Are we devaluing the iTrader system?

[mmedford]

After the 5 page thread in the wfs section, I think this is a conversation that this forum; users and moderators, need to have.

The way I read the iTrader sticky is that it is a system similar to the ebay feedback system meant to give a review after a completed transaction.

If a transaction doesn't occur, is that grounds for feedback to be given?

Personally I think not, but something has to change with the "I'll take it" but never follow through with payment problem. Kickin' chicken has suggested about putting a time limit on potential deals.

That's all well and dandy, but I think seller and buyer should be left to their own to form an agreement.

Discuss
-Mark

 

[batalarms]

I agree with Mr. Medford.If we use the iTrader system for every deal that doesn't happen we lessen the veracity of the system.I have already stated in the other thread that the iTrader is for,Completed Deals ONLY.The section should be "locked" by the admin just like eBay and only made available after a completed purchase.It is definitely not cool and not a good practice to say,"I'll take it" and not follow thorough.Unfortunately,I have had to pass on a deal a couple of times,but I always tried to keep the seller informed,and I apologize,if it is needed.Life happens.Let's not abuse the iTrader.
Marc

 

[DallasHopps]

Working within the confines of the iTrader system, I think at least neutral should be left for someone who agrees to a deal (offer made and accepted, and promise of payment made) with no follow-through and no communication. Communication makes all the difference in the world... I might be disappointed if you tell me you can't buy my trinket because your dog needs expensive therapy, but I'll at least know that the deal isn't pending. In this case, no feedback would be required. The potential buyer isn't guilty of not paying, since the communication made it clear that the deal was no longer moving forward.
The issue with an EBay comparison is that they have "unpaid buyer" strikes to warn against selling to people who habitually bid with no intention of following through.

As with most things, I doubt that additional rules and guidance are truly the best answer. Timely communication is the answer to just about every forum selling issue I've ever seen.

 

[batalarms]

^^^^^^^^ I agree with the previous post.communication is the key.Don't leave the seller hanging.Let them know that you can't complete the deal.There are times that life demands that money is more needed somewhere else.
Marc.

 

[CMD]

Not to go too far off base, but the true issue with iTrader is the false sense of security it gives people. To be more frank, how can someone with 10 iTraders be trusted IF all of the deals are under $50? People need to use more caution and use the systems in place to take care of themselves. Of course there are scam artists but only to the willing or uneducated.



Trust is earned and not just an iTrader number.



To get back on track - A deal occurs ONLY once properties have exchanged. Not until then.

 

[classiccues]

I think you should have to post the receipt from the dogs therapist....

Regardless the reason... don't pull cord if you don't want the chute to open. There should be SOME warning device for these types.. neutral is a good start.

JV

Working within the confines of the iTrader system, I think at least neutral should be left for someone who agrees to a deal (offer made and accepted, and promise of payment made) with no follow-through and no communication. Communication makes all the difference in the world... I might be disappointed if you tell me you can't buy my trinket because your dog needs expensive therapy, but I'll at least know that the deal isn't pending. In this case, no feedback would be required. The potential buyer isn't guilty of not paying, since the communication made it clear that the deal was no longer moving forward.
The issue with an EBay comparison is that they have "unpaid buyer" strikes to warn against selling to people who habitually bid with no intention of following through.

As with most things, I doubt that additional rules and guidance are truly the best answer. Timely communication is the answer to just about every forum selling issue I've ever seen.

 

[cuesblues]

Working within the confines of the iTrader system, I think at least neutral should be left for someone who agrees to a deal (offer made and accepted, and promise of payment made) with no follow-through and no communication. Communication makes all the difference in the world... I might be disappointed if you tell me you can't buy my trinket because your dog needs expensive therapy, but I'll at least know that the deal isn't pending. In this case, no feedback would be required. The potential buyer isn't guilty of not paying, since the communication made it clear that the deal was no longer moving forward.
The issue with an EBay comparison is that they have "unpaid buyer" strikes to warn against selling to people who habitually bid with no intention of following through.

As with most things, I doubt that additional rules and guidance are truly the best answer. Timely communication is the answer to just about every forum selling issue I've ever seen.

