Atlas Billiard Supplies fined $162,000 for illegal ivory export

[robertno1pool]

Ivory Busters

So if they would have instead sold their ivory domestically in the U.S.A. to make a profit, then there would never had been a fine/probation/violation?


All I read was the newspaper article on improper paperwork since the ivory, wraps, etc. were exported.

Does someone have a link to more details that will clear this up?



Second point is what is the probation supposed to cover and what are the terms of the probation?

 

[risky biz]

No I am not joking. There were 50 tons of ivory or something like that. Do the math, they say the their system is broken. But not something better manpower, equipment couldn't fix. So sell the confiscated tusks and buy more anti-poaching stuff.

Our cops do it ALL the time with confiscated items from the drug busts. You don't see anyone telling the cops to waste a Mazarati by burning it do you? No, they sell it and upgrade their equipment. That is the RIGHT way to help solve the problem. Anyone that thinks that this burning did anything except waste a lot of saleable ivory thinks the tooth fairy is real.

JV

How does a mind produce such a nonsensical statement? The police don't sell the heroin unless they're breaking the law themselves. Traffickers in illegal ivory should have their assets confiscated and sold to support anti-trafficking efforts. That's what's done with drugs. Is that understandable, I hope? The illegality itself of drugs is another issue that isn't relevant to the main concern here.

Also- it would be hypocritical as hell for trafficking in ivory to be outlawed while the entity that made it illegal engages in the practice itself. If they were doing that you'd be whining about that, wouldn't you? Admit it.

 

[risky biz]

Atlas was charged with multiple paper work violations. They were NOT charged with illegally obtaining and the trafficking of illegally obtained endangered species parts.

The purpose of the paperwork is to identify illegal trafficking. If the legal limit is 10 tons of ivory and paperwork identifies 20 tons being sold then the authorities know there's something illegal going on and they will have a clue about where to look for it. Atlas went to great lengths to undermine that system.

 

[risky biz]

Elephants are important. They're more important than a building which will house dozens of people. They're more important than plumbing which will carry fresh water to thousands of people. They're more important than farmland which will feed thousands of people. I'm with you. I don't care too much for those people either. Most of them don't even have shoes...let's just condemn them to death. You know, for the elephants.

Your brilliant idea that African people can lift themselves from poverty by selling elephant ivory until all the elephants are dead has an off chance of being believed by someone who happens to be on LSD while they're reading it.

 

[risky biz]

$3,000 worth of ivory. $150,000 fine.

i don't know why america is getting a reputation as a bad place to start a business. :scratchhead:

Yeah. If you murdered someone for a mere $3,000 and you got caught you could get life in prison. For a mere $3,000. Doesn't make any sense, does it?

 

[classiccues]

JV, I didn't realize maserati's where living animals at one point? I am not a liberal, actually quite conservative, but I do vote Dem. the world is not about money, it's not about exploting it for man's use. Wake up. Do you have children or grand children? Do you care about a future where your children will grow up knowing about animal that where around in their daddy's time but not their own?

THEY ARE DEAD ALREADY.. TO STOP MORE FROM DYING YOU NEED BETTER VEHICLES AND MORE MANPOWER. BUT THEY CLAIM THEY CANNOT FINANCE THAT.. WELL THEY JUST BURNED THE FINANCIAL SOLUTION. Do you get it, they were dead already, you can't bring them back, but you CAN finance the solution to stop the slaughter.

Money is nothing more than a tool and if you think it is anything else, then I feel sorry for you.

You're right and its one less tool the conservationists and rangers now have.

Burning the tusks is the only way to keep illegally poached ivory off the market.

But the need for the ivory is still there.

I've enjoyed your posts and your website, but I don't agree with your outlook on animal on animal relationships. How do you feel about gorilla hand ashtrays?

Do other animals use gorilla hand ashtrays? Or are you asking me if I think its ok to poach gorillas? Same scenario, you cannot bring back the ones they confiscate.

Also curious, does your feelings toward animals stem from a strong religious upbringing?

I have no problems with animals. Does your feelings towards humans stem from a strong religious ubringing?

JV

 

[classiccues]

How does a mind produce such a nonsensical statement? The police don't sell the heroin unless they're breaking the law themselves. Traffickers in illegal ivory should have their assets confiscated and sold to support anti-trafficking efforts. That's what's done with drugs. Is that understandable, I hope? The illegality itself of drugs is another issue that isn't relevant to the main concern here.

Also- it would be hypocritical as hell for trafficking in ivory to be outlawed while the entity that made it illegal engages in the practice itself. If they were doing that you'd be whining about that, wouldn't you? Admit it.

Traffickers in the ivory normally do not have assests. Have you seen pictures of the poachers they catch? You have to do the next best thing.

BTW if the cops could sell the drugs legally, which BTW the governments of Africa CAN do with the ivory, they would.

