many weeks of competition, players should be given the chance to dramatically upgrade their standing and prize money in the league in one shot, on the final day.



Why is it so important to have playoffs?

Simply to maintain interest. Halfway through a session the final rankings are pretty much locked in. It is possible in a 14 week session, assuming 8 teams in a division that the #1 and 2 teams won't play each other after week 8 or one team will have a lock on 1st before they even meet their nearest rival a second time.

In a large round robin format or double round robin format as many leagues are, most of the final rounds are completely pointless.

Human nature being what it is, there is a segment of folks who just up and quit once their chances become mathematically impossible. Unfortunately to maintain the cash business aspect of a league you need a mechanism to keep the dead money coming in. A second chance, no matter how remote, helps maintain the interest till the end.

Also a playoff gives the entire session a sense of purpose, that it has all been leading up to something. Imagine if football just declared the team with the best record champion rather than staging the dramatic culmination that is the Super Bowl.

Or to use a pool analogy, what if we just added up the years winnings of the top 5 US pros vs those of the top 5 Europeans and declared them the Mosconi Cup winners without playing a single head to head match?

It's all psychology and marketing. Something the business of pool could use more of.

 

[justadub]

I'm not understanding why, after so many weeks of competition, players should be given the chance to dramatically upgrade their standing and prize money in the league in one shot, on the final day.

Why is it so important to have playoffs?

It's pretty easy to see who the top competitors are, in any group of people. In whichever league you are participating in, it becomes obvious quickly.

Even if it's handicapped.

While there are many who will try and compete despite not having a chance to defeat the very best, that number will be a FAR smaller group than if you find a way to involve more people.

I guess I don't understand the resistance to it.

Of course, I'm a sports fan, and in virtually all organized sporting activities, there are season/session ending playoffs. From major league big time sports like MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, MLS etc. Down through most every level of sports, to the kids level.

It's kind of ingrained in our competitive culture here in the US.

 

[Tobermory]

I played in a locally arranged, multi-week pool tournament (= league/ avant la lettre, as the French say) in 1973. I have never even considered playing in such a thing again, so positive was the experience. The moderator would be very upset with me if I were to quote the colorful formulation one of the other survivors uses to this day to describe his antipathy to repeating the experience, but it involves a sledge hammer. I will instead quote this aphorism from the same source: "If there's a clipboard involved, it's not pool."

I understand the promoters' having to keep the participants interested and paying throughout the season, but the only time having a tournament after all the regular season play is over to determine the ultimate winner is fair is when the participants in the post-season tournament have not had a chance to play one another during the regular season. E.G.: The World Series, as opposed to the playoffs.

 

[MikeTheKite]

In my league Top 5 teams in the standings get 65% of the money with 1st getting the largest amount, then the top 5 teams in playoffs get a share, with 1st getting the most. Playoff seeding is 1vs2 3vs4 5vs6 etc.. to give the lower seeded teams a better chance in playoffs. I like it, there's still some sandbagging from the teams that can't make it top 5, but with that said it's still the funnest and most competitive league I've been in.

 

[Poolhall60561]

Playoffs like a single or double elimination tournament is not fair. Why play 20 weeks and then play 3 to see who gets the money. I do like a position round where 1 plays 2, 3 plays 4 and so on to allow an extra round and a chance for some close teams a second chance.

I also do not like handicaps but that another story.

 

[jasonlaus]

Isn't that kind of like hockey? Your team is in the playoffs if you have enough live, breathing players to field a team regardless of how you've done all season.

I guess the best that can be said is it gives players a chance at winning even if they didn't do well during the season.

Those players along with all other pro sports get paid all year - ticket sales, merchandise, advertising etc. League players put THEIR OWN MONEY into it.

Island Drive - how would one go about "doing something for the game" don't you really mean give the players free money???

 

[jasonlaus]

I would start with giving the winning player(Fran) their entire entry fees for the session back for winning the session. Probably some to 2nd and 3rd also depending on the # of players. Then battle it out in playoffs for the rest. Playoffs meaning 1st vs 4th, 2nd vs 3rd, then winner plays winner , loser plays loser in a bracket then 5th vs 8th, 6th vs 7th in another seperate bracket.
1st thru 4th play for 1st thru 4th money
5th thru 8th play for 5th thru 8th money

 

[us820]

Nothing handicapped is fair period.

 

[greyghost]

Are league playoffs fair?

