Are you Pro, or Anti a Rating, or Handicap System in Local Tournments

PoolSleuth

PoolSleuth

Banned
Last evening I was talking to one of the Better Player in the Area, he is very Anti a Rating, or Handicap System in Local Tournments.

I tried defending the Handicap System in Local Tournments saying it give lesser skilled player a chance to win.
 
What the better player fails to realize is that at a lot of local grassroots sporting events or tournaments, is that when a select few are consistatly winning, people eventually will stop showing up, and your "better shooter" will have no tournaments to go to in his local area.
 
I run a handicapped tournament, so put me in the 'fer it category. People complain, some more than others. But one of the better players usually wins...APA 4 and 5 speeds, and sometimes worse, get to the money now and then, which is fun.

What the top players who don't like the handicap fail to realize is that the handicap is what fills up the field, filling up the pot. Also, from the owner's perspective, the bangers generally drink more than the serious shooters (with some exceptions of course.) So they're more inclined to add money into tournaments that draw the bangers -- mostly handicapped tournaments.

But unhandicapped can work well, too. Go to Orange Ball in Rockville, MD on a wednesday and for just $20.00 you get to play a few champions and some local shortstops. They fill up the 32-man field pretty often, even though there are probably only 8 players (Brandon S., Mike D., Keith M., Jersey Jon, Doug S., Joey R., Ilir, Rob, and ??) with a shot of taking 1st.

Cory
 
Gregg said:
What the better player fails to realize is that at a lot of local grassroots sporting events or tournaments, is that when a select few are consistatly winning, people eventually will stop showing up, and your "better shooter" will have no tournaments to go to in his local area.
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AMEN but no Rating or Handicapping System is Perfect, as some better player MAY get a Low Handicapping Number/Rating for a while...:)
 
Its the reason why I don't play tournaments. I don't like giving up weight that I don't have control over. If you want to beat me, practice its what I do.
 
I served on the PHX/AZ ratings committee for several years. We gave up our time to try and make the system better. It's not a bad system, sure some may be better.

The problem many times was the lack of knowledge by those doing the rating. Someone would say such and such is an 8 all day long when they really were a 7 etc. Few were on a mission to raise someone when it wasn't justified but it happened.

All 7's 8's etc are not created equal. Those that try to improve may very well be 7.7 for example but they still remain a 7. When one is at the end of their level and the opponent is at the beginning of their number, say 6.1 there is a significant gap.

Rating is good but for those that play at a high level there are fewer tournaments. Besides the 10 doesn’t want to give up weight and the 6 doesn’t want to play a 10 period. Most room owners have lower rated tournaments because they drink more, LOL and because of sheer numbers. Pool players sure are a strange breed, hell just get up and play. How are you going to get better? Many times you have to give up or accept weight gambling to make a game or you won’t gamble for long. You’ll be classified as a nit if you do.

I’ve had to give up more weight than I liked but I have to come out of the gate playing. I can use the excuse (like many) I’m not playing much and the list goes on. I am rated what I am and I know the only way for me to win is practice, play good and it doesn’t hurt to have a little luck. To overcome weight (either direction) you have to play just like any match between even players. Even if it’s not exactly even.

Rod
 
Handicapped Tournaments

Rod said:
I’ve had to give up more weight than I liked but I have to come out of the gate playing. I can use the excuse (like many) I’m not playing much and the list goes on. I am rated what I am and I know the only way for me to win is practice, play good and it doesn’t hurt to have a little luck. To overcome weight (either direction) you have to play just like any match between even players. Even if it’s not exactly even.

Rod
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tap, tap, tap...
 
I'm for a handicap system. It's the only way to get people who are new to the game to join in the fun and not play once in their first tournament, get beat bad, and never play another tournament again.
 
I sort of fall on both sides of the coin here. I have been in the situation where I am playing in a local tournament and spotting some players more than half the rack. I think that is completely ridiculous. One of us should not be in the tournament. Is it me or them? OTOH, I have been in situations where I am spotting somebody 6 to my 9, only to have them come out of the gate with a 4-pack. Luck? Perhaps but not probable. Of course I welcome a challenge at any time, but when the handicap gets ridiculous or a player's speed is grossly underestimated it sort of muddies the water, which is one of the major problems in league play these days.

The local tournament they have here in El Paso works great - its a round robin deal - race to 1 - when you lose 7 games - you're out... for me I can only lose 5 games and I'm out. I think that's fair. If I'm spotting somebody the wild 4 (which I have done - lol) I feel as if that player should have never entered the tournament in the first place. lol
 
PoolSleuth said:
Last evening I was talking to one of the Better Player in the Area, he is very Anti a Rating, or Handicap System in Local Tournments.

I tried defending the Handicap System in Local Tournments saying it give lesser skilled player a chance to win.
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Last night I played a handicapped 14.1 match at 140-35 (I was the one going to 140). I didn't play up to what consider my average level. I lost 132-35. If I play badly, I should lose.

Lots of "best in room" players figure that they should get money every time they show up. They make some kind of bogus "I put in more hours" argument. I see quite a few C and B players who devote a lot of time to their games -- more than some of the top players -- but for one reason or another don't move to A or semi-pro.
 
I want both

As a competitor I have always selected sports where I could battle the best, no class system that kept me from competing with anyone. I like things that way.

As a realist though, I know many people won't keep banging their head against a brick wall or tilting at windmills. Only smart business to give everyone a chance to win even if the win doesn't mean much. I have seen many a fierce battle over a five dollar trophy.

The handicap system is a good idea for the business but I surely don't like playing handicapped matches. The spot is never truly accurate and if I win over a player who is considered superior to me it means nothing, I had a spot. Regardless of outcome unless I am the highest ranked player there I can never be proud of a win.

Hu

Njhustler1 said:
I'm for a handicap system. It's the only way to get people who are new to the game to join in the fun and not play once in their first tournament, get beat bad, and never play another tournament again.
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I am not a good player but would rather play an open event than some handicapped thing or another. Mostly because I find the people most concerned with handicaps to be people I don't want to spend any time with. This phenomenon is not limited to pool; I have posted before that the handicap specialists in golf drive me nuts. I think that worrying excessively about rigging the outcome and winning prizes goes against the better reasons to play a sport. You can step up and compete as a sportsperson or be a heartless nit. I suppose there is a place for handicapping when prize money is at stake, but it doesn't excite me. Many people love playing for the prize with a handicap, but as I said, these are often people I don't want to spend a lot of time with.
 
When they started to handicap me, I quit entering their tournaments. I prefer rules that limit the previous weeks winner from entering in the following tournament over a handicap system.
 
I think handicapped tournaments are good for the game because they level the playing field and encourage more people to play the game competitively. Very few people will repeatedly pay to play in a tournament in which they feel they have no chance to win.

Some selfish people will manipulate handicaps to their advantage and that is the price you pay for getting more people involved in the game.

I'm curious. How many people here who don't like handicaps ponied up the $1000 to play in an IPT qualifier? If not, why not?
 
stroke said:
When they started to handicap me, I quit entering their tournaments. I prefer rules that limit the previous weeks winner from entering in the following tournament over a handicap system.
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He in the Valley of the Sun there has to be 55-60 tournment a Weeks, so you would find place to play. Beginner to Pro Level...
 
I lean both way on the handicap and no handicap tournaments.

The pool hall i frequent runs a Sunday handicap tournament and it brings in about 20-32 people. With the cost being 15$ plus calcutta. Now the general population is of people who are 4's,5's, and 6's. There are a few 7's 8's and 9's and a couple people who are 10 and up.

Now since i rarely play in this tournament and when i did, i never played well, i am still a 4 lol. But thats besides the fact. This tournament allows me the chance to play guys who are better than me, and still have a chance to win. And also gives me the chance to see if i am enhancing my pool skills too.

I like these tournaments because any other time if i wanted to play one of these guys who are better than me, it would be only while gambling and then your talking about atleast 50$ a set.

Now, i am also for having seperate tournaments for D/C players A/B and so on. Then its just a heads up match and you dont hafta worry about someone having a large spot and they end up beating you because of that handicap spot.

With these tournaments your always going to have someone who always seems to end up in the money during these tournaments. And others complain about him never being banned.

Well this is why i am a firm believer of banning someone from a low skill level tournament if they are always in the top 5. Tell them to show up for the other tournaments, and be firm about it. If they dont, oh well, cry about it. And if someone does dump so they dont get booted, well boot them anyways, and tell them too bad, they are being moved up to the next skill level tournament.

On the high end of tournaments I love the Open tournaments. It brings out the players! And then you see how good you really are. I've played in a couple Open tournaments and always came away with alot of knowledge and learned about stuff i would have never thought of. And you see how Top players move around the table and shoot certain shots, and play safe. Its truly a amazing thing to see even if your not playing in the tournament.

dave
 
Handicapping ruined pool in Phoenix. At least it changed it. Rating and spots has becoe a major part of the game down there.

people think it is owed to them without thinking about how ridiculous it sounds...

"He cheated because he is better than me"

"I would have won if he was rated correctly"

"Want to play some? What are you rated?"

"He can't play, he's too good"

"I usually play at 10 speed but I'm off today"

"I was playing (top local players name here) and beat his brains in and I'm only a 5 lol"

"Want to play in the tournament tonight? maybe, whats the handicap?"

"No way your an 8, you play like a 7"

"Why is he a 9 and I'm a 7? I beat him the other day..."


I could go on but this is the mentality of Arizona pool for all the serious players who ar not that good yet. They seem to focus on ratings more than getting better... Ratings are just as important as learning how to aim sometime.

I hate beating people who give me weight in a tournament. I'd rather lose even than win with spots. I play to win because my skill earned it for me. I want to be better than you not "helped out".


With all that said, I completely understand the proprietors point of view. it is very true that bangers drink more. No doubt about that. I am just disgusted with the whole attitude that the GPRC created with the bangers who now think that playing good pool and handicaps are on par with eachother...
 
I've always been 100% against handicaps until I read this post, but here's my argument from both sides. Plain and simply, I've always felt that the better man should win wether it be boxing, pool, swimming, politics, or job interviews. If the guy that comes out on top is not the guy that is the most skilled, the strongest, smartest, most qualified, best looking or whatever, then the contest in question is no longer a contest. You don't have to be one of the best doctors in the world in order to make a living as a doctor, but in sports, you have to be one of the better athletes in the world just to be able to bring home a paycheck. When people choose to enter competitive sports, they should be trying for nothing less than coming out on the top of the competition. If a tournament ends up rewarding the lesser player for a less than top quality performance, then the integrity of the sport suffers.
Now, on the other hand, I've been to places that held weekly or monthly tournaments where the the same top two or three guys were always finishing in the money, and the other 20 or so guys just ended up donating entry fees. Eventually people stopped showing up, and the tournament died. Part of me says, well those that don't show up a tournaments 'cause they don't think they can win, are those guys that need to be weeded out anyways because they'll never get very far as competitors. But the other part of me says, it sounds good to try to weed out the lesser players that don't have a chance of winning anyway, but when only three guys show up for a tournament, those three guys end up suffering too as they no longer have people to play against.
I really don't like the handicap tournaments, but I realize that without them, there probably wouldn't be many tournements simply because lot's of guys wouldn't show up. I think that there should be both handicap and 'open' events for both types of players.
dave
 
PoolSleuth said:
... I tried defending the Handicap System in Local Tournments saying it give lesser skilled player a chance to win.
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Historically, there has also been handicapping in World Championships, believe it or not. In the 1930s, Walter Lindrum played so much better than all the other top players that he had to give up about 30% of the game in one World Championship. The matches were several days long and played to about 20,000 points. Walter's opponents started with 7,000 points. Lindrum won the tournament.

Most people have no idea who Lindrum was or how well he played. It's between amusing and disgusting when the "best ever" discussions start and he's not among the first to be mentioned.

Why a spot in the World Championships? I suppose to make the event interesting. Maybe so people who liked to wager would come and watch.
 
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