Are the long straight ins really the toughest shot?

[itsfroze]

Agreed. Just for "stroke accuracy" purposes, I like to put a ball near the center spot on the table, freeze the cue ball up against the either foot rail or the head rail, and hit that straight-in shot at various speeds -- from normal "optimum stroke" speed, to near as high a speed I can muster accurately, back down to lag speed (i.e. the object ball just barely makes it to the pocket). By far, for those that don't have a good stroke, the lag speed is toughest, because the slow speed exposes stroke anomalies to the light of day.

I think a lot of the reason that long straight-in shots are difficult for some people, are due to two problems:

1. Stroke (discussed above)
2. Aim.

In the "Aim" part, I think some people get "lost" somewhere in the "meat" of the ball. Meaning, that edges of the ball are easy to see and aim at, but when one is trying to find the exact center of something -- especially at a distance -- they lost track of what "center" is. You have "this edge," and "that edge" (of the ball, left and right edges respectively), and a bunch of "stuff" in-between, where centeredness is difficult to find. Part of it may be due to parallax error, part of it dominant eye issues, and part may just be poor head/eye alignment (or shall I say alignment that is just a weeeee bit off, that, at short distances has no effect, but at longer distances comes into play).

Straight-in shots are not "difficult" or "hard" (as the OP says); it's just that they require a little bit more attention than "first off-the-cuff" dismissal of the shot may say in one's mind.

-Sean

I agree that people might be getting lost trying to aim at the center of the cue ball. But for a long straight in shot all they have to do is aim at the edge of the ball just like on cut shots, JUST THE BOTTOM EDGE, where the object ball meets the cloth. That is definitely the center of the ball. Is that not the same reason some of the Filipino players aim at the base of the cue ball? Well one reason is to hit center and the other is that when using draw they would rather be bringing their cue tip up to be hitting below center than bringing it down ,where it's easier to miscue
That's also the reason why it's harder to hit center when the cue ball is frozen to the rail and you can only see the very top of the ball. Just my thoughts.

 

[vasilios]

If you can't sink straight in shots reliably... you can't sink ANY shot reliably.. and the reason is poor stroke...

The reason amature players tend to hate the long straight ... is because it exposes their stroke for what it is..

So True,So True..........


bill

 

[alstl]

No, long straight in shots are not the toughest shot.

 

[PoolQ4u]

Something I have learned and used to my advantage on STRAIGHT-IN shots, is lining up the OUTSIDE EDGES of the cue ball to the OUTSIDE EDGES of the object ball (two edges, outside and inside of the ball) instead of POINT OF CONTACT (one path, dead center to dead center) ..

I dont think I make sense. O[-------------]O instead of O----------------O

 

[sfleinen]

Something I have learned and used to my advantage on STRAIGHT-IN shots, is lining up the OUTSIDE EDGES of the cue ball to the OUTSIDE EDGES of the object ball (two edges, outside and inside of the ball) instead of POINT OF CONTACT (one path, dead center to dead center) ..

I dont think I make sense. O[-------------]O instead of O----------------O

Exactly -- and you *are* making sense. That is precisely the way you know you're lined-up dead center, when both edges of the object ball are equidistant between the edges of the cue ball. (Remember that the object ball is seen as being smaller than the cue ball.) However, this should be a RESULT of your aim, not the primary mover. Meaning, I believe one should not be focusing on the edges of the balls (unless one is using a pivot-based aiming system, of course). "Finding centeredness" also includes the cue tip on the cue ball as well -- making sure your cue tip is on the center axis of the cue ball. When one is focusing on "centeredness," the "centered" feeling of the cue tip on the cue ball, and the "centered" feeling of the object ball within the cue ball, all line up, and it just feels right. Focusing on the edges of the object ball and the cue ball tends to distract from achieving this "overall feeling of centeredness," and one may lose track of a perfect center-axis cue ball hit, probably imparting a bit of spin and throwing the shot off because the attention was drawn to the edges of the object and cue balls.

I agree that people might be getting lost trying to aim at the center of the cue ball. But for a long straight in shot all they have to do is aim at the edge of the ball just like on cut shots, JUST THE BOTTOM EDGE, where the object ball meets the cloth. That is definitely the center of the ball. Is that not the same reason some of the Filipino players aim at the base of the cue ball? Well one reason is to hit center and the other is that when using draw they would rather be bringing their cue tip up to be hitting below center than bringing it down ,where it's easier to miscue
That's also the reason why it's harder to hit center when the cue ball is frozen to the rail and you can only see the very top of the ball. Just my thoughts.

