Argument/Forfeit at Predator World 14.1 Championship

SUPERSTAR

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
Did anyone in attendance happen to catch the argument that happened between Bob Maidhof and Stevie Moore.

Apparently, from what i was told, Stevie called a foul on Bob as Bob was about to run out the game.

Apparently, it was the second foul called by Moore. The first, resulted in Bob saying "I don't think i fouled, but if you think i fouled, then go ahead" show of sportsmanship.

Apparently, Bob was on a big comeback, and with only a couple balls left before the breakshot to what would have been his runout, when Stevie called another foul, which Bob didn't believe, seeing as there were only a couple of balls left on the table.
Apparently, Bob and Stevie disagreed, and Bob broke down his cue telling Stevie that if that's what he needed to do to win, then go ahead.

Obviously, i'm wondering about referees (if there are any) and their role in the championship, but i am also wondering if any spectators were present who actually saw what happened, who might shed some light on the truth of the matter.

Did Bob foul?
Or was it a shark/move by Stevie?
 
Unfortunate. I know this is a topic of controversy, cue ball fouls vs all ball fouls, and although my scales tilt in favor of cue ball fouls with 16point and rerack if done twice in a game. I will go out on a limb and say I think its way wrong to use all ball fouls W/O a ref. :(

I wonder if actual player voting prior to the tourney would be a good option?
 
Without a ref, the rule makes no sense. I consider myself a very gracious player, and there is no way in hell I am going to give up the table if I don't know I've fouled, without a ref.

That's terrible that Bob gave up like that, because with a win over Ralf already under his belt, this would be a nice second victory. Still, we've all been in situations where guys have put us on tilt, and the things we do in response are sometimes not the best course of action.

"All-ball fouls" is a nice theory, but in practice it's very messy. A guy's turn at the table should not end because a button on his shirt barely brushes a ball. All that does is penalize people for their physical qualities (a lanky, tall person has a huge edge over a short, stocky person), and it leads to ill feelings for being called on a foul you are not even aware of. I really think it's a terrible practice, one whose time should come to a merciful end.

- Steve
 
Steve, i completely agree.

It's a shame that something like this has to happen in order for people to realize that some rules just should not be in place.

Having said that, and having played pool for long enough to know the broad spectrum of pool player's personalities, I am left wondering as to what really happened.

If they had different rules, or refs overlooking each detail of the matches, one wouldn't be left to wonder, and this would be a non issue with neither player being able to take advantage of the situation, and both players being held accountable for errors.

With no refs in place, how is a player supposed to protect themselves/know the truth?

Just seems kind of naive to me. You would think that promoters would have enough vision to see things of this nature as real possibilities, but i guess, if they don't, and this is an unfortunate example as a result of it.
 
Really a shame that Bob quit. But the call would have gone in his favor as if Ref is not asked to watch, then always in favor of shooter.

I disagree that they should play cueball only in 14.1, or actually in any game. It's so sloppy when players move balls around and then move it back. In golf, you're on your honor so why can't pro pool players do the same.

All ball fouls exist in every country in the world even when ref is not present. Europeans and asians are used to this rule.

Moving balls back in place rule only exists in USA. Is that odd that only americans have problem with this?

None of the foreign players seem to even hesitate that it was all ball fouls.

From what the foreign players say, americans are thought of as having the worst sportsmanship.
I hope to see this change.
 
Actually if they were playing by BCA rules, "all ball fouls" should only be in effect when a referee is present.

Barbara
 
allprobilliards said:
In golf, you're on your honor so why can't pro pool players do the same.

All ball fouls exist in every country in the world even when ref is not present. Europeans and asians are used to this rule.

Moving balls back in place rule only exists in USA. Is that odd that only americans have problem with this?

None of the foreign players seem to even hesitate that it was all ball fouls.

From what the foreign players say, americans are thought of as having the worst sportsmanship.
I hope to see this change.
Click to expand...

I think you've missed my point. This has nothing to do with the honor system. First, I can't imagine a situation in golf where someone could foul without knowing it. That is the whole debate here. I am not talking about intentional cheating.

