Are professionals supposed to call fouls on themselves?

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
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Social norms? Billiards is not NFL football (where holding or late hits unseen by any ref is rewarded). Yes, the opponent is ‘referee’. But if someone I’m playing commits an obvious foul, and then continues to shoot (hoping I missed it), I typically won’t call it on him, but instead will just not play him again. If the day comes where cheating at pool is an accepted ‘social norm’, I will quit the game.

Yes. Social norms. Like how societal views change on divorce, premarital sex, marijuana, or a number of other things.

Let me give you another. Early concessions. In the 90s, it was totally normal to concede the last ball during a money game. Often times people would make multiple ball concessions. This was supposedly to 'save time', but there was a sharking aspect as well. The move was to concede money ball after money ball, including maybe some half tough shots when you felt sure your opponent would make them. Then one rack they'd have a routine but not guaranteed money ball shot and you'd make them shoot it. It would be a distraction to the opponent, both on that shot (why is he making me shoot this, can I miss this ball?) and while they were playing shape (how good do I have to get for the concession?).

Then in tournament play the rule was introduced and normalized that any concessions would include a one rack penalty. Tournament Directors insisted that audiences deserved to watch the entire game. As this rule became the new standard it changed the way people played for money as well. These days when I play cash games it is very rare to see concessions. It still happens from old school players, but by and large people follow the norms set by the tournament pros.

If someone conceded a 9 ball to me I wouldn't think "OH MY GOD THIS GUY IS A CHEATER AND HAS NO MORAL CHARACTER THIS IS WHY POOL CAN'T GROW!!!". I'd just be like "Oh, he must have grown up playing in the 90s when this was normal".

That all said, I can see I'm in the minority on this issue. Not that I don't call foul on myself, because I do these days (I didn't during the 90s). But I get that most people see these issues as black and white.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting. Yes concessions were certainly common in the 90s (it always puzzled me to see guys raking 3 or 4 balls off a coin table during heavy 9 ball money games). But, while I wouldn’t necessarily force my opponent to shoot every ball (or refuse a concession), I NEVER concede. Your point re: sharking is something I hadn’t considered though. The guilt of not reciprocating never seemed to overpower my competitive spirit (that I was aware of, but who knows for sure?).
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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... The move was to concede moneyball after moneyball, including maybe some half tough shots when you felt sure your opponent would make them. Then one rack they'd have a routine but not guaranteed moneyball shot and you'd make them shoot it. ...
The proper way to do the last part is to get up out of your chair as if you're going to concede, have a lingering look at the shot, and then sit down, saying, "You better shoot it." I've seen that move in action.
 

DeeDeeCues

Well-known member
Yes. Social norms. Like how societal views change on divorce, premarital sex, marijuana, or a number of other things.

Let me give you another. Early concessions. In the 90s, it was totally normal to concede the last ball during a money game. Often times people would make multiple ball concessions. This was supposedly to 'save time', but there was a sharking aspect as well. The move was to concede money ball after money ball, including maybe some half tough shots when you felt sure your opponent would make them. Then one rack they'd have a routine but not guaranteed money ball shot and you'd make them shoot it. It would be a distraction to the opponent, both on that shot (why is he making me shoot this, can I miss this ball?) and while they were playing shape (how good do I have to get for the concession?).

Then in tournament play the rule was introduced and normalized that any concessions would include a one rack penalty. Tournament Directors insisted that audiences deserved to watch the entire game. As this rule became the new standard it changed the way people played for money as well. These days when I play cash games it is very rare to see concessions. It still happens from old school players, but by and large people follow the norms set by the tournament pros.

If someone conceded a 9 ball to me I wouldn't think "OH MY GOD THIS GUY IS A CHEATER AND HAS NO MORAL CHARACTER THIS IS WHY POOL CAN'T GROW!!!". I'd just be like "Oh, he must have grown up playing in the 90s when this was normal".

That all said, I can see I'm in the minority on this issue. Not that I don't call foul on myself, because I do these days (I didn't during the 90s). But I get that most people see these issues as black and white.

You couldn't even defend your position without using an example that you state is and always has been used for sharking.