The communication is definitely easier on Ebay, but the sellers pay for it, which is a good reason why the guys that just come to AZ to sell stuff should take it to Ebay.
The problem with the other thread is the confusion between being a man of your word vs. leaving a negative Itrader when there is no transaction.
I've had some real good ones where a guy says he will take the cue and disappears, but it doesn't bother me because I'm not here primarily to make a buck.
Ironically the seller cannot leave negative feedback on Ebay, and I wonder why Ebay changed that policy.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I guess I am the dissenting voice here but I believe negative iTrader should be left for buyers that back out of a deal. You shouldn't be committing to an item if you are not absolutely positive you want it, or if you don't have the money. And if you do in fact have the money, it should be sent within minutes of your commitment to buy the item if it is a paypal payment, and by the next day if it is a payment you are mailing (or by Monday if it happens to be late Saturday or Sunday), so there is very little time for an emergency to come up anyway where the money might be needed elsewhere.

97% of the time the "something unexpected or emergency came up" is a total BS excuse because they would rather lie to you than tell you the truth which is that they are just a flaky person and their real reason is they weren't really sure they wanted it to begin with and just wanted to make sure somebody else didn't snag it while they were trying to decide if they really wanted it or not. Or they just changed their mind, buyers remorse kind of thing. Or they found another item they liked better for some reason.

Meanwhile in that lost time the seller could have had it sold to someone else that actually had some integrity and would have followed through. Now it takes longer for the seller to get his item sold and get money in his pocket, and he may even end up taking a loss or selling for less because the delay put him in a time crunch and now he has to sell it cheaper to get it sold in a crunch.

Short of the 3% that are legitimate emergencies that came up within the 1 day before the buyer could get the payment sent off, the other 97% are just flaky POS type people whose word is meaningless and who are absolutely no better in any way than a seller that intentionally misrepresents an item. Deadbeat buyers should get negative iTrader.

 

[kvinbrwr]

Ironically the seller cannot leave negative feedback on Ebay, and I wonder why Ebay changed that policy.

eBay was concerned about their growth and determined (rightly so) that their growth was reliant on attracting new people to the site as buyers and then having their experiences be positive so they are retained as members. Doing exit interviews from people that joined and left, they found that many caught negative feedback from impatient sellers (with a newbie) and that made them not want to come back.

Very interesting relative to this discussion, really.

 

[maha]

i think most of the problems come from the seller not demanding up front what and how he gets the money. if the buyer doesnt comply within the time frame the seller says the deal is open to other buyers.
if a deposit is put up, it is good until the time frame is gone and then it is forfeited unless the seller wants to extend and then he has no reason to complain.

its the old thing the first person to come up with the cash gets the goods, unless the seller wants to hold it for someone, then he has nothing to complain about.

 

[cuesblues]

eBay was concerned about their growth and determined (rightly so) that their growth was reliant on attracting new people to the site as buyers and then having their experiences be positive so they are retained as members. Doing exit interviews from people that joined and left, they found that many caught negative feedback from impatient sellers (with a newbie) and that made them not want to come back.

Very interesting relative to this discussion, really.

Same thing could happen here with the forum bully types.
It's not all black & white like the old school bullies want people to believe.
People change their minds for many different reasons, and do we really want to threaten negative Itraders because a guy changed his mind or made a mistake.
I would not want to deal with someone who tries to get pounds of flesh when somebody screws up, it would be like dealing with a cop.
Personally I'm going to win no matter what these so-called salesman decide to do, it doesn't affect me at all.
I 've heard from many AZer's over the years that were bullied as newbies, I know how it goes down, I've had it tried on me, and I'm concerned...that's all.

 

[Poolplaya9]

People change their minds for many different reasons, and do we really want to threaten negative Itraders because a guy changed his mind or made a mistake.

Don't say "I'll take it" until you are POSITIVE you want it. Simple really. And in those exceptionally rare circumstances where an emergency comes up in the ten minutes before you could get the payment off, accept your lumps and deal with the negative iTrader you will get. People will be able to look at your entire iTrader history and be able to tell someone who had a rare emergency or two come up and had to back out of deals verses the flaky POS with zero integrity who is playing games.

The only people who are worried about negative iTrader for backing out of deals are the POS zero integrity people who make a habit out of doing it.

 

[classiccues]

Expecting someone to keep their word is bullying? WOW.. I think I have read it all now.

If someone changes their mind in a few hours and lets you know I think that is one thing. When someone strings you along for a few days, or weeks THEN disappears, then I think that is an entirely different scenario.