Second, you are bringing up sportsmanship but again this has nothing to do with the debate.

The issue is that this rule may very well be the only rule in any major "sport" which mandates a foul on a player for something he is not aware of.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
I think you've missed my point. This has nothing to do with the honor system. First, I can't imagine a situation in golf where someone could foul without knowing it. That is the whole debate here. I am not talking about intentional cheating.

Second, you are bringing up sportsmanship but again this has nothing to do with the debate.

The issue is that this rule may very well be the only rule in any major "sport" which mandates a foul on a player for something he is not aware of.

- Steve
Click to expand...

Steve,
Actually, penalties occur in golf quite occasionally without the player's knowledge. If a ball moves after you address it, it is a penalty (though occasionally the player is looking away and does not see it). There have even been instances of a television camera seeing it (and the player didn't), viewers call in, and the player would appropriately add the appropriate penalty stroke before posting his scorecard.

Obviously a player can't call it if he doesn't see it; and in the above instances no one thought the player was cheating.
 
Is That Like "Tales From The Cryptic" ?

Neil said:
I think that this is a classic example of why there should be refs. Especially for something as important as a world championship. There's really no excuse for them not being there except to save a couple of bucks.
And if the budget is that tight, they shouldn't have been putting it on.
Click to expand...


WHO shouldn't have put it on ?
Doug
( don't be so cryptic )


Btw, I agree with you.






.
 
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Steve Lipsky said:
... The issue is that this rule may very well be the only rule in any major "sport" which mandates a foul on a player for something he is not aware of. ...
Click to expand...
Foot fouls at tennis. Various out-of-bounds fouls at American football, soccer, volley ball, etc. The players get involved in the game and can't always notice their fouls in the heat of the battle.

Pool is different in that the shooter has control of the tempo. In the particular case in point, without a video record we are unlikely to ever be sure of what actually happened. But let's assume that the "fouler" was close to an object ball in his stance. He should take extra care not to touch it given the rules of the tournament and the history in that particular game. As a practical matter, he should be able to call over a ref to watch. Of course, there is little defense against a call for fouling a ball at the other end of the table -- maybe appeal to the audience.

Unfortunately, most players today in the US are not used to taking any sort of care about not touching the object balls. They have gotten lazy and careless. I know this from personal experience since I play all fouls against one opponent, and I can expect to foul myself at last once per hour.

Any "world tournament" that does not have "all fouls" as the rule is hardly a world tournament. But then I would have thought that referees would be a requirement as well. Oh well.
 
Willie, thanks for pointing that out about golf. To be honest, I don't even know what that means, lol, but I'm sure you're right!

Bob, thanks for pointing out the other fouls. They do give me something to think about, but in my mind they are more dubious examples than the golf one. I think putting your foot in the wrong place is quite a different thing than not being aware that your shirt button grazed an object ball.

And from a practical standpoint, if they had to pay refs to work each table for each match, the cost would skyrocket very quickly. You'd also need a larger room, to allow for more space between each table, which would cost more. Taking volunteers works, but gee, is it that easy to find people who want to be in a position of having to call a "shirt foul" on a world champion in an important match ;).

I realize my opinion may not be the popular one, but I'm stickin' to it!
 
I would agree that there is no excuse for not having a ref on the job in an event like this. I didn't see the incident, but I have seen Stevie play before, and would be very surprised if he did this as a sharking tactic. If he called a foul, it was probably because he saw one.
Steve
 
Well, i can't fault Bob's integrity at the table.

Several years ago, we were at a 9ball tournament in Lancaster PA, and Bob was playing Jose Garcia, and i was playing Jimmy Fusco 2 tables away.

During that match, Bob committed a foul, and Jose didn't see it and Bob called the foul on himself and gave up ball in hand, which COST him the match.

So i can only think that either he fouled unknowingly if he did, or that it never happened and it was a shark move on Stevie's part.
This all being after he had conceded 1 foul to Stevie earlier in the match, and his being EXTRA AWARE of the rules.

Kind of makes me suspicious, but then again, i am ALWAYS suspicious.
 
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