Argument/Forfeit at Predator World 14.1 Championship

Irish634 said:
I, as well as many others will disagree with you on this. Bob stood up for what he believed in, not something many people in this world do. I have the utmost respect for someone that does this. I'd like to think I'd have done the same thing when my integrity and fair play is questioned (not once --- but twice according to the accounts).

I think Bob gained a helluva lot more than he lost.

Craig

So if Bob was right and did not foul and he "gives in,gives up" to his opponent and quits that's good?

Many people in this world stand up for what they believe in and when you stand up for what you believe in you "don't quit". It takes heart and self control to stand up for what you believe in and never give in to others when they're wrong.

I'm not sure were the word integrity fits in about quitting when you are being sharked or tested by one's opponent.

I'm not hear to bash Bob and Bob has an impeccable reputation and he made his decision and that's fine for him. I wouldn't give my opponent the satisfaction of that kind of win.

If I'm in a match and my opponent tries to pull a move, I personally don't give in, you may give in and that's your choice.

As you say you disagree as do many others on my original post...
I still believe what I believe and I have decided not to quit.
 
I've known Stevie for many years and have never seen or heard of any problems with his conduct and no sharking incedents, therefore I think the match should be replayed with Charlie Williams refereeing personally. I feel 100% sure that Stevie would be willing to replay no problem at all.

Leonard
 
Bob Jewett said:
Foot fouls at tennis.

Bob,

I believe there are at least 7 refs per match during a pro event, 6 linesmen and one in the chair. Not to mention the new electronic systems that accurately show if a ball was in or not.

The same rules apply for lower level tennis but you're lucky if you get one ref per match during a typical high school match (at least when I played). We had to call our own.

I agree with Steve that there's no way to tell if your shirt slightly touches a ball. What if you're playing a cheat? I think it should be cue ball fouls only unless a ref is present.
 
Big Perm said:
Soapbox time :D

First, I don't see where the term "World Championship" has anything to do with refs. It's a marketing term to draw a better field, please sponsors, and hopefully get more spectators. ...
No. If you accept the authority of the IOC, WCBS and WPA, this is, in fact, a World Championship. It is recognized as such by all national pool federations. Those federations were invited to send their quotas of national and confederational champions.

In the past (before 1992 or so) the international organization was not there, and for all practical purposes anyone had as much right to call his event a pool World Championship as anyone else. Things are different now.
 
Bob Jewett said:
No. If you accept the authority of the IOC, WCBS and WPA, this is, in fact, a World Championship. It is recognized as such by all national pool federations. Those federations were invited to send their quotas of national and confederational champions.

It certainly has an elite enough field to be considered a world championship.
 
Bob Jewett said:
No. If you accept the authority of the IOC, WCBS and WPA, this is, in fact, a World Championship. It is recognized as such by all national pool federations. Those federations were invited to send their quotas of national and confederational champions.

In the past (before 1992 or so) the international organization was not there, and for all practical purposes anyone had as much right to call his event a pool World Championship as anyone else. Things are different now.

I stand corrected :D

Thanks Bob...
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
... I agree with Steve that there's no way to tell if your shirt slightly touches a ball. What if you're playing a cheat? I think it should be cue ball fouls only unless a ref is present.
The sad part of this is that in the US, most players expect to be cheated and there are a fair number of cheats. In my experience and according to some of the comments above, this is not so true outside the US. There are many players in the US who honor the game and the rules and will call fouls on themselves. But there are many who don't and won't.

I think there should be referees at all tables. It is hard to do and takes both time and money, but I think it is the right thing even if the prize fund has to be reduced. Easy for me to say since I'm not the organizer.

"Cue ball fouls only" is not appropriate for a World Championship.

In one regional collegiate tournament I played in, there was a ref at each table and we were calling all fouls. My opponent brushed a ball with his arm, and the ref didn't happen to see it. I quietly asked my opponent about the foul and he said, "Yeah, but the ref didn't see it," and he continued to shoot. Fortunately, I play better when the adrenaline is flowing, so I caught up and won the match.
 
