Ask me too

Thanks Guys.

I've read that before.

The thing is that there is a lot of discussion & opinion, etc. but no real definitive study that I have seen that indicates that looking CB or OB 'last' or during the stroke yields more precise tip to intended cue ball contact for one over the other.

While I can certainly consider possible advantages to both (like what Fran pointed out about the OB 'last'), it seems that there are no conclusive findings of which I am aware.

To say one is better than the other certainly seems a bit speculative unless a reason why can be confirmed.

One may be able to hit the cue ball more precisely if looking at the CB while stroking but will that yield a more precise intended CB to OB contact as alignment might suffer a bit.

Conversely looking at the OB during the stroke may yield a better alignment but will the tip to CB intended contact suffer a bit.

For me, I am wondering why I seem to be unconsciously 'gravitating' to looking at the CB longer & during the stroke than I have for 46 years since going to playing with TOI. And...the thing is that I hear the ball go into the back of the pocket on the makes...but...I see the misses. Knowing where & why the mis is important & good but why am I not also seeing the makes?

There seems to be a correlation there & I am fairly sure that I am not coming up on the stroke, but...my eyes may be 'looking up' & that would not be the quiet eyes that have focused on the OB area as I have had for so many years.

I'm sure I'll figure it out with a bit of focused effort to do so as I just noticed the correlation Tuesday.

Thanks again guys,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Thanks Guys.

I've read that before.

The thing is that there is a lot of discussion & opinion, etc. but no real definitive study that I have seen that indicates that looking CB or OB 'last' or during the stroke yields more precise tip to intended cue ball contact for one over the other.

While I can certainly consider possible advantages to both (like what Fran pointed out about the OB 'last'), it seems that there are no conclusive findings of which I am aware.

To say one is better than the other certainly seems a bit speculative unless a reason why can be confirmed.

One may be able to hit the cue ball more precisely if looking at the CB while stroking but will that yield a more precise intended CB to OB contact as alignment might suffer a bit.

Conversely looking at the OB during the stroke may yield a better alignment but will the tip to CB intended contact suffer a bit.

For me, I am wondering why I seem to be unconsciously 'gravitating' to looking at the CB longer & during the stroke than I have for 46 years since going to playing with TOI. And...the thing is that I hear the ball go into the back of the pocket on the makes...but...I see the misses. Knowing where & why the mis is important & good but why am I not also seeing the makes?

There seems to be a correlation there & I am fairly sure that I am not coming up on the stroke, but...my eyes may be 'looking up' & that would not be the quiet eyes that have focused on the OB area as I have had for so many years.

I'm sure I'll figure it out with a bit of focused effort to do so as I just noticed the correlation Tuesday.

Thanks again guys,
Rick
Click to expand...



Kind of like saying dropping the elbow yields more action on the CB, right? :D
 
BeiberLvr said:
Kind of like saying dropping the elbow yields more action on the CB, right? :D
Click to expand...

Who made that definitive stand alone statement?

I can't believe anyone would make such a statement. That must be someone distorting the facts to try to get back at someone.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Who said that & when?
Click to expand...

You, plenty of times. Maybe not that exact sentence, but in a lot of threads you've gone on and on about how much more you get out of the CB by using a piston/elbow drop stroke. When there is zero evidence to back up that claim.

I was just pointing out the irony in your statement in this thread. In a friendly way, of course.
 
BeiberLvr said:
You, plenty of times. Maybe not that exact sentence, but in a lot of threads you've gone on and on about how much more you get out of the CB by using a piston/elbow drop stroke. When there is zero evidence to back up that claim.

I was just pointing out the irony in your statement in this thread. In a friendly way, of course.
Click to expand...

Friendly? Right.

Like others you are wrong....again.

Just as before you do not understand the issues & try to put words in peoples mouths that do not belong to them to distort the issue & define it how you want it to be defined.

Friendly? Right.

I knew it was a mistake to point out to you that the question was originally about beginners & not anyone with a grooved stroke.

I gave you the benefit of doubt. It was obviously a mistake.

I hope you find your way...in more ways than one.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Thanks Guys.

I've read that before.

The thing is that there is a lot of discussion & opinion, etc. but no real definitive study that I have seen that indicates that looking CB or OB 'last' or during the stroke yields more precise tip to intended cue ball contact for one over the other.

While I can certainly consider possible advantages to both (like what Fran pointed out about the OB 'last'), it seems that there are no conclusive findings of which I am aware.

To say one is better than the other certainly seems a bit speculative unless a reason why can be confirmed.

One may be able to hit the cue ball more precisely if looking at the CB while stroking but will that yield a more precise intended CB to OB contact as alignment might suffer a bit.

Conversely looking at the OB during the stroke may yield a better alignment but will the tip to CB intended contact suffer a bit.

For me, I am wondering why I seem to be unconsciously 'gravitating' to looking at the CB longer & during the stroke than I have for 46 years since going to playing with TOI. And...the thing is that I hear the ball go into the back of the pocket on the makes...but...I see the misses. Knowing where & why the mis is important & good but why am I not also seeing the makes?

There seems to be a correlation there & I am fairly sure that I am not coming up on the stroke, but...my eyes may be 'looking up' & that would not be the quiet eyes that have focused on the OB area as I have had for so many years.

I'm sure I'll figure it out with a bit of focused effort to do so as I just noticed the correlation Tuesday.

Thanks again guys,
Rick
Click to expand...

Rick, I'm reminded of some players who have claimed in the past to use specific aiming systems to help them get out of a slump, and later no longer felt the need to use them. I won't mention names but I believe it's because the systems they used helped to make them more conscious of what they were doing and looking at, and that they were breaking the bad habit of shooting without really 'seeing' what they were looking at. This is a very common habit players can fall into over time.

Maybe that's what you're doing by looking at the cue ball last. Maybe it's an awareness of the cue ball that may have evaded you for some time --- that you're just starting to get back again. Maybe that's why it feels good to you.
 
FranCrimi said:
Rick, I'm reminded of some players who have claimed in the past to use specific aiming systems to help them get out of a slump, and later no longer felt the need to use them. I won't mention names but I believe it's because the systems they used helped to make them more conscious of what they were doing and looking at, and that they were breaking the bad habit of shooting without really 'seeing' what they were looking at. This is a very common habit players can fall into over time.

Maybe that's what you're doing by looking at the cue ball last. Maybe it's an awareness of the cue ball that may have evaded you for some time --- that you're just starting to get back again. Maybe that's why it feels good to you.
Click to expand...

Fran,

Thanks. I think we have a misunderstanding somewhere. I did not say that it feels good to me because it doesn't.

Since playing with CJ's TOI, I have just found myself looking longer at the intended spot on the CB & then more so as time went by until now I have found myself watching it from the beginning of the stroke up until contact or nearly contact. I never did that before. For over 46 years I have looked at the the CB area during the entire stroke except for those odd shots that looking at the CB is 'better'.

Tuesday I noticed that I hear the more firm shots hitting the pocket without really seeing them do so. But...if I mis, I see the mis. There has to be something there. As I said I am fairly sure that I am not raising up but my eyes are & perhaps my head just a bit.

I think that it might be that I have come to realize that with shooting with TOI the tip hit has to be precise or too much squirt will come into play. For all the time that I have been shooting with english I was never that concerned because I was almost always hitting more than one full tip off center with the focus on the spin/speed ratio.

The concepts are entirely different. I guess I am just not comfortable enough with TOI to totally trust that I will not hit too far off center so I am looking at the intended spot on the CB. The TOI works quite well, except for the ones that for some reason I see the mis. Perhaps my subconscious knows something that I don't & is telling me to watch & learn.

Also, if I look at the OB before initiating & during the stroke for TOI, it is not nearly as effective & there are more slight misses.

Now FYI, my grip & stroke has migrated for using TOI too. It is firmer & more in my hand & my stroke is more firm & campact too.

So...that could be what is causing me to need to look at the CB more & during the stroke.

Now when I shoot with english or on the vertical axis I can & will look at the OB area but I also go back to my old 'grip' & stroke.

Tuesday was the first time back in nearly 3 weeks since I tweaked my back hitting golf balls. So...that might be part of it too.

It's no big deal. I just found it interesting along with the coincidence of the other thread with the similar topic. I'm sure I will be able to figure it out with a bit of effort now that I have realized it.

I may be in a catch 22 situation. Because while I like TOI & see it as very effective, I do not want to lose my old connection & stroke. For that reason I always shoot a couple of racks my old way after playing with TOI. It's sort of like having two Friends of the opposite sex that you like very much & that like you too. Sooner or later you will have to chose one. The TOI may be the new girl, but I might be married to the 'english' girl.

Thanks again & as always,
Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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Quiet Eye Duration, Journal of Motor Behavior , 2002, vol 34, no 2, 197-207
A. Mark Williams
Robert N. Singer
Shane G. Frehlich


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
My computer is giving a harmful warning for the Quiet Eye PDF.

Anyway I went through a few reroutes & detours & came to where it relates putting in golf to billiards & it says to stay focused on the back of the golf ball during the duration of the putting stroke, which would be the same as the cue ball in billiards.

So why is it that the OB last seems to be the predominant method suggested now.

Someone stated somewhere that Scott Lee change from teaching the CB last to the OB last. Why the change & when? And why is this Quiet Eye being referred to when it seems to be going against what is being suggested.

Could a misinterpretation have been made & has snow balled?

There seems to be much interest on the subject by quite a few lately per other threads.

I have just noticed a change for myself after 46 years that I attribute to going to TOI, so I too am interested, this time for myself & not for everyone else's benefit.

Best Wishes to All,
Rick
 
Wrong article.

Download PDF on www.focusband.com

Or google quiet eye PDF

First link from focus band.

Not one from prrformsncemindmanagement.com
ENGLISH! said:
My computer is giving a harmful warning for the Quiet Eye PDF.

Anyway I went through a few reroutes & detours & came to where it relates putting in golf to billiards & it says to stay focused on the back of the golf ball during the duration of the putting stroke, which would be the same as the cue ball in billiards.

So why is it that the OB last seems to be the predominant method suggested now.

Someone stated somewhere that Scott Lee change from teaching the CB last to the OB last. Why the change & when? And why is this Quiet Eye being referred to when it seems to be going against what is being suggested.

Could a misinterpretation have been made & has snow balled?

There seems to be much interest on the subject by quite a few lately per other threads.

I have just noticed a change for myself after 46 years that I attribute to going to TOI, so I too am interested, this time for myself & not for everyone else's benefit.

Best Wishes to All,
Rick
Click to expand...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
Okay,

That is all about focus & time of focus & detail of focus.

Watch Jack Nicklaus's eyes before & when he putts.

Again, the conclusion is to look at the ball during the stroke & not the hole or secondary target. That would be the cue ball & not the object ball.

So I repeat my post #91.

Why then is the OB 'last' during the stroke now being advocated by seemingly most instructors here?

It seems that support is being given to contradict that 'logic'.

What, if anything, am I missing, or has not been revealed?

I may be missing something. It would seem so or someone else has made a mistake.

Best Wishes to All,
Rick
 
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In golf you are standing tall, looking down at the golf ball. In that case it makes sense to look at the golf ball last. You would have to swing the club with your head turned sideways if you were to look at a target out several yards beyond the golf ball.

That is not unlike the stance on a masse shot or jump shot where the player is standing tall and looking down at the cue ball. I look at the cb last on those shots.

From the perspective of looking down at something where you can't see peripherally any significant distance after that point, sure, why not make that your primary target....it's all you can see, anyway.

----But not when I can get down low. It's a whole other ball game for me and that's when I see my best by looking at the ob last.
 
FranCrimi said:
In golf you are standing tall, looking down at the golf ball. In that case it makes sense to look at the golf ball last. You would have to swing the club with your head turned sideways if you were to look at a target out several yards beyond the golf ball.

That is not unlike the stance on a masse shot or jump shot where the player is standing tall and looking down at the cue ball. I look at the cb last on those shots.

From the perspective of looking down at something where you can't see peripherally any significant distance after that point, sure, why not make that your primary target....it's all you can see, anyway.
Click to expand...

Hi Fran,

There have been several pro golfers that have putted or tried putting while looking at the hole or the 'away' target. Some had some 'success'. I tried it to see what it's like & it's not for me.

While your differentiation between the two certainly seems applicable, I still do not understand why this study & findings are being offered to seemingly support looking at the OB during the stroke (as I have for 46 years).

I understand & agree with the reasons you gave in another one of your posts. Jack Nicklaus surveyed everything pre putt & took it all into account, even what he did not see but could remember.

The picture of angle, distance, time for the CB to travel under a certain speed regarding spin/swerve, etc. & the feed back & creating a subconscious data base are all important.

So...why am I now evolving into looking at the CB during the stroke? Is it because that data base in no longer applicable when I'm now playing with the new found TOI.

As always, Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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Based on past posts I thought you were interested in eye patterns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Based on past posts I thought you were interested in eye patterns.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the attempt to help.

But no, I was not looking for any eye pattern help or info.

I just do what feels right with no defined locked in method or pattern.

But... can you direct me to the Expert Info. that Neil said the instructors use to support advocating looking at the OB 'last' or during the stroke?

I would appreciate that as I am now evolving the other way after 46 years.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
I agree..... in golf the situation is different in that respect

FranCrimi said:
In golf you are standing tall, looking down at the golf ball. In that case it makes sense to look at the golf ball last. You would have to swing the club with your head turned sideways if you were to look at a target out several yards beyond the golf ball.

That is not unlike the stance on a masse shot or jump shot where the player is standing tall and looking down at the cue ball. I look at the cb last on those shots.

From the perspective of looking down at something where you can't see peripherally any significant distance after that point, sure, why not make that your primary target....it's all you can see, anyway.

----But not when I can get down low. It's a whole other ball game for me and that's when I see my best by looking at the ob last.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree..... in golf the situation is different in that respect. You are really looking at hitting the ball with the club, so that's more relevant to the cue ball/object ball relationship - the golf club is more like the cue ball in this case.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, I agree..... in golf the situation is different in that respect. You are really looking at hitting the ball with the club, so that's more relevant to the cue ball/object ball relationship - the golf club is more like the cue ball in this case.
Click to expand...

Hi CJ,

I understand your perspective on this 'target' wise. Some might say that you are contradicting yourself based on some past statements but I get it based on backing it out from the 'real' target, a part of the pocket. I recently explained to someone the importance of seeing what part of the pocket the ball goes into due to the dynamic nature of using the squirt/deflection or even when using english because a dynamic adjustment can be made.

Now, what do you think of my new found issue. Have you read that I have evolved into looking at the cue ball during the stroke since playing with TOI after 46 years of looking at the OB area.

I 'real eyesed' last Tuesday that I am hearing the balls go into the back of the pocket but I am not see them go in. BUT...I am seeing when I mis & how I mis. There has to be something there.

Do you have any ideas why & can you recommend a cure that can be quickly put into the subconscious?

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Wrong article.

Download PDF on www.focusband.com

Or google quiet eye PDF

First link from focus band.

Not one from prrformsncemindmanagement.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
ENGLISH! said:
My computer is giving a harmful warning for the Quiet Eye PDF.

Anyway I went through a few reroutes & detours & came to where it relates putting in golf to billiards & it says to stay focused on the back of the golf ball during the duration of the putting stroke, which would be the same as the cue ball in billiards.

So why is it that the OB last seems to be the predominant method suggested now.

Someone stated somewhere that Scott Lee change from teaching the CB last to the OB last. Why the change & when? And why is this Quiet Eye being referred to when it seems to be going against what is being suggested.

Could a misinterpretation have been made & has snow balled?

There seems to be much interest on the subject by quite a few lately per other threads.

I have just noticed a change for myself after 46 years that I attribute to going to TOI, so I too am interested, this time for myself & not for everyone else's benefit.

Best Wishes to All,
Rick
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Tony:

Putting the sly/coy poke at instructors aside (i.e. the misinterpretation and snowballed thing), concerning the bolded part, you might direct Mr. OCD to none other than The 99 Critical Shots in Pool by Ray Martin and Rosser Reeves.

Page 23 of that classic work has this:

"A perfect pendulum also enables a player to keep his eye on the object ball. This is the way he shoots. He never keeps his eye on the cue ball on the last stroke."​

There you have it -- in print, and proof that this has been taught for literally decades. (Ray Martin's book has been out since 1977, and this has been taught far longer than that.)

-Sean
 
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