Hiding fouls is indicative of poor character, and is cheating. Always has been.

Just because everybody did it and accepted it didn't make it right.
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
It depends on the situation I suppose. Though I still think about the one time I didn’t call a foul on myself lol. I don’t feel bad about it I don’t think, but it does crop up when I’m thinking about pool.

So there I was...

Yeah, so there I was. The year was twenty oh nineteen. Back before the covid wars when all was well in the world. I still had two good lungs and my sense of smell. Gone now these past 8 months (completely untrue, I never had that shiz...not yet anyway)

I was playing in a little league called APA. I was toughing it out. Only two tables, 4 teams. Not much skill on any of the other teams so I played the same two guys all the time. This was on a Monday night 🤢🤮. Back then we didn’t care much for Mondays.

This night I was playing a new opponent. I had known him a few years prior and I didn’t play pool at that time. He asked his captain “hey...snake..what’s the race?”

The intrepid snake pliskin responded “5-5”

From the corner of my eye I saw my man flinch and do a double take. He was expecting easy meat on this cold December night at the American legion.

I won the lag. I won’t bore you with specifics or nonsensical Metal gear solid references. Suffice it to say I was up on this guy in short order. I wanted to gtfo of this place pronto as it was almost 10 and the locals complained about my 6yo little lady I always traveled with. Gave me stank eye and snide remarks about what is and is not responsible parenting.

I’m on the hill, on my key ball. This guy has one game I believe, maybe two. I left myself 1/64” from being snookered.

I shoot my key B. I see the mf’n 7 ball roll a bit and resettle. My shot goes in. The other team captain was directly in my line of sight while shooting. Nothing registered on her face.

I stood still for a half second, pondering my crimes past and possible future scenarios, I walked around the table and made the 8.


Had my opponent a chance, or me plenty of free time...would things have gone down differently? Yes.

Maybe that one mistake was all he would’ve needed to mount a comeback but we shall never know. I guess I do feel a little bad about it.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Not one of you have even thought about the fact that with live streaming today, sometimes many other people are watching the table as well, so when you decide to pass on calling a foul on yourself just because neither your opponent or ref saw the foul, the viewers did! How does that represent YOU in their eyes? Even SVB called a foul on himself in the US Open 9B event, even though that foul put him out of the event, his opponent was surprised, and even told him to go ahead and keep shooting!!
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Interesting. Yes concessions were certainly common in the 90s (it always puzzled me to see guys raking 3 or 4 balls off a coin table during heavy 9 ball money games). But, while I wouldn’t necessarily force my opponent to shoot every ball (or refuse a concession), I NEVER concede. Your point re: sharking is something I hadn’t considered though. The guilt of not reciprocating never seemed to overpower my competitive spirit (that I was aware of, but who knows for sure?).
Thank you for the good conversation Dyno. I'll save any other thoughts for my next post below.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You couldn't even defend your position without using an example that you state is and always has been used for sharking.

Hiding fouls is indicative of poor character, and is cheating. Always has been.

I can think of many other examples. Take pattern racking as one. There was a time when pattern racking was considered a strategic part of the game. But many players and fans thought this took from the game, so many tournament directors instituted a rule saying "No pattern racking".

What's strange is the question remains "Is pattern racking allowed in tournaments that don't prohibit it?" This isn't so obvious. If the rules permit it you could say it is allowed. But the reason many TD's prohibited it is that many players felt it was a form of cheating. So if you pattern rack in an event that doesn't forbid it, some players will still look at that player as a cheater because they feel it shouldn't be permitted. Others would say if it's allowed in the rules it's not cheating. What this comes down to is the conflict between the rules and people's feelings about how they game ought to be played. I don't care about pattern racking either way, but while some would consider it cheating by today's standards, I don't believe it is inherantly a 'bad' thing.


Just because everybody did it and accepted it didn't make it right.

I sat on this statement most of the day. I'm out of my league here. I don't study philosophy or logic or debate. But this one puzzled me. I wasn't really sure. Other than "Everybody doing and accepting" something, what else determines right or wrong? It seems to me that for something to be 'wrong', there has to be someone to judge it as wrong. If it's not us as a society, who is it? I suppose from a religious standpoint you could point to divinity and God's rules, but I don't think he weighed in on not pointing out to your opponent you never got a rail on your kick shot.