Steve Moore is a great player,seen him a few times.Bob I have meet and watched play at vf,he use to deal in cues alot. I cant believe Bob would quit unless he was absloutely right. I Think he did the right thing,you have to stand up for your beliefs,its only a game.I dont think Moore would shark him and somewhere a mistake was made but I would think from what I have seen of Moore he would not do it intentionally. If Moore was making comments during the match before it came down to this final foul he should have went and gotten the tournament director to ref after the first foul he thought he saw. Sometimes you dont always see what you think you saw like that IPT match were I think it was Eferen? fouled or didnt foul,there still trying to decide:D
 
It sounds to me from what I have read in this thread is that it was not so much as to what happened but more to as what was said.

Many times one commits a fouls and that person truly believes he did not foul.

Many times one does not commit a foul and the opponant truly believes that he did foul.

Either one of these situations may lead to things being said that could lead into and ugly outcome.

Judgeing from the what others have said regarding the character of both these gentelmen It seems like they are both very well respected. I have never met either of them but I know who they are.

I will reserve my opinion until I hear more.

If things are as they seem then I can understand why Bob did what he did.
 
well, I personally spoke to both players today. I'll preface this by stating both responded well to my inquiry, as I suspect they answered as if asked by someone of authority, not a player or fan.

Bob told me, that stevie was "verbal" throughout the match. Early on, he called bob on a foul, and bob didn't question the call, although he maintains that he is almost certain that he did not. What is surprising here is that several other times in the match, at stevie's insistence, a ref came to watch specific shots to be an impartial viewer. Oddly, the 2 times stevie called foul he had NOT requested a ref. Stevie was ahead most of the match, and it was towards the end, as bob was closing the gap, the second foul was called. Apparently, bob was making a tricky shot with the bridge, when stevie said the cue came in illegal contact with a ball. Bob says that because of the first called foul, and the few times the ref had been called over, he was EXTRA AWARE of the foul potential, and swears no such foul took place. I'll get to more of bob in a moment.

Stevie on the other hand, swears he saw the foul. He went on to say that he was offended that bob didnt call it on himself, adding there was no way bob couldn't have NOT known he fouled.

I believe, strongly, that both players sincerely believe their own accountiing of the event.

Now, with that said, I don't know why stevie didnt call over the ref before this shot. Afterall, he wan't shy about doing so previously on a few prior occasions in this very match. The heat got turned up as Bon disregarded the call and began his preshot routine on the next ball. In my opinion, bob was doing the right thing. No ref, no foul. In fact, without the presence of a ref, the only person who can call a foul, is the shooter himself.

After that, there was some unfortunate name calling, and bob unscrewed.

Bob, inretrospect, really regrets doing so, and he is ashamed. He was awfully hard on himself, and was worried that his behavior would have a negative impact on the tournament. I assured him that was nonsense, but that in the future, there is never any good reason to quit something he has devoted most of his life participating and supporting.

Hope this adds new perspectives

Tv
 
Thank you for answering this.

Was that a universal there was name calling, or was that Bob saying there was name calling?

Reason i'm asking is cause from what it sounds like, it sounds like your saying that the name calling was a definite thing.
 
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Thank you for shedding a better light on this unfortunate situation Randy. Its clear to me now that Stevie was in the wrong here , once Bob continued to shoot then that foul in question is over with, without a ref the call goes to the shooter, Stevie would have no business keeping it up after Bob got into his routine to shoot, that in itself is a foul. Not calling over a ref with Bob using a bridge closely to the balls was Stevies mistake and he should have sat and kept his thoughts to himself and let Bob shoot. Stevie may have actually thought Bob fouled and not have been trying to shark but once Bob started to shoot it had to be over, and he should have respected Bob's decision.
 
Well, well, well...

I guess ole Stevie boy didn't get to the 18th spot in the the AZ players list being an angel, did he?

I've been on the receiving end of the kind of sharking [[[ edit for clarity: not from Stevie, but from others, I've never met or even seen Stevie ]]] he apparently seems to engage in when the time is right. [[[ edit: I have been on the receiving end ]]], both in tournaments and when matching up, and I can tell you that I'd have done the same thing Bob did. I don't care who the XXXXXXX XXXX the guy is, I won't take that XXXX and will, and have, either called off the match immediately, or had a few choice words that are keeping with the spirit of pool for my opponent. If in the end their blatant sharking ended up in a victory for them, I don't hesitate to let the whole room know about it, very possibly in a very loud voice, so that the person is definitively outed. And those kinds of knuckleheads will never have another chance to get into my pocket.