JV

Same thing could happen here with the forum bully types.
It's not all black & white like the old school bullies want people to believe.
People change their minds for many different reasons, and do we really want to threaten negative Itraders because a guy changed his mind or made a mistake.
I would not want to deal with someone who tries to get pounds of flesh when somebody screws up, it would be like dealing with a cop.
Personally I'm going to win no matter what these so-called salesman decide to do, it doesn't affect me at all.
I 've heard from many AZer's over the years that were bullied as newbies, I know how it goes down, I've had it tried on me, and I'm concerned...that's all.

 

[cuesblues]

Expecting someone to keep their word is bullying? WOW.. I think I have read it all now.

If someone changes their mind in a few hours and lets you know I think that is one thing. When someone strings you along for a few days, or weeks THEN disappears, then I think that is an entirely different scenario.

JV

As a sales manager I would advise people to not get strung along and do a better job of qualifying their buyer's

You guys go ahead and denigrate the ITrader system over this, and I will continue to sell cues.
I can't imagine the chaos a cue return would create.

 

[TATE]

Giving negative I-trader is a hand slap for someone who is known for being otherwise reputable.

Starting a negative "beware of" thread is over the top for someone who backs out of a deal.

I don't know who looks at this stuff anyway. I bought a cue the other day on AZ and when the seller sent his email I was surprised to find out the guy has been an online buddy for years. He shipped me an expensive cue one time sight unseen so I could fit a spare Palmer shaft to it. I didn't even know he was on AZ!

 

[Type79]

Internet Grading Systems

iTrader - eBay Feedback - Yelp - Trip Advisor - etc.

I am not in favor of a negative iTrader for a deal in which no money is lost because there was no missed opportunity.

All internet grading systems have their drawbacks and deficiencies when it comes to being accurate and fair to those involved. Bad ratings can be left in the heat of the moment for miniscule reasons. Positive ratings and reviews by friends, family or the seller themselves.

My rule has always been, when in doubt, to evaluate the other party through communication. A simple dialog with a seller or potential buyer gives a very good indication who you are dealing with. It will give you a sense of how responsible they are through a timely response (or no response at all), their intelligence through how they write or speak, and their demeanor and attitude by how they answer questions.

I often sell personal unwanted items on eBay and their feedback system is broken. Buyers now can only have a 100% feedback rating, so the only way to evaluate the integrity of a bidder or buyer is through a review of the feedback they leave for others.

I recently saw something on eBay that shocked even me: A buyer who, with only a few exceptions, leaves only negative feedback. Nice. Thank you for winning my auction. eBay should address this type of situation. This buyer has over 20,000 positive feedbacks but endless pages of negative feedback left for others. Who is right here.

iTrader
One aspect of trading on AZ in comparison to an eBay auction is that I would argue there is not the same degree of the missed opportunity on AZ for an uncompleted deal. This is because trading here is for a fixed or agreed price and it is not an auction. Therefore, it is not a situation where the second highest bidder is left to lose interest after the end of the auction.

I have only had one disappointing experience on AZ. I did not lose money, but I paid for a cue, a rare cue, and had my funds returned because the seller sold it after-the-fact to another buyer for a higher price a week later. I wasn't happy but did not leave a negative because inherently the seller is alright, just wrong in how he handled that matter and on the flip side, I didn't want to be left a negative in an unregulated system.

In another trade, in which I acquired one of my most valued Palmers, the seller had a tremendous iTrader rating. He was totally professional in both his communication, speed of shipping and packing. Then several months later he was banned from AZ. Go figure.

So my long-winded point is that the missed-opportunity doesn't apply here on AZ. If a seller wants a deal wrapped-up in 24-48-72 hours it should be so stated. If the seller agrees to wait 2-3 weeks and then the buyer backs-out, I'm not saying that is right and proper but let's face it, there were two on that dance floor.

Jay

 

[classiccues]

Exactly, and this goes a long way in qualifying a buyer. Being able to see transaction history is exactly how to do so. If a buyer says I'll take it, and I can see he doesn't follow through I can then tell him you have 4 hours to pay me based on your history of non-commitments.

I see it as an improvement.. anything that cuts down on b.s. is an improvement, IMHO.

JV

As a sales manager I would advise people to not get strung along and do a better job of qualifying their buyer's

You guys go ahead and denigrate the ITrader system over this, and I will continue to sell cues.
I can't imagine the chaos a cue return would create.

 

[cuesblues]

iTrader - eBay Feedback - Yelp - Trip Advisor - etc.

I am not in favor of a negative iTrader for a deal in which no money is lost because their was no missed opportunity.