I do think the idea that as a society we've agreed that dishonesty is bad. But what makes not calling a foul on yourself dishonest? I'll admit it is dishonest if the convention is 'we ought to call it'. But again, that's our convention. We are operating under a hypothetical society in which the opponent is expected to ref the shot and if they fail then they dogged it as much as if they missed a ball. In that world the player isn't being dishonest for not helping their opponent do their job, anymore than a player today is considered dishonest for not warning their opponent that they're about to shoot the wrong ball.

There are many grey areas in pool. Do you warn the player if they are about to shoot the wrong ball? What if they forget to mark their game on the wire? What's the difference? Is the first one a clear "No, that's their responsibility", but the second is "That would be cheating, they won that game". I guess it depends on who's responsibility it is. If it's the player's responsibility to move their coin then not saying anything is part of the game. If there is a convention that says we work together to keep the score correctly then it would be pretty snaky to not say anything. But this is all fluid depending on our conventions.

I also thought about poker. This is a game in which deception is built deeply into the game. Obviously it's not wrong to bluff or to disguise the strength of your hand. But the deception has limits. Some actions are taboo. They are called "Angle Shooting", and they are discouraged and borderline illegal moves to gain an advantage. For example, it's considered really bad technique to announce a hand you don't actually have. Suppose you got caught bluffing, instead of just mucking your cards you could excitedly announce "Flush!" If your opponent believes you and throws their cards away their hand is now dead. Even if you have 10 high you still win the pot. But this is considered horrible form. Some angle shoots are against the rules, but many are just against the social rules. People who do these things are shunned.

Poker is a great example of how some deceptive moves are part of the game, and others are not part of the game and hence not tolerated. My point is that if your opponent's duty to call foul on you is 'part of the game', then it isn't cheating not to do their job for them. If it's more like someone forgetting to move their coin, then I would agree it's not part of the game, we're all agreeing to work together to enforce fouls.

In the end I have no problem with the convention of calling fouls on ourselves. I do it and will continue to. I just think it's a more nuanced reasoning behind it all.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can think of many other examples. Take pattern racking as one. There was a time when pattern racking was considered a strategic part of the game. But many players and fans thought this took from the game, so many tournament directors instituted a rule saying "No pattern racking".

What's strange is the question remains "Is pattern racking allowed in tournaments that don't prohibit it?" This isn't so obvious. If the rules permit it you could say it is allowed. But the reason many TD's prohibited it is that many players felt it was a form of cheating. So if you pattern rack in an event that doesn't forbid it, some players will still look at that player as a cheater because they feel it shouldn't be permitted. Others would say if it's allowed in the rules it's not cheating. What this comes down to is the conflict between the rules and people's feelings about how they game ought to be played. I don't care about pattern racking either way, but while some would consider it cheating by today's standards, I don't believe it is inherantly a 'bad' thing.




I sat on this statement most of the day. I'm out of my league here. I don't study philosophy or logic or debate. But this one puzzled me. I wasn't really sure. Other than "Everybody doing and accepting" something, what else determines right or wrong? It seems to me that for something to be 'wrong', there has to be someone to judge it as wrong. If it's not us as a society, who is it? I suppose from a religious standpoint you could point to divinity and God's rules, but I don't think he weighed in on not pointing out to your opponent you never got a rail on your kick shot.

I do think the idea that as a society we've agreed that dishonesty is bad. But what makes not calling a foul on yourself dishonest? I'll admit it is dishonest if the convention is 'we ought to call it'. But again, that's our convention. We are operating under a hypothetical society in which the opponent is expected to ref the shot and if they fail then they dogged it as much as if they missed a ball. In that world the player isn't being dishonest for not helping their opponent do their job, anymore than a player today is considered dishonest for not warning their opponent that they're about to shoot the wrong ball.