Do you get it? BTW on your last statement, no it wouldn't. Because you brain surgeon they have ALREADY sold off confiscated ivory so it has set a precedent for being a viable option. You should get some history on this stuff before you make a comment on it.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Your brilliant idea that African people can lift themselves from poverty by selling elephant ivory until all the elephants are dead has an off chance of being believed by someone who happens to be on LSD while they're reading it.

He is talking about these types of events...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54d_1317020715

JV

 

[risky biz]

Traffickers in the ivory normally do not have assests. Have you seen pictures of the poachers they catch? You have to do the next best thing.

BTW if the cops could sell the drugs legally, which BTW the governments of Africa CAN do with the ivory, they would.

Do you get it? BTW on your last statement, no it wouldn't. Because you brain surgeon they have ALREADY sold off confiscated ivory so it has set a precedent for being a viable option. You should get some history on this stuff before you make a comment on it.

JV

I'm the brain surgeon? That's a good one. So the police in your America should confiscate heroin from traffickers and sell it themselves? You don't grasp how selling heroin promotes heroin addiction? In the same manner, selling confiscated ivory promotes the ivory trade. Is it that hard to figure out?

So "they" sold confiscated ivory which automatically, in your opinion, means it's a good idea? The only thing missing is the logic.

 

[risky biz]

Originally Posted by risky biz View Post
Your brilliant idea that African people can lift themselves from poverty by selling elephant ivory until all the elephants are dead has an off chance of being believed by someone who happens to be on LSD while they're reading it.

He is talking about these types of events...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54d_1317020715

JV

That isn't a reason to make elephants extinct. It's a reason to have better wildlife management. Why is your conclusion that human beings can't survive without making elephants extinct? Oh, wait- I get it. Because you want ivory on your pool cue.

 

[TheThaiger]

Oh, wait- I get it. Because you want ivory on your pool cue.

Yup. It's always with the money.

 

[LC3]

Unfortunately, this doesn't surprise me. Although JV is incorrect about this being a liberal issue, he is correct about a lot of people not caring. But many people do.

In another post about elephant ear, I asked how cuemakers could reasonably assure customers that ivory and other protected materials were legally sourced. Then I sat back and listened to the crickets.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Pleae read more carefully...

No one has the right or responsibility to tell me what my "moral responsibilities" are. If you think you do you are a liberal bigot of the first order. You are entitled to your opinions just as others are. Who declared you the sole owner of the truth?

Please save me from liberal, bigoted do gooders that burn witches at the stake while claiming to know what is best for everyone else!

Let Africans run Africa. Most American law is created to buy American votes.A lot of Americans are duped in feel good laws that serve no real purpose in Africa or America.

Please show me where I tell you what YOUR moral responsibilities are. Calling me a bigot achieves very little. Speaking for myself only, I was not born with a knowledge of ethics and morality. I learned these things as I grew older. I learned from the writings and examples of others. They didn't tell me what my moral responsibilities are, they offered their views and I made informed decisions on how I live my life. My decisions are rarely based solely on what makes me feel good at the moment. I'm one of those "do gooders" who makes decisions based on what's best for everyone on this planet, because my decisions don't only affect me!

It's not my opinion that tells me we are destroying our planet and causing our own starvation. My "opinion" is based on extensive studies AND considering both sides of every issue.

It would be nice if we "let Africa run Africa" (do you , like "W", think that Africa is a country?), but sadly our foreign policy has a profound affect on all other nations (and continents, like Africa).
"American law is created to buy American votes"?? American law is largely created (ostensibly by Congress) to protect American business interests, regardless of what those "interests" do to the economy, workers or the environment.

Now, you have the right to insult me again, and the right not to listen to any other viewpoints. I won't bother to respond to any more name-calling.
If you're curious about my education, send me a PM.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

 

[classiccues]

I'm the brain surgeon? That's a good one. So the police in your America should confiscate heroin from traffickers and sell it themselves? You don't grasp how selling heroin promotes heroin addiction? In the same manner, selling confiscated ivory promotes the ivory trade. Is it that hard to figure out?

So "they" sold confiscated ivory which automatically, in your opinion, means it's a good idea? The only thing missing is the logic.

I do get it, but we aren't talking heroin. Heroin is illegal and there is no outlet to sell it by the proper authorities. However, guess what, you can do that with the ivory because its been done before. In doing so they can get more manpower to stop the poachers, and lessen the need for ivory by introducing it into the market place.

By burning that ivory they INCREASED the desire, or need for more ivory, hence more killing.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Originally Posted by risky biz View Post
Your brilliant idea that African people can lift themselves from poverty by selling elephant ivory until all the elephants are dead has an off chance of being believed by someone who happens to be on LSD while they're reading it.

That isn't a reason to make elephants extinct. It's a reason to have better wildlife management. Why is your conclusion that human beings can't survive without making elephants extinct? Oh, wait- I get it. Because you want ivory on your pool cue.