What Stevie boy did was very unsportsmanlike, from everything I read here, but I guess anybody with an ounce of intuition might not take a liking to him. Just check out the photos in the AZ players section to see him in action. Definitely not my kind of guy.

And I sure won't be rooting for him anytime soon.

My 2 cents worth, ICBW.

Flex

Edit:
 
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pooltchr said:
I would agree that there is no excuse for not having a ref on the job in an event like this. I didn't see the incident, but I have seen Stevie play before, and would be very surprised if he did this as a sharking tactic. If he called a foul, it was probably because he saw one.
Steve
i have known stevie for 20 years or more and i can assure you of one thing: if stevie calls a foul on someone he does so because he believes beyond a shadow of a doubt that you fouled. he would never do something like this to "shark" or "pull a move" .stevie is very polite and wouldn't want to win by using any kind of tactics. i do not know bob m. and i am not saying anything negative about him, but out of the 64 players entered in the event, stevie would be the LAST person to want to win by any means other than being the better player on a given day.
 
Flex said:
Well, well, well...

I guess ole Stevie boy didn't get to the 18th spot in the the AZ players list being an angel, did he?

I've been on the receiving end of the kind of sharking he apparently seems to engage in when the time is right, both in tournaments and when matching up, and I can tell you that I'd have done the same thing Bob did. I don't care who the XXXXXXX XXXX the guy is, I won't take that XXXX and will, and have, either called off the match immediately, or had a few choice words that are keeping with the spirit of pool for my opponent. If in the end their blatant sharking ended up in a victory for them, I don't hesitate to let the whole room know about it, very possibly in a very loud voice, so that the person is definitively outed. And those kinds of knuckleheads will never have another chance to get into my pocket.
What Stevie boy did was very unsportsmanlike, from everything I read here, but I guess anybody with an ounce of intuition might not take a liking to him. Just check out the photos in the AZ players section to see him in action. Definitely not my kind of guy.

And I sure won't be rooting for him anytime soon.

My 2 cents worth, ICBW.

Flex
by getting on here under a alias"flex" and talking down about "stevieboy" it is obvious to me that you certainly do not know very well,if at all. you brought up matching up, and you must have been on the losing side of one of those matchups(lots of people have) and have been left with a bad taste in your mouth. you are basing your opinions of a person on "intuition and pictures" and coming to the conclusion that someone is not your kind of guy. lol. i am currently looking at the cover of the mrch edition of inside pool mag. with stevie on the cover and i think billiards digest(?) recently put him on the cover and did a article on him as well. luckily for stevie, these two publications don't share your opinions.
 
Are you serious?

Flex said:
Well, well, well...

I guess ole Stevie boy didn't get to the 18th spot in the the AZ players list being an angel, did he?

I've been on the receiving end of the kind of sharking he apparently seems to engage in when the time is right, both in tournaments and when matching up, and I can tell you that I'd have done the same thing Bob did. I don't care who the XXXXXXX XXXX the guy is, I won't take that XXXX and will, and have, either called off the match immediately, or had a few choice words that are keeping with the spirit of pool for my opponent. If in the end their blatant sharking ended up in a victory for them, I don't hesitate to let the whole room know about it, very possibly in a very loud voice, so that the person is definitively outed. And those kinds of knuckleheads will never have another chance to get into my pocket.

What Stevie boy did was very unsportsmanlike, from everything I read here, but I guess anybody with an ounce of intuition might not take a liking to him. Just check out the photos in the AZ players section to see him in action. Definitely not my kind of guy.

And I sure won't be rooting for him anytime soon.

My 2 cents worth, ICBW.

Flex
Ever met Stevie? I've been around him a lot, broke bread so to speak. First, we don't even know what happened, and now he's being hung out to dry. Come on.
 
Flex said:
I've been on the receiving end of the kind of sharking he apparently seems to engage in when the time is right, both in tournaments and when matching up, and I can tell you that I'd have done the same thing Bob did...

Flex

Flex, can you clarify if the above means you have been on the receiving end of Stevie's sharking, or just on the receiving end of sharking like what he's accused of? It is unclear from the quoted statement above if you have experience with him in particular.

If it's true that Stevie called a foul, Bob said there was none and kept shooting, then I am coming to the opinion that Bob was right. If he doesn't agree it was a foul, then play must continue. The last US Open 9-Ball tournament I played, my opponent took a jump shot and fouled badly (cueball clearly hit the jumpcue on the way up). But I didn't have a ref watch the shot, so I knew I had no recourse. When he didn't call a foul on himself, I looked over at my friend in the stands, we both rolled our eyes, and that was that. I knew getting into a big argument about it would be fruitless, so I didn't even start.

Still, I have been exchanging some PMs with a respected poster on this board about how even the most gracious of players can have one match that - if looked at in a vacuum - would reflect poorly on his overall level of sportsmanship.

It seems these two players have exuded professionalism throughout their careers; let's give them both the benefit of the doubt and look to the late, great Jack Colavita's famous words of wisdom in a situation like this: "Whatever happened was said in the heat of battle... let's move on."

- Steve
 
jayburger said:
by getting on here under a alias"flex" and talking down about "stevieboy" it is obvious to me that you certainly do not know very well,if at all. you brought up matching up, and you must have been on the losing side of one of those matchups(lots of people have) and have been left with a bad taste in your mouth. you are basing your opinions of a person on "intuition and pictures" and coming to the conclusion that someone is not your kind of guy. lol. i am currently looking at the cover of the mrch edition of inside pool mag. with stevie on the cover and i think billiards digest(?) recently put him on the cover and did a article on him as well. luckily for stevie, these two publications don't share your opinions.

I choose to remain anonymous online; it's my choice. Nevertheless, I express my true opinions, and those who know me understand me to be a no-nonsense guy.

I have never met Stevie, and my opinion on this issue has nothing to do with knowing him personally or not. I know players who do things, reprehensible things, in the middle of matches or tournaments that one would never expect them to do. It can be rather shocking at times to see what some people will do even for very small amounts. I know one fellow who won't hesitate to cheat if he's down when playing a $2 set. It's something about his character, and it isn't pretty. I know another who will switch balls from one side to another in a $5 game of one pocket. I've seen plenty of others engage in blatant sharking, which one would never expect them to do, if it suits their current situation.

I could care less if someone is on the cover of a magazine. If they got there doing good, that's great. If they got there by less than honest means, that's another thing.

As for my reading of people based on their looks and actions, any police officer does the same thing, as do military officers, and successful business people as well. Turns out I went to check out the pretty good pictures on AZ in the players' profile section of him interacting with people, as well as at the table. If you don't understand where or how intuition and analysis comes into play in this regard, perhaps you should try to figure it out.

Peace,

Flex
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Flex, can you clarify if the above means you have been on the receiving end of Stevie's sharking, or just on the receiving end of sharking like what he's accused of? It is unclear from the quoted statement above if you have experience with him in particular.

If it's true that Stevie called a foul, Bob said there was none and kept shooting, then I am coming to the opinion that Bob was right. If he doesn't agree it was a foul, then play must continue. The last US Open 9-Ball tournament I played, my opponent took a jump shot and fouled badly (cueball clearly hit the jumpcue on the way up). But I didn't have a ref watch the shot, so I knew I had no recourse. When he didn't call a foul on himself, I looked over at my friend in the stands, we both rolled our eyes, and that was that. I knew getting into a big argument about it would be fruitless, so I didn't even start.

Still, I have been exchanging some PMs with a respected poster on this board about how even the most gracious of players can have one match that - if looked at in a vacuum - would reflect poorly on his overall level of sportsmanship.

It seems these two players have exuded professionalism throughout their careers; let's give them both the benefit of the doubt and look to the late, great Jack Colavita's famous words of wisdom in a situation like this: "Whatever happened was said in the heat of battle... let's move on."

- Steve
Very well said.No one should be taking anyones side here,WE WERE NOT THERE!
 
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