There are many grey areas in pool. Do you warn the player if they are about to shoot the wrong ball? What if they forget to mark their game on the wire? What's the difference? Is the first one a clear "No, that's their responsibility", but the second is "That would be cheating, they won that game". I guess it depends on who's responsibility it is. If it's the player's responsibility to move their coin then not saying anything is part of the game. If there is a convention that says we work together to keep the score correctly then it would be pretty snaky to not say anything. But this is all fluid depending on our conventions.

I also thought about poker. This is a game in which deception is built deeply into the game. Obviously it's not wrong to bluff or to disguise the strength of your hand. But the deception has limits. Some actions are taboo. They are called "Angle Shooting", and they are discouraged and borderline illegal moves to gain an advantage. For example, it's considered really bad technique to announce a hand you don't actually have. Suppose you got caught bluffing, instead of just mucking your cards you could excitedly announce "Flush!" If your opponent believes you and throws their cards away their hand is now dead. Even if you have 10 high you still win the pot. But this is considered horrible form. Some angle shoots are against the rules, but many are just against the social rules. People who do these things are shunned.

Poker is a great example of how some deceptive moves are part of the game, and others are not part of the game and hence not tolerated. My point is that if your opponent's duty to call foul on you is 'part of the game', then it isn't cheating not to do their job for them. If it's more like someone forgetting to move their coin, then I would agree it's not part of the game, we're all agreeing to work together to enforce fouls.

In the end I have no problem with the convention of calling fouls on ourselves. I do it and will continue to. I just think it's a more nuanced reasoning behind it all.

I suppose these issues are rather fluid, depending upon circumstances (and who YOU are). A ‘hustler’ (or pro) who must win in order to feed his family & pay rent, likely wouldn’t warn his opponent that he was about to shoot the wrong ball. If he strictly sticks to the rules of the game, he couldn’t really be faulted.
‘I’, on the other hand, wouldn’t want to win that way. Amateur players are typically ‘sportsmen’ (difference between ‘pastime’ & ’profession’). But, in a ring game for instance, that decision isn’t mine to make.
I would think though, that even pros would find a reputation for honest/honor of some value. The rules/equipment may have evolved over time, but some traditions likely should not (IMHO). The rules of etiquette & polite society are largely ignored these days, but ‘I’ still hold the door open for ladies, and remove my hat when invited into someone‘s home. If THAT makes me a dinosaur, then so be it.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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... Take pattern racking as one....
Pattern racking at nine ball has been against the official rules for a long time. After 1995 or so the wording was that the balls other than the one and nine had to be "random". That wasn't clear enough so in 2008 it was changed to:

2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the​
apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The​
other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.

I was an area referee for one of the Norfolk Sheraton US Opens. It was rack your own with a template, nine on the spot. The players were told explicitly that pattern racking was forbidden. On one table one of the players was quite obviously pattern racking. I said nothing as we had been instructed to come to the table only when requested. It was OK because the other player was brushing the back ball back a little to make the the wing ball dead again. For what it's worth, the rack manipulator beat the pattern racker. Scummy, scummy, scummy.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Even SVB called a foul on himself in the US Open 9B event, even though that foul put him out of the event, his opponent was surprised, and even told him to go ahead and keep shooting!!
...and yet a brief YT search will find examples of the infallable SVB himself fouling badly and not surrendering the CB after the fact.

Maybe with that particular individual his morals are based on mood...?
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I do think the idea that as a society we've agreed that dishonesty is bad. But what makes not calling a foul on yourself dishonest?
That's really low hanging fruit. It's dishonest because you're actively concealing from your opponent an advantage they should have based on the rules of the game you agreed to play by.

It doesn't need to go any fruther than that.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's really low hanging fruit. It's dishonest because you're actively concealing from your opponent an advantage they should have based on the rules of the game you agreed to play by.

It doesn't need to go any fruther than that.
You took that entirely out of context. The question was regarding whether something is wrong if everyone accepted and played that way. Therefor the part about an advantage they “should” have doesn’t apply. I won’t restate my last two posts. They are there if you want to read them.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
...and yet a brief YT search will find examples of the infallable SVB himself fouling badly and not surrendering the CB after the fact.