... and wildlife management also included culling, just an FYI.

JV

 

[Chopdoc]

I like ivory.

Fines suck.

That's all. :grin:

Back to your regularly scheduled programming......

 

[chevybob20]

No I am not joking. There were 50 tons of ivory or something like that. Do the math, they say the their system is broken. But not something better manpower, equipment couldn't fix. So sell the confiscated tusks and buy more anti-poaching stuff.

Our cops do it ALL the time with confiscated items from the drug busts. You don't see anyone telling the cops to waste a Mazarati by burning it do you? No, they sell it and upgrade their equipment. That is the RIGHT way to help solve the problem. Anyone that thinks that this burning did anything except waste a lot of saleable ivory thinks the tooth fairy is real.

The problems with liberals is they want people to "donate" money to the cause, well here is the truth, no one outside of the liberals care and they really just have big mouths and small wallets when it comes to walking the walk vs talking the talk. So it will be just more liberal whining with ZERO getting done about it.

JV

Absolutely true. The money they want to donate is someone else's.

Oh, and I forgot, they are so much more intelligent than us stupid self reliant people on the right. Don't believe me? Look at the response above. Donny THINKS I'm uneducated and unfit to argue the truth. Also, us righties are out to destroy the environment.

Sell the harvested ivory and invest it in land management. Common sense again.

 

[cueaddicts]

Absolutely true. The money they want to donate is someone else's.

Oh, and I forgot, they are so much more intelligent than us stupid self reliant people on the right. Don't believe me? Look at the response above. Donny THINKS I'm uneducated and unfit to argue the truth. Also, us righties are out to destroy the environment.

Sell the harvested ivory and invest it in land management. Common sense again.

Yep, sadly, common sense is just not so common anymore....

 

[bdcues]

I hope you where joking. Otherwise you just don't understand and I don't think you ever will. Please tell me you where joking. I think the fire is fitting. Why would one think it is ok to sell the tusks of protected yet murdered animals. All is does is propagate the desire for ivory.

I would like to think that when my son is my age(30 more years), that he will be able to see live elephants, not a small reminder of them, as in inlays or a joint. I was under he impression all ivory used by makers was pre-ban? Am I wrong?

Hell, we might as well take down all the trees too, houses need to made and asses need to be wiped. Let's kill all the sharks too, but only for their fins. How about koala wrap, I bet that is nice and soft.

-----WTF people, these are pool cues-----

I think my next wrap on my cue is going to be Stupid White Republican. There is no way anything else is softer in the belly.

The first large burn of ivory was the brain child of Dr Richard Leakey in 1989. They burned 12 tons - 24,000lbs - in an attempt to stop the demand for ivory. In a later book written by Leakey he professed that Kenya would have been better off selling the ivory to pay for the game reserve, wardens, guards, etc and admitted that burning the ivory was not the right thing to do. The latest burning was 5 tons - 10,000 lbs - and is another gross misuse of the ivory.

Kenya has taken some of the blame for letting the illegal trade continue -

"Save the Elephants placed some of the blame on Kenya itself. "Unfortunately, whenever an arrest is made, the sentence carried out by the Kenyan government tends to be minimal and poachers are often back 'in the bush' within 48 hours," it stated."

China and Japan are the biggest importers of legal and legal ivory. -

"Born Free urged regulators to reimpose a full trading ban and "withdraw 'approved ivory trading nation' status from China and Japan," nations that receive illegal ivory shipments for use in carvings and traditional medicines."


They are also the only ones who have profited from the legal sales of tusk from Zimbabwe, Namibia and Botswana of a sale of 108 tons - 216,000 lbs in 2008. China claimed they needed the ivory to make signature stamps. In 1997 they also bought 48 tons or 96,000 lbs of ivory from these same governments.

Sales of tusks in the US are miniscule compared to the number of tusks the Chinese and Japanese have acquired "legally" and illegally. Sales of illegally obtained tusks in the US is much smaller yet.

Even under the CITIES regulations elephant hunting is legal. With a permit an American can go kill and elephant, cut off the tusks and bring them back to America and then HE CAN DISPOSE OF THEM ANY WAY HE SEES FIT.

The money from the legal sales of ivory greatly benefited the elephants and those that are trying to protect them. Kenya is not helping it's cause by burning the ivory or releasing the poachers back to do it once again. Poachers only poach that which they know there is a buyer for. Get the Asians to quit buying poached items (while your at it get the Japanese to quit killing the whales if you can) and the issue with elephants greatly changes.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I think the other admissions has to do with the size of the fine or at least I certainly hope so.... If it was a 1 time deal and they got hit with 150k I'd have to say it was time to burn Washington to the ground and start over with just the original constitution.....

Why not do this anyway lol? The problem for businesses is that the government has become a business, and they are bigger and stronger. Man we are screwed up...

KMRUNOUT