Some years ago, I played in a 14.1 league, and after 12 weeks, I won my division. I received zero dollars and no trophy for winning my division.

I was then informed that there would be playoffs to follow. I was placed in a single-elimination chart along with 16 other players and told that this would determine how I finished in the league.

I lost a match somewhere early in the tournament, so my 12 weeks of hard work, preparation, showing up, playing matches and fighting for each win, all came down to one single elimination event with ultimately, nothing to show for it.

Who came up with the idea of league playoffs? Years ago, I used to be on a bowling team. We had position nights every 4th night and at the end, it all came down to the best record over the length of the league. There was no single elimination tournament to determine the winner.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that playoffs do is basically negate all you did the entire season.

well just about every other sport that has a champion makes one with soem kind of playoff......you cant be that unfamiliar with sports are you Fran? I'm not trying to poke fun by any means.....i just find your commet so peculair because i cant even think of a sport where it doesn't occur.

maybe you were just hot half the season, and squeaked in.....and i was cold for the start of season....finished strong....you finish weak, but say still a little ahead in the numbers without actually playing.....its justanother addition to the algorythm of "whos our champion this year" that goes for any sport....you have playoffs because it adds more balance and possibility for things to occur good and bad......more pressure too.

You have to beat someone to be a champion...lik specifically for that title. Maybe one of us had the yips.....an then gets over it ant tortures the other with it.

I just am also allittle shocked, because i dont know maybe its just connotation and reading off net, but its sounded really weak and complainey like "ugh i woulda won but they made me play a playoff".....

not a train of thoght or someting i'm very familiar seeing with and amoung people who coach in any competitive maner of sport.

 

[greyghost]

Of course I play because I love to play, but when you contribute towards a fund where there is a payoff for winning, then you should receive money for winning.

ok now i'm a little confused....

was that how originally they palnned on selecting season winner? without a playoff then they changed their mind?

if so then yea i misunderstood how you described the situation, and yea i would be pissed off long before i lost the match or whatever....

thats like your fixing to beat me and somehow i'm always just changing the rules and your chasing your tail.

 

[greyghost]

Nothing handicapped is fair period.

yea ill agree with that whole heartedly.....and i dont care about fair. lifes not fair

oh you dont like getting spanked......go practice and get better, but i refuse to be shackled just because i tried and worked harder.

i know i know it has its place......or so they say.....its like participation awards......no one deserves awards for showing up and being alive.

 

[FranCrimi]

well just about every other sport that has a champion makes one with soem kind of playoff......you cant be that unfamiliar with sports are you Fran? I'm not trying to poke fun by any means.....i just find your commet so peculair because i cant even think of a sport where it doesn't occur.

maybe you were just hot half the season, and squeaked in.....and i was cold for the start of season....finished strong....you finish weak, but say still a little ahead in the numbers without actually playing.....its justanother addition to the algorythm of "whos our champion this year" that goes for any sport....you have playoffs because it adds more balance and possibility for things to occur good and bad......more pressure too.

You have to beat someone to be a champion...lik specifically for that title. Maybe one of us had the yips.....an then gets over it ant tortures the other with it.

I just am also allittle shocked, because i dont know maybe its just connotation and reading off net, but its sounded really weak and complainey like "ugh i woulda won but they made me play a playoff".....

not a train of thoght or someting i'm very familiar seeing with and amoung people who coach in any competitive maner of sport.

Well, I was a touring pro with the WPBA for over 20 years so I'm pretty familiar with competition and I definitely know how to take my licks. But my concern in this instance was never mainly for myself. I used myself as an example, because when it happened to me, I was able to see first-hand how the system failed.

I think that sometimes we fall into a way of doing things and we keep it that way for too long. We need to keep thinking about ways to improve the system. We should never stop thinking about things like that.

Oh and by the way, the division I won was not a handicapped division. It was a tough group and I really had to perform to win it.

 

[Double-Dave]

yea ill agree with that whole heartedly.....and i dont care about fair. lifes not fair

oh you dont like getting spanked......go practice and get better, but i refuse to be shackled just because i tried and worked harder.

i know i know it has its place......or so they say.....its like participation awards......no one deserves awards for showing up and being alive.

I play a couple different sports that have handicaps.

1) Bowling, where the handicap you get is 80% of the difference between your average and 220.
This means better players still have an advantage but it has been reduced by 80%. I like this, it
gives me a chance to compete with much better players and really is the only way an in-house
league will work. There simply aren't enough players with a similar average to fill a league otherwise.