All internet grading systems have their drawbacks and deficiencies when it comes to being accurate and fair to those involved. Bad ratings can be left in the heat of the moment for miniscule reasons. Positive ratings and reviews by friends, family or the seller themselves.

My rule has always been, when in doubt, to evaluate the other party through communication. A simple dialog with a seller or potential buyer gives a very good indication who you are dealing with. It will give you a sense of how responsible they are through a timely response (or no response at all), their intelligence through how they write or speak, and their demeanor and attitude by how they answer questions.

I often sell personal unwanted items on eBay and their feedback system is broken. Buyers now can only have a 100% feedback rating, so the only way to evaluate the integrity of a bidder or buyer is through a review of the feedback they leave for others.

I recently saw something on eBay that shocked even me: A buyer who, with only a few exceptions, leaves only negative feedback. Nice. Thank you for winning my auction. eBay should address this type of situation. This buyer has over 20,000 positive feedbacks but endless pages of negative feedback left for others. Who is right here.

iTrader
One aspect of trading on AZ in comparison to an eBay auction is that I would argue there is not the same degree of the missed opportunity on AZ for an uncompleted deal. This is because trading here is for a fixed or agreed price and it is not an auction. Therefore, it is not a situation where the second highest bidder is left to lose interest after the end of the auction.

I have only had one disappointing experience on AZ. I did not lose money, but I paid for a cue, a rare cue, and had my funds returned because the seller sold it after-the-fact to another buyer for a higher price a week later. I wasn't happy but did not leave a negative because inherently the seller is alright, just wrong in how he handled that matter and on the flip side, I didn't want to be left a negative in an unregulated system.

In another trade, in which I acquired one of my most valued Palmers, the seller had a tremendous iTrader rating. He was totally professional in both his communication, speed of shipping and packing. Then several months later he was banned from AZ. Go figure.

So my long-winded point is that the missed-opportunity doesn't apply here on AZ. If a seller wants a deal wrapped-up in 24-48-72 hours it should be so stated. If the seller agrees to wait 2-3 weeks and then the buyer backs-out, I'm not saying that is right and proper but let's face it, there were two on that dance floor.

Jay

You Palmer collectors are all alike><:smile:
Are you ever going to post pics of that old Wico thing I sold you?

The confusion over being a man of your word vs. the Itrader system astounds me.
We are all men and we all try to keep our word.
People screw up, get high, get excited about something, and later realize they have to pay rent, or they may realize that the cue was way overpriced.
I wish I would of backed out of my first trade on AZ, the guy was a known certified nutjob, and a known hated AZ bully, I didn't know it.
What would I of done if I found out about him before I sent my cue out?
Then wives get involved, like the time I sold a cue to a pro player during a tournament, his wife went nutz, so I gave him his money back.
I may look him up and leave negative feedback for having a wife that needs to pay bills.
Backing out gracefully takes a little savvy, some people just disappear, oh well, move on.
I am not going the bully someone in that situation, it doesn't happen very often, and I am not going to force or shame a guy into completing the deal if he doesn't want the cue.
No transaction therefore no Itrader, in fact I have never ever considered using the Itrader system to punish a guy for not keeping his word.
But then again, my first job in '67 at 15 was in a notorious pool hall, so I was exposed to the real world when I was young.

 

[cuesblues]

Exactly, and this goes a long way in qualifying a buyer. Being able to see transaction history is exactly how to do so. If a buyer says I'll take it, and I can see he doesn't follow through I can then tell him you have 4 hours to pay me based on your history of non-commitments.

I see it as an improvement.. anything that cuts down on b.s. is an improvement, IMHO.

JV

What history, there was no transaction

 

[ridewiththewind]

Not to go too far off base, but the true issue with iTrader is the false sense of security it gives people. To be more frank, how can someone with 10 iTraders be trusted IF all of the deals are under $50? People need to use more caution and use the systems in place to take care of themselves. Of course there are scam artists but only to the willing or uneducated.



Trust is earned and not just an iTrader number.



To get back on track - A deal occurs ONLY once properties have exchanged. Not until then.

Spot on. Scammers use iTrader to sucker in the big fish. They do some smaller decent transactions, and then throw in the big hook. If it didn't work, they wouldn't still be scamming people...over and over and over again.

A little research goes a long way. Do a search on the seller/buyer...see if there have been issues in the past or not. Ask more established members...often they will know a few things not shared publicly, or can direct you to someone who can. Stick with members with years of solid reputations. Sure, it's a bit more 'work'...but if it's too easy for you, it's too easy for 'them'.