Maybe with that particular individual his morals are based on mood...?
And maybe you didn't understand the call..?
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
You took that entirely out of context. The question was regarding whether something is wrong if everyone accepted and played that way. Therefor the part about an advantage they “should” have doesn’t apply. I won’t restate my last two posts. They are there if you want to read them.
Apologies if you believe I did so. I could repeat the quote, but my comment about what dishonesty is still remains. Spin it, while splitting any hair you like. The bottom line remains the same. You enter a contest with a set of rules. You 'knowingly' break one of those rules, and choose not to allow your opponent the benefit of your breaking of the rules. That is dishonest. Society, era, geographical area does not change the dishonest nature of the act.

If as a player you feel some rules shouldn't count, or the onus to monitor your play for potential fouls you agreed to play by should fall on your opponent's shoulders. Then simply declare it, and move on.

This is simply a measure of a person's character.
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
Apologies if you believe I did so. I could repeat the quote, but my comment about what dishonesty is still remains. Spin it, while splitting any hair you like. The bottom line remains the same. You enter a contest with a set of rules. You 'knowingly' break one of those rules, and choose not to allow your opponent the benefit of your breaking of the rules. That is dishonest. Society, era, geographical area does not change the dishonest nature of the act.

If as a player you feel some rules shouldn't count, or the onus to monitor your play for potential fouls you agreed to play by should fall on your opponent's shoulders. Then simply declare it, and move on.

This is simply a measure of a person's character.
There isn’t an inherent dishonesty there though. If there is no rule saying you must inform your opponent then you haven’t been dishonest by not speaking up.

If they ask and you lied that’s one thing but keeping quiet is different. My mama taught me that early. Don’t lie, but don’t tell on yourself either.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Apologies if you believe I did so. I could repeat the quote, but my comment about what dishonesty is still remains. Spin it, while splitting any hair you like. The bottom line remains the same. You enter a contest with a set of rules. You 'knowingly' break one of those rules, and choose not to allow your opponent the benefit of your breaking of the rules. That is dishonest. Society, era, geographical area does not change the dishonest nature of the act.

If as a player you feel some rules shouldn't count, or the onus to monitor your play for potential fouls you agreed to play by should fall on your opponent's shoulders. Then simply declare it, and move on.

This is simply a measure of a person's character.
It seems this is too big a leap to make for many but let's try. What if one of the rules was that the opponent had to play the role of a referee and it was their responsibility to call foul? Then what rule are we breaking by not doing their job?

This whole thread is fascinating to me. People seem to have such a deep down profound assertion that the game 'ought' to be played a certain way it's hard to talk about hypothetical alternatives.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
It seems this is too big a leap to make for many but let's try. What if one of the rules was that the opponent had to play the role of a referee and it was their responsibility to call foul? Then what rule are we breaking by not doing their job?

This whole thread is fascinating to me. People seem to have such a deep down profound assertion that the game 'ought' to be played a certain way it's hard to talk about hypothetical alternatives.
Fine, lets talk about reality, then. Reality is, a lot of people cheat, given a chance. I myself have cheated in a pool game by not calling my foul in the past, though luckily came to the realization that that was not the person I wanted to be and I never did it again. If ones words are to be given any weight at all, one has to live by them, otherwise one might as well shut up. Few of us are saints, but we all know right from wrong, well most of us do.

Cheating is bad for your self esteem, it's bad for the game and it's bad for the opponent. I don't see why we should celebrate the fact that it is widespread or even a part of "pool culture" if you could use such a word for what the people in pool are doing. I can't even watch soccer or cycling much anymore. The pretending to be hurt shtick in soccer and the rampant cheating in cycling just makes me sick. There has been cheating in snooker and probably even in 3 cushion, but at least it's not integrated into the games. Plenty of times people have called invisible fouls on themselves, in snooker, on tv, in significant matches. I just don't see that happening in pool, ever. You all can enjoy and revel in that fact, but it makes me sad. The problem with the people who glorify the cheating in pool really is where to draw the line. I bet you all have your limit, even the psychopaths, for what is ok to do in order to win a pool game. Since some of you people obviously don't care about the rule book, how do you establish what is ok and what isn't, and who are you to say someone is out of order for going beyond your limit? Can they use an air horn to shark you, steal balls in one pocket, spike your drink? If not, why not? Because you said so?
 
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