2) Golf, where the handicapping system is made so that every player has the exact same chance to
win. I don't like this. If I train and get better this should give me an edge.

Obviously there are no handicaps in the pro leagues of either sport ;-)

As to the league playoffs, yes they are fair, fun and keep the interest going until the league is finished.
But, I would suggest splitting the prize money 50/50 between the final standing in the league and the playoffs.

gr. Dave

 

[Tony_in_MD]

A pool league I joined since moving here does exactly this. Team performance through the season establishes the seed, then a best of 3 match playoff for the 6 teams involved.

Seems to be very fair and created so one bad night doesn't blow an entire season.

The only problem with that that is it adds another month and a half to the season just for playoffs. By April I am thinking about other things not pool.

I think there should be some advantage to be gained by being the "Regular Season Champion". Typically it would be gain home field advantage in the playoffs but playing in the same pool room, or bowling lanes, or dart boards, or.... really gains nothing for you except a seed designation or maybe in some cases a first round bye. In leagues lie The APA where they draw a wild card team finishing in first really earns you nothing. In the playoffs it's often not about the best team but about the hottest team and anyone can play well for one match.
It might make it a more drawn out process and somewhat longer but maybe in playoffs such as the one that Fran describes, something like a best 2 out of 3 series of maybe slightly abbreviated matches should be played. I dunno, just a thought

 

[jasonlaus]

A pool league I joined since moving here does exactly this. Team performance through the season establishes the seed, then a best of 3 match playoff for the 6 teams involved.

Seems to be very fair and created so one bad night doesn't blow an entire season.

The only problem with that that is it adds another month and a half to the season just for playoffs. By April I am thinking about other things not pool.

How can it be fair? Fran won the season, then one bad night cost her first place. How is that fair?
This system does EXACTLY what you say it shouldn't do.

I do understand that if a player runs away with it other players might quit, but somebody is always gonna be in last place, so........

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Perhaps I did not explain myself clearly.

The playoffs I was describing is a team event. Seeds are established based on performance throughout the season.

Top 3 teams in playoffs. It is not a play once and done, you play a best out of 3, so you could end up playing the same team three weeks in a row.

I am not saying any of this is good or bad, fair or unfair. Just cited an example of a playoff system that tries to eliminate a bad night.

How can it be fair? Fran won the season, then one bad night cost her first place. How is that fair?
This system does EXACTLY what you say it shouldn't do.

I do understand that if a player runs away with it other players might quit, but somebody is always gonna be in last place, so........

 

[BeiberLvr]

Let's say you have a 16 team league. 12 week sessions. What would be perfectly fair at the end of the 12 weeks would be

- Top 4 teams make single elimination playoffs
- Seeded draw...4 v 1 and 3 v 2
- Winner of each match plays the finals. NO SPLITTING.
- Payouts: 4th (15%) 3rd (20%) 2nd (25%) 1st (35%)
- 15% to 4th would guarantee dues back plus a little extra
- The remaining 5% could go to the MVP of the league

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Back to Fran's description. I have never heard of an individual league, having a one and done tourney that then crowns the league champ.

Typically the league champ is based on performance throughout the entire session, then if you want a tourney, you could crown a tourney champ.

If winning the tourney crowns a league champ, what is the point of playing all of those months prior?

This format for an individual league seems pointless to me.

 

[lorider]

I am probably comparing apples to oranges here ...but here goes .

Our pls off structure does not hurt teams that finish 1 st each session.

Guess I oughta mention what teams are vying for in pls offs..no cash...just a spot in tri cups.after each session. 1st place team gets a spot in The tourny. The rest of the teams that finished in the top half have a 1 game playoff and its seeded according to how you finished .

Now most divisions have an even number of teams and since 1st place team is not in playoffs that leaves an odd number of teams so we have a wild card from the rest of the division..

So our playoff format does not hurt the 1st place finisher such as in frans case one other thing I would lil to mention....if a team in The top half finishers are already qualified for ltc's the team that finished highest in the lower half moves up to a spot in the playoffs. If 2 teams are already qualified then the next highest bottom half finisher moves up to play offs also

One other thing ...if you happened to finish 2nd in the ltc finals you get an auto berth in next years ltcs provided you keep the majority of your team intact all year.

You can see our play off system rewards teams on how well they finish.

 

[PETROBOY]

I think that playoffs are fair. What's not fair is the setup of the league, you should get something for finishing first in regular season like being seeded in the playoffs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk