At what point does practice become counterproductive?

Bob Callahan

Bob Callahan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In another thread, someone said they thought Shane practices 12 hours a day...it could be too much. He might do just as well with less. In most activities you need consolidation time...and too much practice can lead to staleness.

In your practice sessions do you notice a plateau, or--even worse--a decline in performance after awhile?

How long can you practice before you start to fade?
 
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I find it's when I stop enjoying it and I look at it solely as practice.

r,

Greg
 
If you practice bad habits, no amount of practice time will be productive.

Lately I've been doing 4-5 hour practice sessions, and that 4th or 5th hour is when things start to go downhill.
 
When I was 18 years old and just starting to play pool some really great players were friends of my father and Little Al Romero and Rafael Martinez told me that you should try to practice about an hour each day to to keep your stroke inline. Back then 35 years ago I would play on our home table for 12 or more hours a day and it never had any negative affect.

Now I go to the pool hall and after a couple of hours my back starts to hurt. I am probably lucky that the pool hall shuts down at 2am because I would probably stay there longer. I would say that after thirty to sixty minutes I really get into a zone and play well for my speed. And that is when I am having fun and don't want to quit but they kick me out. It is the next day that my back hurts the most.

I think it depends on each person. If shane can practice for 12 hours a day, who is going to say it is nonproductive with the way he plays.
 
practice, practice, practice

This like many other things is subjective & relative to the individual practicing. Like others when I was young I practiced long hours. I was learning, I had shall we say more logs on the fire, my stamina was phenominal. I practiced extensively & I played extensively. If I was not roofing or sleeping I was playing pool!!! It was my drug of choice, I snorted it like it was cocaine. Absolute obsession! NO it was not too much. It is the the very reason I developed the skills I possess today. The consolidation theory is a nice theory, I suppose it is relative to different things at different stages. Behaviorial scientist state that for a new behavior to become habitiual it needs to be repeated around 3000 times. Ergo the old addage practice, practice, practice. I have a table next to me now in my living room. I am much older now. My stamina is not what it once was which I find amusing because I still find myself playing till the very wee hours of the night. My better half works nights & I will practice & then play often till 3 am. That is not uncommon lately as I am in an earnest attempt to get back in stroke. I will offer this, it is not a matter simply of the amount of time that makes practice counterproductive, but when one knows (& you always do) that the practice session is no longer productive, it is time to cease practice. Perhaps it is time to simply play pool or time to retire for the day. An interesting footnote here I was just recently reading an old interview with Effern Reyes in which he stated he practiced/played 2 hrs in the morning & 2 hrs in the evening. That model obviously fit him very well. Experiment, find what works for you individually. Good luck & good pool. Billy Bones :thumbup:
 
Bob Callahan said:
In another thread, someone said they thought Shane practices 12 hours a day...it could be too much. He might do just as well with less. In most activities you need consolidation time...and too much practice can lead to staleness.

In your practice sessions do you notice a plateau, or--even worse--a decline in performance after awhile?

How long can you practice before you start to fade?
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It really depends on what you're practicing, how you practice it, and what level of competence you're at for that skill.

For entirely new motor skills (such as learning to play for the first time, or changing something in your mechanics), studies have shown that the human brain is not very good at learning different motor patterns within a short time span. The example often referenced is a pianist who learns one musical piece, may forget how to play it if they learn another piece immediately after. In the context of pool this means that practicing more than one different motor skill in the same practice session could be counterproductive. For example, practicing the break and a normal playing stroke in near succession might be detrimental (since these are usually different strokes requiring the activation of different motor units, leading to a different motor pattern).

But that's just a small part of it. After you become moderately skilled with a given motor skill your goal from a biophysical point of view is not to learn something new, but to more efficiently activate that motor pattern on demand. In this regard studies have shown that masters of certain tasks requiring fine motor control have motor networks (within their brain) that are highly efficient when compared against non-masters. This means that a non-master must exert more effort to activate the motor pattern, which arguably leads to more inconsistency in executing it. At this point in the learning process repetition and active effort to repeat the EXACT motor skill are very important. Over time this will lead to your brain literally rewiring itself to better perform the activity. (It's amazing how adaptive our bodies are.)

The story doesn't end there; we also have to consider declarative memory. This is the type of memory that stores general knowledge. We all know in pool that just having a perfect stroke is not enough, and that strategy and pattern play are extremely important. This type of information is more abstract and is stored in a type of declarative memory called semantic memory. Also very important is our ability to predict the path of balls after a collision, this comes from a bit of our knowledge of the game and also a great deal of personal experience. And that information is stored in a type of declarative memory called episodic memory. The most important thing to understand about human declarative memory is that it's autoassociative, which means it automatically associates with other similar memories, which enable it to be recalled by recalling those similar memories. There are many examples of this in everyday life, have you ever had the experience of losing something and then recalling where it was by mentally walking through the places you were last? As it turns out, the easier it is to remember this "associated" memory, the easier it is to recall the memories associated to it. This is the basis for all mnemonic systems.

So what does that all mean for pool? Well it goes right back to the first sentence I wrote in this post. What is the goal of your practice? If you're trying to teach yourself something new, like a new stance, or perhaps made some other adjustment to your mechanics, you probably want to go with shorter but highly focused practice sessions. If your goal is to become more consistent with your game your may want to put in longer, and very specific sessions (ie. doing drills that directly relate to what you want to improve on). Or if you're looking to improve your pattern play or general "feel" of the table, then you would want to be mindful of any mental fatigue and take regular breaks to stay fully lucid (the same way you would prepare yourself to learn in school). In the case of declarative memory, there’s a large amount of variance from person to person. Some people learn very quickly and easily, some don’t. Some people have great mental stamina and some are exhausted after 10 minutes. You’ll know how you learn best and can adapt that into your practice. Generally the ability to learn and recall new things declines sharply after 40 minutes, but like I said, this varies.
There are hundreds of books written on this subject and the science of it goes much deeper than what I've mentioned here. If you're really interested in it you should read Motor Control And Learning: A Behavioral Emphasis and The Art of Memory. Two phenomenal books on the subject.
 
You can pratice as long as you have energy. Then take long layoffs so the thirst comes back. The world revolves around you.
 
Bob Callahan said:
In another thread, someone said they thought Shane practices 12 hours a day...it could be too much. He might do just as well with less. In most activities you need consolidation time...and too much practice can lead to staleness.

In your practice sessions do you notice a plateau, or--even worse--a decline in performance after awhile?

How long can you practice before you start to fade?
Click to expand...

Bob:

With me, it's a predictable cycle. When I first walk-in and screw my cue together, the moment I hit the table, guns are-a-blazing. I'm running out from everywhere. Then, after about a few racks, I hit a brick wall -- I start missing shots and I've lost that gangbusters "fire." At that point, it will take me, on average, about 20 minutes more of sputtering play like this, before my play is re-ignited again. It's funny, too. On my league night, the other teams know, if they are playing my team, to "time" the placement of players in the matches such that their best player plays me during this predictable slump that will occur right after I walk in.

It's usually a combination of things that gets my play back on track again, e.g.: 1.) focus on fundamentals -- stance, stroke, etc.; 2.) probably blood sugar -- I'll have a candy bar or a soda, and the "haze" covering my eyes then starts to dissipate; I see the edges and outlines of the balls better, especially at distance. (That latter one concerns me, and is at the top of my mind these days -- I just need to go see a doctor.)

So it's up to the player him/herself to discover "what works" for him/her. Shane obviously discovered, at some point, what works for him. Granted, a little bit of that "spark" has faded since Shane first burst onto the scene (IMHO, I don't think he's playing his best right at the moment), but he's experimenting (e.g. started wearing a glove) and as a true student of the game, he'll find out what's wrong and right the ship.

Could it be that he needs a rest for "consolidation" as you say? It might be. But then again, only Shane knows his inner clock. As long as he has enthusiasm for the game, he'll know when it's time for a break (i.e. he'll notice any drop-off in enthusiasm long before we will). It's not up to us to say what's right for him, or prescribe remedies.

-Sean
 
I don't think you can practice too much. I have always thought this, and until recently didn't even realize it was a contentious issue.

The single most important quality for playing well is passion and willingness to improve. I have no idea how a person can say with a straight face that a guy who plays an hour a day will improve more than a guy who practices 15 hours a day and just can't get enough and never stops thinking about pool.

IMO, here is the HUGE misunderstanding when it comes to this topic. People say and think that after a certain amount of practice, it becomes "counterproductive." I think that is totally ludicrous. Practice could become neutral, or level off in its help for a person's game. But I highly doubt practice frequently becomes counterproductive. That is total hogwash. It is about as logical as saying you can learn French faster in the US studying a couple hours a day vs living in France and speaking it all day, everyday. Just not true, and definitely not counterproductive.
 
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The Chinchilla said:
I don't think you can practice too much. I have always thought this, and until recently didn't even realize it was a contentious issue.

The single most important quality for playing well is passion and willingness to improve. I have no idea how a person can say with a straight face that a guy who plays an hour a day will improve more than a guy who practices 15 hours a day and just can't get enough and never stops thinking about pool.

IMO, here is the HUGE misunderstanding when it comes to this topic. People say and think that after a certain amount of practice, it becomes "counterproductive." I think that is totally ludicrous. Practice could become neutral, or level off in its help for a person's game. But I highly doubt practice frequently becomes counterproductive. That is total hogwash. It is about as logical as saying you can learn French faster in the US studying a couple hours a day vs living in France and speaking it all day, everyday. Just not true, and definitely not counterproductive.
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After about an hour, your attention span and ability to focus really take a nose dive.

You start to daydream even though you're drilling yourself through your pre-shot routine.. it's just not working anymore.

With your logic, you could work out 15 hours a day and you would only get bigger.

Doesn't work that way, after about an hour the same thing happens in the weightroom. Your muscles need time to recover.
 
The Chinchilla said:
I don't think you can practice too much. I have always thought this, and until recently didn't even realize it was a contentious issue.

The single most important quality for playing well is passion and willingness to improve. I have no idea how a person can say with a straight face that a guy who plays an hour a day will improve more than a guy who practices 15 hours a day and just can't get enough and never stops thinking about pool.

IMO, here is the HUGE misunderstanding when it comes to this topic. People say and think that after a certain amount of practice, it becomes "counterproductive." I think that is totally ludicrous. Practice could become neutral, or level off in its help for a person's game. But I highly doubt practice frequently becomes counterproductive. That is total hogwash. It is about as logical as saying you can learn French faster in the US studying a couple hours a day vs living in France and speaking it all day, everyday. Just not true, and definitely not counterproductive.
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I agree with you on this one. I've tried to say this myself in the past. I think the part that the "structured" practice crowd is missing is the diminishing returns effect. Their expectation is that 30-60 minutes of structured practice is better than say 3 hours of unstructured practice. My contention is that you can have both. The first hour or so of your practice time can be highly structured and focused then you can begin to let loose a bit and have some fun. At some point, it probably does get counter productive to keep shooting. But sometimes it seems like it takes some really long sessions to really get in stroke.

So I say structured practice followed by more shooting until you can't focus at all anymore is better than just 30 minutes of highly focused practice. I can't imagine any pro would be were they are without playing for countless unfocused hours during their formative years.
 
paksat said:
After about an hour, your attention span and ability to focus really take a nose dive.

You start to daydream even though you're drilling yourself through your pre-shot routine.. it's just not working anymore.

With your logic, you could work out 15 hours a day and you would only get bigger.

Doesn't work that way, after about an hour the same thing happens in the weightroom. Your muscles need time to recover.
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Let's not confuse sports here. I don't think pool is quite as laborious as weightlifting. I don't really wanna go back and forth on this topic, I have stated my opinion and I respect others'. But I will say that if a player's max concentration time is near one hour, you have some serious work to do on lengthening that (both mentally and physically), by quite a bit too.

Also, why have we equated ability to concentrate with ability to learn/experiment and put things in muscle memory? There is some VERY poor logic out there, sorry but there is. The benefits may not be there as much as that first hour as in say the 10th hour (I think even that is debatable), but you are still getting FAR more benefit overall with the 10 hours. The way people get better in sports is, um, practice. Once you reach a plateau, you may need to change what you practice. The answer to this question is really simple.... who's better all things being equal.... a guy who logs in 3000 hours of practice in a year, or the guy who logs in 300? It is really an easy question, you are only rationalizing if you pick the 300.

To be honest, I think this "1 hour theory" on practice is something people tell themselves because they don't want to put in the hard work -- or can't put in the work.... or can't play well themselves for more than an hour. But don't misinform other people due to your own lack of concentration abilities or passion to improve. And I have no idea why instructors say this. Maybe to make clients feel good about playing only an hour a day (guessing).

To be a little less contentious, i'll bring up Bruce Lee. I think his philosophies for sports are superlative. He would probably say that 1 hour can work for certain people, but he'd probably add nobody should put limits like that on anything. He said you must go beyond your limits.... I don't think you can do that on an hour, but others do obviously :)
 
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The Chinchilla said:
Let's not confuse sports here. I don't think pool is quite as laborious as weightlifting. I don't really wanna go back and forth on this topic, I have stated my opinion and I respect others'. But I will say that if a player's max concentration time is near one hour, you have some serious work to do on lengthening that (both mentally and physically), by quite a bit too.

Also, why have we equated ability to concentrate with ability to learn/experiment and put things in muscle memory? There is some VERY poor logic out there, sorry but there is. The benefits may not be there as much as that first hour as in say the 10th hour (I think even that is debatable), but you are still getting FAR more benefit overall with the 10 hours. The way people get better in sports is, um, practice. Once you reach a plateau, you may need to change what you practice. The answer to this question is really simple.... who's better all things being equal.... a guy who logs in 3000 hours of practice in a year, or the guy who logs in 300? It is really an easy question, you are only rationalizing if you pick the 300.

To be honest, I think this "1 hour theory" on practice is something people tell themselves because they don't want to put in the hard work -- or can't put in the work.... or can't play well themselves for more than an hour. But don't misinform other people due to your own lack of concentration abilities or passion to improve. And I have no idea why instructors say this. Maybe to make clients feel good about playing only an hour a day (guessing).

To be a little less contentious, i'll bring up Bruce Lee. I think his philosophies for sports are superlative. He would probably say that 1 hour can work for certain people, but he'd probably add nobody should put limits like that on anything. He said you must go beyond your limits.... I don't think you can do that on an hour, but others do obviously :)
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I'm talking about practice when I say one hour, not gambling as I can go for well beyond that without feeling any kind of fatigue.

Practice is a different animal. Face it, you get bored. There's no money on the line, no ones watching for the most part. After about an hour or so, you're not even getting 50 percent of what you were getting when you first started... but that's just for me.

I have had days where I can go 5 hours straight no problem. Only thing is, those days I tend to be on fire.

It's different strokes for different folks I guess in the long run. When I started out I was playing 4-5 hours a day yes. But now I play only once a week.. that's all. I have a table at my house that I might shoot 50 shots in all day... and those are only cross table straight in shots to keep the stroke in line.

So once a week, and maybe an hour of practice a day and I can run with most any of the shortstops i've seen here ( tourney play that is, I haven't gambled in a while now )

It really is different strokes for different folks I guess. Long practices do nothing but fatigue me. If I practice 3-4 hours a day, i'll quite honestly shoot like sh*t everytime I show up at the sunday tourney.
 
I practice as much as I can, it can be tough when you are in an action room which my home room is because within 5 minutes someone wants to play and when you explain you came to practice they look at you like you got 3 effin eyes, lol. I do practice 1-2 hours but rarely more than that, as soon as I start messing around and not focusing and concentrating I quit, that is how you start doing dumb stuff and smacking balls around, that is bad practice.
 
When you wake up and find that your head is stuck in the pocket and you can't get it out. :D

On a serious note from my own personal experiences, it is when I start feeling unfocused, fatigued, and irritated that I find that practice is counter productive.

I'll add that constant interruptions such as someone wanting to play, music too loud, etc. can also be counter productive just as easily.

Like most others, when I go in to try and practice, inevitably, there is always someone wanting to play. I have said no on some occasions and said yes on some occasions but I've found that just the initial interruption itself disrupts the concentration and I tend to just go ahead and play since that concentration is broekn anyway.
 
When you lose focus. For me the time varies between a minute and five or six hours. I find my best focus happens when I'm working on a specific problem.
 
I dont know where i heard it but I heard that after an hour of the same thing you brain will start to stop retaining. BUT Muscle memory is different so i have been told it depends on what aspect im working on. If im using brain i tend to do and hour then take a break for an hour then will continue, that way the brain has had its time to rest and take in what it has learned.

That dosent mean stop playing completely either. I tend to warm up for 15 min, do an hour or so of practicing a cretin skill, then just play a few racks of 14.1 or 10 ball to let the brain settle on what i was working on.

I also know people who will practice for an hour on say position shots, then go into working on practicing his stroke for an hour then back to position for an hour, thus he is working on Brain power with his position play, and Muscle memory with his stroke practice. All in all I think it is what works best for you.
 
Never

Bob Callahan said:
In another thread, someone said they thought Shane practices 12 hours a day...it could be too much. He might do just as well with less. In most activities you need consolidation time...and too much practice can lead to staleness.

In your practice sessions do you notice a plateau, or--even worse--a decline in performance after awhile?

How long can you practice before you start to fade?
Click to expand...

You can never practice enough. But I guess you need to get enough sleep.................
 
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