That is true -- and it extends to a complete, undisturbed center line from the cue tip, through the center of the cue ball, through the center of the object ball -- all one contiguous line.

However, the bolded part is why I personally don't practice this method, and instead practice finding "center" even when I can only see the top of the cue ball. As mentioned, I practice a drill whereby I freeze the cue ball to the short rail, placing the object ball in the middle of the table, and I shoot that long straight-in shot at various speeds into the pocket. I believe "finding center" is a practiced skill. Sure, there are shortcuts, but those shortcuts also have their own caveats. IMHO, anyway.

-Sean

 

[driven]

The reason this can help is that if you have a problem with unintended side spin, this will make sure you have a known side spin. That's especially important if you are playing a stop shot. A similar technique: if you are playing a straight-in that could be played as a stop shot or a with a little follow or draw, don't use a stop shot -- draw or follow a little. The follow or draw will significantly reduce the effect of small amounts of side spin.

good advice, I didn't know that. I usually practice this shot as a centerball stop shot because it is hard. I need to get a little lucky to hit it perfect. I made this tape a few days ago.

https://vimeo.com/39948210

steven

 

[rexus31]

I recently attended a clinic with John Schmidt at Crown City Billiards in Pasadena, CA. John said he usually hits two shots before playing a match: angled shot with side spin to get the feel of the table's speed and grip and the long straight in draw shot to ensure he is lined up and aiming properly. The long straight in draw shot is definitely one of the hardest. Your stroke has to be pretty dead on to nail it consistently. Try it. Place an object ball at one end of the table around the 2nd diamond, the cue ball at the other end of the table on the 2nd diamond (diagonal from the OB) and pocket the OB and draw the CB back to the end rail. See how many times you can do it out of ten.

 

[Jal]

Long straight in shots: In one pool book someone was telling me about (and he thought this was the best instructional book he had ever read), the author said to put a little english on the shot and throw it into the pocket.

The reason this can help is that if you have a problem with unintended side spin, this will make sure you have a known side spin. That's especially important if you are playing a stop shot.

With all respect, Bob, I believe that a certain but unknown amount of, say, left english, is just as bad as the same deviation from centerball (right or left) - for straight in shots. (The same issue comes up in discussions of outside english to negate throw).

A similar technique: if you are playing a straight-in that could be played as a stop shot or a with a little follow or draw, don't use a stop shot -- draw or follow a little. The follow or draw will significantly reduce the effect of small amounts of side spin.

Ron Shepard has recommended this several times and I challenged it once. The issue had to do with gearing and the fact that when the balls end up doing so during the collision (i.e., not sliding across each other during the entire period), the OB will get thrown horizontally just as much from the english, despite having a small amount of draw or follow spin. So the question is, how much draw or follow is needed? I think a good rule of thumb would be to use enough draw/follow such that you're right at the edge of the gearing zone. In other words, any additional spin from unintended english takes you out of that zone. The question then becomes, how far will the cueball travel?

Some time later I did the math and it turns out that Ron (and you) are more right than wrong (or that I was more wrong than right). After looking at various shot speeds and the amount of draw/follow needed to sit on the edge of that zone, the cueball doesn't travel anywhere near as far as I had expected. (Unfortunately, I need to redo the math and don't have the numbers at hand.)

But I guess my point is that using just a slight touch of draw or follow will not negate the throw effect from inadvertent english on straight or nearly straight shots. It's a quantitative issue.

Jim

 

[pt109]

If you can't sink straight in shots reliably... you can't sink ANY shot reliably.. and the reason is poor stroke...

The reason amature players tend to hate the long straight ... is because it exposes their stroke for what it is..

That's how I feel.
Straight-in shots aren't the hardest.....
...but they're the hardest to alibi.

Nobody can say they mis-judged the cut....
..and even a skid doesn't stop the ball from going in.

 

[Rod]

I recently attended a clinic with John Schmidt at Crown City Billiards in Pasadena, CA. John said he usually hits two shots before playing a match: angled shot with side spin to get the feel of the table's speed and grip and the long straight in draw shot to ensure he is lined up and aiming properly. The long straight in draw shot is definitely one of the hardest. Your stroke has to be pretty dead on to nail it consistently. Try it. Place an object ball at one end of the table around the 2nd diamond, the cue ball at the other end of the table on the 2nd diamond (diagonal from the OB) and pocket the OB and draw the CB back to the end rail. See how many times you can do it out of ten.

That's what I do except the c/b is a little below the foot spot. I usually draw it to the foot spot, a controlled distance but sometimes to the end rail. 10 times diagonal, left and right side. Last time I made 19 of 20. I shoot the angled draw & follow as well. I pocket more straight in draws than the angled shots. To me angled shots are more difficult.

Using any side spin on a straight in as mentioned earlier, I don't see the point.

Rod

 

[Bob Jewett]

With all respect, Bob, I believe that a certain but unknown amount of, say, left english, is just as bad as the same deviation from centerball (right or left) - for straight in shots. (The same issue comes up in discussions of outside english to negate throw)....

What if you have greater than gearing side spin on a stop shot?

 

[12310bch]

Now you have added an extra variable.

So, I want to take two scenarios.

1. Long straight shot, cueball frozen to rail.

2. Long 45 degree cut, cueball frozen to rail.


Which shot do you think you will have a better success rate? Can you not put unwanted spin on the straight in shot and a cut shot?

I'll stand up too quick, drop my elbow, and miscue on both those shots.
Gimme an easier scenario.

 

[rexus31]

That's what I do except the c/b is a little below the foot spot. I usually draw it to the foot spot, a controlled distance but sometimes to the end rail. 10 times diagonal, left and right side. Last time I made 19 of 20. I shoot the angled draw & follow as well. I pocket more straight in draws than the angled shots. To me angled shots are more difficult.

Using any side spin on a straight in as mentioned earlier, I don't see the point.

Rod

19 out of 20 is damn good!

 

[OneIron]

19 out of 20 is damn good!

The most difficult part of a long straight in shot is when you have to stop the cue ball dead. It's very difficult to get the right amount of speed combined with the right amount of bottom (and no side) to stop it dead. And it's a very common shot.

 

[rexus31]

The most difficult part of a long straight in shot is when you have to stop the cue ball dead. It's very difficult to get the right amount of speed combined with the right amount of bottom (and no side) to stop it dead. And it's a very common shot.

I think drawing it back is more difficult because you have to be very precise and put a good stroke on it.

 

[mohrt]

A lot of good information here. I'd like to add: treat the straight-in like any other difficult shot: practice it. Try different straight-in shots from all over the table. Use a stripe ball as the cue ball, watch what kind of spin (intentional or not) you are applying to the shot. Also practice nearly straight-ins, which is going to happen far more often than perfectly straight-ins. 1 degree can make a big difference.

 

[lee brett]

NO - not at all if you know how to play them, i teach this on my DVD

 

[Jal]

What if you have greater than gearing side spin on a stop shot?

In that case, I retract my challenge forthwith. :embarrassed2:

...but if there's a lot of cloth between the balls, wouldn't the cure then be worse than the disease?

Jim

 

[bud02]

There are different kinds of long shots that give different problems. Where the OB is far away, aim seems less important to judge finely and a good stroke seems crucial. On the other hand, when the OB is 6 inches from the CB and the pocket is 8 feet away, then aiming (to strike the OB in exactly the right spot) seems to be the challenge. This goes for both cuts and straight shots.

A 45+ degree cut where the OB travels 7-8 feet is a tough but fun shot for me.

This is just simple physics, the farther the object ball needs to travel the smaller the contact point to pocket the ball is. Miss that point of contact by 1/16 of an inch and that error grows as distance traveled increases. The 1/16 may grow to 2 1/2 inches after it travels 8 feet "you do the math :smile:". As the object ball is placed closer to the pocket the point of contact needed to pocket the ball increases, it may be as big as a dime.

 

[OneIron]

I think drawing it back is more difficult because you have to be very precise and put a good stroke on it.

I would agree it's difficult to properly execute a long draw. But the situation I referred to is where proper position requires the cue ball to stop perfectly dead. Any movement after the hit results in no direct shot. It's a shot I practice a lot in drills.

Setup the object ball about a foot from the corner pocket. Mark a spot on the table one ball width behind the object ball representing where you want the cue ball to sit after the shot. Now try stopping the cue ball on the marked spot from varying distances. It's an excellent drill on cue ball control.

BTW, good thread...