Are you in favor of mixed tournaments/matches?

[Tommy Joe]

Are you a B mens player? Why do you feel the women need to matchup with shortstops for money in old smoky pool halls in order to prove themselves? Prove themselves to who and for what? They prefer things the way they are now. They have their tours and can compete with the best mens pros in many open events. Yes they would like more fully open events to compete against the men but money is tight everywhere.

I don't disagree with you. On some things I agree entirely. I understand why the women's tour exists and am not opposed to it's existence. I'm only pointing out that when a top female players goes out and wins against a top male player, that is something male players you've never heard of can do now and then too. So what? My main point was and is that the top female players would have trouble making money in a genderless tour. The top 5 or 6 female players play alone - almost - and there is a great drop off in talent from that group to the next level - a level on which they all feed. I don't blame them for having their own league, and yes I see it as a good training ground for future top female players, of which it seems there could be many. I'm only saying that if they had to play exclusively on a genderless tour they'd have a lot of trouble making enough money to get by on tournament money alone.

A similar scenario might be the seniors tour in golf. Some might say that without it many of the older players wouldn't be able to make money doing what they've done all their lives. So they thrive in the seniors tour and take occasional shots on the regular tour, as was done recently by Tom Watson. But Tom Watson was a great player who who a bunch of tournaments against the top players of his time. I could see the other day how good he really was. In some ways he's better. So he plays on two different levels - the senior and regular tours - just like the women. But he made his name playing the best players in the world, not the best women or the best men - the best players period.

I haven't played in years and was never in love with the dedication required to be really good. I'm lazy. But I suppose I was a decent B player and I know there are many such players all over the world who would love to play some of the top female players for money, especially the ones at the absolute top. So I don't know the answer and I don't care. And to top it off (I've said this before in other threads), there are some things about the women's game I enjoy more. I like the softer break. I like the safety play of the top female players. But you're right, they need their own league. Which is what I've been saying all along. I guess we agree.

Tommy Joe

 

[mantis99]

I think we have room for both. I like it as is: a men's tour, a women's tour, and some mixed tournaments.

Agreed. I like the idea of the two playing each other, but I do think it would be a problem to allow women in on the money at men's tournaments, but not the other way around. Also, to completely dissolve the gender barrier would knock a lot of women out of the pro ranks all together which would not be good for the game. I think they should each have a successful tour, with majors and world championships, yet also have at least 4-5 open events each year so there can be no argument over who is the best.

 

[blah blah]

it isn't fair it isn't fair it's just not fair

This is true, women do limit themselves, in the same way most men limit themselves too. The only true champions out there are the ones who let it all go knowing they might fail and if they do fail they try again, and again, and again, and hope one day to achieve what they haven't. In a previous post I stated that women should be banned from tournaments that men are in. Let me elaborate on that. As long as the WPBA restricts men from playing in their events then women shouldn't be allowed to play with men in events. There is no men's tour that doesn't allow women to play so the WPBA shouldn't be restrictive to allow men to play. The point I think Tom was trying to make is that it isn't fair that women can enter an OPEN event and knock men out of the money, but we aren't allowed to go and knock you out of your money tournaments. It would be different if we had a tour that was strictly Men. Like the MPBA (for example) if we made the MPBA I think women would get crazy and start yelling out descrimination. I mean hell how easy do women have it?? Most tour stops don't even charge no pro women for entry and pay the highest placing woman some money. Still yet I see very few women (if any) at most of the stops I hit, but I can stop by a WPBA qualifier and see women all over. Why is that?

Fair enough. I'm just happy women are allowed in poolrooms, now. Oh yeah- and that we're allowed to vote- that was a good one, too. And own land. Nice. And go to college with men. I reallllly do like men. That's probably one of my problems. You know, when I bought my new car two years ago, my Aunt reminisced about how when she was young she couldn't buy her car without her husband or father being there to sign with her, so I'm glad I could buy my car, too. So college- I majored in Political Science, but my mother thought I should go for something practical- like Home Economics. I'm dead serious. Oh, and I can say no to sex now, if I don't want to- now, that's a really good one. And... wait I got off topic. Feminine fluffy brains.

We were talking about... fairness?

Enough poking you with a pointy stick. I do think you make good points about women not showing up to Open events but that's another problem we're working on. (Why complain on the one hand that women CAN play in Opens, and on the other that they DON'T? It sounds like you just want the women's events to be open to men.) So we're shy, we're learning and yes, we can often get beat down mercilessly in an Open tournament, AND we're not exactly welcome.

Women are just not starting on the same playing field that you are. In fact, it's a different field altogether even now when we walk into an Open tournament. You ever walk into the room and everyone stares from leers to sneers? Heard snickers just because you're there? Ever miss a ball warming up and have multiple men with bad breath try to get close and tell you exactly what's wrong with your stroke and stance? Ever lose $10 gambling and the guy wants a hug, too? Yeah, some girls can work it, but even more have serious trouble keeping up confidence in that atmosphere.

Start a men's only tour. Have some "No Women Allowed" tournaments. Fine. But keep the Opens open. We are getting better and we do want to "enter an OPEN event and knock men out of the money."

Damn. I really am trying to put my pointy stick away.

 

[Tbeaux]

I don't disagree with you. On some things I agree entirely. I understand why the women's tour exists and am not opposed to it's existence. I'm only pointing out that when a top female players goes out and wins against a top male player, that is something male players you've never heard of can do now and then too. So what? My main point was and is that the top female players would have trouble making money in a genderless tour. The top 5 or 6 female players play alone - almost - and there is a great drop off in talent from that group to the next level - a level on which they all feed. I don't blame them for having their own league, and yes I see it as a good training ground for future top female players, of which it seems there could be many. I'm only saying that if they had to play exclusively on a genderless tour they'd have a lot of trouble making enough money to get by on tournament money alone.

You're right few would survive financially on a genderless tour. Few B mens players would either which is why they don't.
The top female players have trouble earning a living on their own tour. There has and pretty likely will always be much more money available to the men even without a large successful mens tour. The women have the most potential for long term success with their tour(s) but they NEED the additional money available to them through the opens just to keep competing. Monica Webb who for the past number of years sat in 3rd to 6th place on the WPBA earned 17 - 38k with WPBA and "other tournament" winnings. When they add up winnings at years end there are usually 6 or so women listed with about 90+ men from around the world and I know for a fact those 6 women can take down at least half or more of the men listed any day of the week. But don't assume that only six or so women can play top notch pool. There are more women capable of competing on a genderless tour than many think. It's simply not in their best interest given mens attitudes. Just in this thread it's been indicated by men that women in opens are somehow taking money away from more deserving men and that the women should be willing to gamble away any money they do make. There is also a lot of pent up anger among the ladies over this attitude. If you doubt it just read blah blahs post.:frown:

 

[instroke75]

any day of the week?

You're right few would survive financially on a genderless tour. Few B mens players would either which is why they don't.
The top female players have trouble earning a living on their own tour. There has and pretty likely will always be much more money available to the men even without a large successful mens tour. The women have the most potential for long term success with their tour(s) but they NEED the additional money available to them through the opens just to keep competing. Monica Webb who for the past number of years sat in 3rd to 6th place on the WPBA earned 17 - 38k with WPBA and "other tournament" winnings. When they add up winnings at years end there are usually 6 or so women listed with about 90+ men from around the world and I know for a fact those 6 women can take down at least half or more of the men listed any day of the week. But don't assume that only six or so women can play top notch pool. There are more women capable of competing on a genderless tour than many think. It's simply not in their best interest given mens attitudes. Just in this thread it's been indicated by men that women in opens are somehow taking money away from more deserving men and that the women should be willing to gamble away any money they do make. There is also a lot of pent up anger among the ladies over this attitude. If you doubt it just read blah blahs post.:frown:

are you saying that the 5 or 6 woman can win a match against half the field of men or could beat them in a long term session? cause if you think that the top women can beat the top men in a long term session, then you are in neverland my friend! their are shortstops everywhere who would play any of these woman everyday! i have watched Ga Young Kim get busted by a shortstop in Orlando, and I am sure she would be on that list! so what if they can win a match against a top pro now and then, if they didn't have their soft woman's tour to beat up on, they wouldn't be able to fund their jumps into the deepend of the pool!

I mean if you send me some babyseals to club regularly to pump up my bankroll, then i would take a shot against some better players too now and then! but even though i am barely an A or B player, i can only play in open events, and some open amateur events. and even the amateur events let the woman in, who are on the WPBA, until they win or move on cause they ain't scaring anyone off!

Jeremy

 

[Tbeaux]

are you saying that the 5 or 6 woman can win a match against half the field of men or could beat them in a long term session? cause if you think that the top women can beat the top men in a long term session, then you are in neverland my friend! their are shortstops everywhere who would play any of these woman everyday! i have watched Ga Young Kim get busted by a shortstop in Orlando, and I am sure she would be on that list! so what if they can win a match against a top pro now and then, if they didn't have their soft woman's tour to beat up on, they wouldn't be able to fund their jumps into the deepend of the pool!

I mean if you send me some babyseals to club regularly to pump up my bankroll, then i would take a shot against some better players too now and then! but even though i am barely an A or B player, i can only play in open events, and some open amateur events. and even the amateur events let the woman in, who are on the WPBA, until they win or move on cause they ain't scaring anyone off!

Jeremy

So you're saying the women should just stay barefoot,pregnant and in the kitchen? Or are you saying you welcome them as competition? Are you saying unless Allison or Karen or some other woman beats Reyes in nine out of ten finals they just don't measure up? Tell me at what point do they meet your exacting standards? Do they need to do push ups?

I was making the point that some of the ladies can compete quite well with anybody anytime but because of a lot of asinine attitude from men and a shortage of money in pool they have no real desire for a non gender tour. They do however like opens where they can occasionally win one (I'm sure your right it had to be a fluke when Karen won an open). I was also trying to understand why shortstops who are SOOOOOO much better than the women feel they need to "rob them" at each and every opportunity and then belittle they're own win by demeaning the person they beat. I've NEVER heard a woman pro do this.

 

[instroke75]

sorrry

So you're saying the women should just stay barefoot,pregnant and in the kitchen? Or are you saying you welcome them as competition? Are you saying unless Allison or Karen or some other woman beats Reyes in nine out of ten finals they just don't measure up? Tell me at what point do they meet your exacting standards? Do they need to do push ups?

I was making the point that some of the ladies can compete quite well with anybody anytime but because of a lot of asinine attitude from men and a shortage of money in pool they have no real desire for a non gender tour. They do however like opens where they can occasionally win one (I'm sure your right it had to be a fluke when Karen won an open). I was also trying to understand why shortstops who are SOOOOOO much better than the women feel they need to "rob them" at each and every opportunity and then belittle they're own win by demeaning the person they beat. I've NEVER heard a woman pro do this.

i'm sick and cranky, all i meant was i thought you were overstating there ability in comparison to the top 100 men, there are a ton of men out there who would gladly play Allison or Karen. but no I don't want them not to play, i actually just wish people would quit making a big deal out of one of them winning a regional tournament, or a match against a top player. hell I have upset plenty of top players in tournaments, but it's no big deal, cause if they miss i can run out too! mix tournaments can only help the woman, and help erase this stigma against them, because there is NO reason they can't play at the same level or higher, but they just don't yet! but by playing the better competition they will soon! it is a simple numbers game, there are so many more men out there playing, but the woman are catching up quick!

Jeremy

 

[Melissa Herndon]

I KNOW I am going to get flamed for this but pool is a game not a sport.having said that there should be no difference between the sexes.

I don't have to flame you. Look in a dictionary. Pool falls under the definition of a sport because there are physical requirements to the game...hand/eye coordination needed to complete it. You can play chess with just your brain (and someone else moving the pieces as you instruct). The same cannot be said for pool.

Just because it does not need brute physical strength doesn't mean that it is not a sport.

Melissa

 

[Melissa Herndon]

I don't think you can compare golf with pool in this situation, golf is way more physical when it comes to hitting a ball 300 yards. If it was just 'putting' then I think it would be fair. In you life time you won't see many women on a par 5 hole thats 550 yards get an eagle as compared to the men.

I golf regularly with several guys...and I outdrive 1/2 of them consistently. Technology is partially to thank for that. All of those guys are significantly stronger than I am...but I have a better driver.

Golf and pool are the same in that you can smoke, drink and have a beer belly and still be great. And they are both sports.

 

[Tommy Joe]

You're right few would survive financially on a genderless tour. Few B mens players would either which is why they don't.
The top female players have trouble earning a living on their own tour. There has and pretty likely will always be much more money available to the men even without a large successful mens tour. The women have the most potential for long term success with their tour(s) but they NEED the additional money available to them through the opens just to keep competing. Monica Webb who for the past number of years sat in 3rd to 6th place on the WPBA earned 17 - 38k with WPBA and "other tournament" winnings. When they add up winnings at years end there are usually 6 or so women listed with about 90+ men from around the world and I know for a fact those 6 women can take down at least half or more of the men listed any day of the week. But don't assume that only six or so women can play top notch pool. There are more women capable of competing on a genderless tour than many think. It's simply not in their best interest given mens attitudes. Just in this thread it's been indicated by men that women in opens are somehow taking money away from more deserving men and that the women should be willing to gamble away any money they do make. There is also a lot of pent up anger among the ladies over this attitude. If you doubt it just read blah blahs post.:frown:

I swear to God I want out of this discussion. I wasn't going to respond period to anyone. Then I saw your response to me and suddenly the pressure to quit overwhelmed me and I was forced to continue. So here we go.

Let's be honest, this is not a pool discussion and never has been. Remember those male B players we were talking about? In an honest format the women would not get an automatic pass. They'd have to go through the male B players to get to the A players of any gender. Right?

Wrong. Because they are women they will always have it easier. Good male players who are not good enough to compete regularly must find work outside the field of billiards. As it should be. But someone will always sponsor the female. A mediocre female player will enjoy more money and fame than a mediocre male player ever could. Maybe that too is as it should be.

Anyway, the question was a poll about whether or not we favor a genderless tour. My answer is I really don't give a shit one way or the other. Also, your comment about Monica Webb making only 30 grand or whatever a year, that aint bad for anyone doing something they claim to love. By the way, I saw her match on tv against Corr, when she won, and regardless of gender, it was amazing how she'd progressed from the last time I saw her when I genuinely thought she stunk. I like to see dramatic improvement like that, in anyone. Anyway, no matter what format is chosen, in the end more women who don't deserve it than men who do will get in, because women are for themselves, which is fine, but they also have the help, as they have throughout history, of men.

The Man

 

[Tommy Joe]

are you saying that the 5 or 6 woman can win a match against half the field of men or could beat them in a long term session? cause if you think that the top women can beat the top men in a long term session, then you are in neverland my friend! their are shortstops everywhere who would play any of these woman everyday! i have watched Ga Young Kim get busted by a shortstop in Orlando, and I am sure she would be on that list! so what if they can win a match against a top pro now and then, if they didn't have their soft woman's tour to beat up on, they wouldn't be able to fund their jumps into the deepend of the pool!

I mean if you send me some babyseals to club regularly to pump up my bankroll, then i would take a shot against some better players too now and then! but even though i am barely an A or B player, i can only play in open events, and some open amateur events. and even the amateur events let the woman in, who are on the WPBA, until they win or move on cause they ain't scaring anyone off!

Jeremy

I know how you feel even though I don't care about your situation personally. I mean, I don't care about how women are accepted in pool because I know it's the same in everything else. In our society, women can do anything a man can do, except maybe lift heavy things. All the means is the guy has to lift more of them. Anyway, if you're really good you'll get past those women. But you'll still have to go through all those men. Sometimes I let it get to me that women have it easier than they care to admit. What gets to me even more are men waiting for any chance to take the women's side by looking oh so sensitive and caring.

Hey, I care too, motha hubba!

 

[Tbeaux]

What gets to me even more are men waiting for any chance to take the women's side by looking oh so sensitive and caring.

Hey, I care too, motha hubba!

Really, I doubt it and I ain't no doormat you fuggin asswipe. End of discussion.

 

[blah blah]

This has gotten ridiculous.

This has gotten ridiculous. Let's be calm, methodical, and logical- we all generally agree with each other AND we all care about pool, but we're bickering and getting heated over stupid stuff.

Men have it easy AND hard, women have it easy AND hard, men have the help of women and women have the help of men. blah blah blah. I am honestly sorry that I tried to show some of the women's perspective on what it takes to get out there and try to play well. It really shouldn't have ever got to a comparison, and it doesn't ever need to be a pissing contest of who's got it worse or easier. It's just different.

Women got organized and they have their own tour. Men, if they feel the need or desire and can organize themselves, are absolutely free to have their own tour. There are open tournaments for both to enjoy. Just leave it at that.

Are you angry a woman "took a man out of the money in an open tournament?" Well, he should have played better. Losing plain sucks for the loser, man or woman.

If you're that mad about women playing in the opens, do start your own men- only tournaments and tour. Be smart about how you organize and sell it, and it could work.

If you're that mad about how hard *you* have to work to get anything compared to someone you just saw on t.v... Well, maybe it IS easier for her, maybe it's harder. She's in a different world than you, fighting different battles, and it's useless spending your energy worrying about someone else's life.

You walk up to the table and you calmly deal with whatever the layout is in the way that will help you reach your goal best. No crying, no whining, no yelling unfair over "different." We should all do that in life, too.

 

[instroke75]

amen

I swear to God I want out of this discussion. I wasn't going to respond period to anyone. Then I saw your response to me and suddenly the pressure to quit overwhelmed me and I was forced to continue. So here we go.

Let's be honest, this is not a pool discussion and never has been. Remember those male B players we were talking about? In an honest format the women would not get an automatic pass. They'd have to go through the male B players to get to the A players of any gender. Right?

Wrong. Because they are women they will always have it easier. Good male players who are not good enough to compete regularly must find work outside the field of billiards. As it should be. But someone will always sponsor the female. A mediocre female player will enjoy more money and fame than a mediocre male player ever could. Maybe that too is as it should be.

Anyway, the question was a poll about whether or not we favor a genderless tour. My answer is I really don't give a shit one way or the other. Also, your comment about Monica Webb making only 30 grand or whatever a year, that aint bad for anyone doing something they claim to love. By the way, I saw her match on tv against Corr, when she won, and regardless of gender, it was amazing how she'd progressed from the last time I saw her when I genuinely thought she stunk. I like to see dramatic improvement like that, in anyone. Anyway, no matter what format is chosen, in the end more women who don't deserve it than men who do will get in, because women are for themselves, which is fine, but they also have the help, as they have throughout history, of men.

The Man

Amen, this was exactly what I was trying to say! But you said perfectly!

Jeremy

 

[Tommy Joe]

Amen, this was exactly what I was trying to say! But you said perfectly!

Jeremy

Excellent. I was hoping to end my part in this discussion on a positive note. Before I go, let me say that I used to post into alt.comedy.standup, at one time a very active group, now bleak and dead. The same male/female discussions would come up quite often.

It would usually start with someone asking, "Why are men comics funnier than women comics?", at which time someone would always respond with, "Who says that's true? Just look at so and so", mentioning one or two successful women comics.

The back and forth of those discussions were very much the same as the ones we're seeing here. Anyone who agreed that men were funnier than women was branded as prejudiced or narrow-minded. Of course there are funny women, but men are funnier, simple as that, because men generally are better than women at just about anything except having babies and crying on the witness stand to get less time than whatever guy they were arrested with. Anyway, just wanted you to know, swear to God, the exchanges in those arguments were no different from the ones we're seeing here. So I've been through it before and I'm glad this discussion is over, at least for me.

Tommy Joe

 

[akaTrigger]

Excellent. I was hoping to end my part in this discussion on a positive note. Before I go, let me say that I used to post into alt.comedy.standup, at one time a very active group, now bleak and dead. The same male/female discussions would come up quite often.

It would usually start with someone asking, "Why are men comics funnier than women comics?", at which time someone would always respond with, "Who says that's true? Just look at so and so", mentioning one or two successful women comics.

The back and forth of those discussions were very much the same as the ones we're seeing here. Anyone who agreed that men were funnier than women was branded as prejudiced or narrow-minded. Of course there are funny women, but men are funnier, simple as that, because men generally are better than women at just about anything except having babies and crying on the witness stand to get less time than whatever guy they were arrested with. Anyway, just wanted you to know, swear to God, the exchanges in those arguments were no different from the ones we're seeing here. So I've been through it before and I'm glad this discussion is over, at least for me.

Tommy Joe

Are you sure?

 

[JimS]

I clicked no by mistake!!!! (I was thinking of mixed doubles and I hate doubles format.. mixed or not, so I acted in haste. I'm good at that. )

Hell yess I'm in favor of men and women matching up. There is absolutely no reason they should not.

 

[Tommy Joe]

Are you sure?

The discussion will never end for me. One way or another it will come up again. But I'm done with it here. I don't care how people run their tournaments since I'm not getting in any of them. But in case your sarcasm was prompted by your inability to understand my words, or my inability to convey them, let me sum it up one last time - just for you.

I am for a tour without gender. I am not opposed to the women's league. I am not for or against anything when it comes to format. I'm only saying what I think you know I've been saying all along, that some women can occasionally beat the top male players, but so can some men. If women did not have their own league, the women who dominate their own league would not be able to make as much money in a genderless one. I don't care what anyone says, I know I'm right. The fact that they have their own league is proof enough. But you're right, for me the discussion will never end, because even though I don't hate women, in general I do tend to resent them. Not for their advantages, but for never admitting they have a few. I also resent men who go out of their way to defend women at every turn, as if they truly are the weaker sex. So, the fact that I resent men as much as women proves that I am not gay. But I'm thinking about posing as gay (I can do a good job), and starting a new all-gay male pool league. Might even make it an all gender gay league. But to get in you have to prove you're gay by engaging in a gay act on videotape for the league panel of commissioners to study and judge. Rack 'em up!

Tommy Joe

 

[akaTrigger]

The discussion will never end for me. One way or another it will come up again. But I'm done with it here. I don't care how people run their tournaments since I'm not getting in any of them. But in case your sarcasm was prompted by your inability to understand my words, or my inability to convey them, let me sum it up one last time - just for you.

I am for a tour without gender. I am not opposed to the women's league. I am not for or against anything when it comes to format. I'm only saying what I think you know I've been saying all along, that some women can occasionally beat the top male players, but so can some men. If women did not have their own league, the women who dominate their own league would not be able to make as much money in a genderless one. I don't care what anyone says, I know I'm right. The fact that they have their own league is proof enough. But you're right, for me the discussion will never end, because even though I don't hate women, in general I do tend to resent them. Not for their advantages, but for never admitting they have a few. I also resent men who go out of their way to defend women at every turn, as if they truly are the weaker sex. So, the fact that I resent men as much as women proves that I am not gay. But I'm thinking about posing as gay (I can do a good job), and starting a new all-gay male pool league. Might even make it an all gender gay league. But to get in you have to prove you're gay by engaging in a gay act on videotape for the league panel of commissioners to study and judge. Rack 'em up!

Tommy Joe

LMAO - you did take me wrong. My sarcasm was directed at the implications a few times that it was your last post. I was pokin fun, is all. That's why I put the wink at the end of what I said before. See?

Take care, Tommy Joe.

 

[Snapshot9]

Easy Money!

This is so easy, it's funny!!!l Go out and get 3 qualified women, and pay them to start a pro men's tour. Let them decide who can play, the rules, and what is the future of the tour.

When someone is better than you at something, you should learn from them.